Author Topic: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)  (Read 9707 times)

Offline Kaptein

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2010, 02:37:46 pm »
if all else fails invent a siege mode, whereas a ship "deploys" and becomes immobile, and at the start consuming alot of cpu processing ships nearby
like a controlled halt thats way more efficient than the opposite :)
if thats something youd consider

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2010, 03:27:24 pm »
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I like the munitions boosting change as a step in the right direction, but how smart is it?
Currently it's just going by first in the list that hasn't been boosted to its max (0 boosts for immune, 1 boost for electric shuttles, 4 boosts for everything else).  I could change it to prioritize the highest base attack power ships.

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Admittedly I haven't tried this in game yet, but that seems a little extreme.  Considering fleet sizes in this game, boosting 10 ships isn't even worth mentioning.
Yep, some pretty dramatic changes, mostly due to the intense outcry against the previous system (where Light Starships ruled the day and munitions boosters were only so-so useful).  The numbers can be changed quite quickly if people can agree in which direction they should go :)

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A freaking Spire Starship having half the max boost number of a tech I munitions booster is silly.
I won't argue the point.  What numbers do you think would be better?  Or would you agree with one or more of the alternative systems suggested here?

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Personally, I'm really in favor of the munitions mechanic where ships can only be boosted once to 2x
I agree with you that 5x is pretty intense.  I've already put the variable in for limiting electric shuttles to 1 boost (to 2x), I could just change the default max boost count from 4 to 1, and maybe allow a few special ships to still get 5x or whatever.

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This new implementation worries me because it's likely to not boost the ship in range with the highest DPS.
Yea, it was an initial attempt.  It can be easily modified to boost the ship in range with the highest base attack power, which should generally mean highest DPS.  Do you think that would help, or do you think we need to scrap the count-cap thing?

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In short - with this patch you made interplanetary munitions booster most powerful structure around maybe next to raid engine.
I'm not sure I understand, I don't think any of this changes the interplanetary munitions booster; or do you mean that it nerfs human-player boosting to the point that the AI's IMB is a night-and-day contrast?

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^ This.
Remember, I-KP, you were the one who said they'd do almost anything to get the light starship munitions boost to go completely away ;)

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Keith -- I agree that the munitions caps are not a good idea in practice because they introduce more randomness. Rather, lower the number of ships that can provide more boosting, etc, along the lines of fiskbits suggestion will probably be better.
Would a combination of:

- prioritize boosts by base attack power (not much more cpu than the old boost-everything-in-range approach)
- ships default to max of 1 boost (like electric shuttles are now)

Fix the problem or should I just scrap the capping?

Thanks for the feedback, everyone :)
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Offline Doddler

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2010, 03:45:17 pm »
I dunno, maybe munitions boosting is fine but the modifier on starships is just crazy?  I mean 1 light starship in the center of your fleet doubles it's effectiveness?  Just by building 5 light starships you magically increase your fleets damage by 5x?  That sounds a little off the wall.  When I first heard of the mechanic I was expecting 10%-20% boost in damage, not flat out multipliers.  I mean, maybe if they were more reasonable boosts.  Like light starship is a 10%-20% boost, and more advanced starships maybe 20%-30%.  If you were to max out the multiplier with those changes, you'd have to have a really mean group of ships.

Offline TheWordWillSetYouFree

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2010, 04:09:22 pm »
How about boosting something else other than attack?

I think we can all agree that starships should help a fleet be "better".

I can think of two ways of making this happening:

1) Attack boost
2) Shield boost

Now the thing is we have 2 units that fulfill those roles at the moment. If we have starships giving a flat shield boost then people will argue that the shield booster is useless and so forth, which would be correct.

I propose that starships be a jack of all trades. This would mean that they are able to boost the power of the fleet while leaving a big noticeable use for the specialist boosting units.
I think the boost power of the starships should be very limited, maybe a linear progression to spire = 2x boost? Then leaving the specialist boosters up to 4x possibly.


Offline I-KP

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2010, 04:24:37 pm »
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^ This.
Remember, I-KP, you were the one who said they'd do almost anything to get the light starship munitions boost to go completely away ;)
Eh..?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2010, 04:32:46 pm »
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^ This.
Remember, I-KP, you were the one who said they'd do almost anything to get the light starship munitions boost to go completely away ;)
Eh..?
Ah, sorry, I had misremembered "Anything -- well, maybe not anything -- to repeal this latest munitions boosting gets my vote because", which does not equal what I said earlier.  Perhaps I should check before citing :)
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Offline orzelek

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2010, 04:42:41 pm »
As for interplanetary boosters - they are night and day - one building that boosts all units across number of planets which is usually very hard to approach in some organized way due to it's effect.

This building was main reason I proposed adding more levels of transport ships - to be able to deliver fleet into vicinity of it and have a go at destroying. planets mark III and IV that have planet wide attack boosts can be very hard to cross since transports will die there very quickly, and entering with fleet means also heavy losses.

With previous mechanic taking fleet with light starships and having it at 5x multipliers was a bit of counter to that.
I think that limiting of the munition boost effect to 2x-3x would be very sensible - especially if it's possible to implement smaller increments of bonus than full integer multiplier.

Ideas about giving starships and munition boosters different attack multiplier but leaving them without caps to number of ships seem reasonable.
If it's doable I would propose numbers like that:

lights +10% boost
flagship +20% boost
zenith and spire +25% boost
munition booster MkI + 20% and add 5% per mark level.

All these bonuses would be cumulative with cap around 2x or 3x bonus.

Interplanetary munition booster could be then nerfed a bit to give 50% bonus not triple like it is now.

Offline I-KP

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2010, 04:46:53 pm »
Ah, sorry, I had misremembered "Anything -- well, maybe not anything -- to repeal this latest munitions boosting gets my vote because", which does not equal what I said earlier.  Perhaps I should check before citing :)
It’s all good (and just a game after all).  :)
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Offline Excession

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2010, 05:40:42 pm »
I agree there was a big issue over munitions boosting, both by spire line and munitions booster ships (both of which were simply too cheap for such a huge effect).

I think the idea of a ships giving a small boost is fine  -it's just the multipliers that are way out of whack and unbalancing.

Maybe the base boost should be say +10% (from the base rather than compounded over other boosts) rather than +100%?

That way a full pack of 5 light starships would boost by +50% rather than 500% but would still affect the whole fleet in range, and a full pack of 16 MK I munitions boosters would do +160%.

You coul always play with those figures but they seem much more 'in line' to me...the one thing though is if (in late game) players are 'needing' to use the 5x boost to crack tough AI planets...if that is the case the offensive power of player ship might need a hike anyway..

Or you could switch starships to boosting defense instead, for example.


Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2010, 05:51:25 pm »
Yea, it will take a bit of rejiggering but I think the path to munitions boosting sanity lies in fractional boosts instead of whole number multipliers, and going back to "boost all in range" or at least very high caps.  One thing I want to avoid is a munitions-boosting equivalent of the mrs exploit of spam-clicking your ships on top of the booster to pack an arbitrary quantity into that space.

How does that sound?
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Offline Black

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2010, 06:07:12 pm »
You should also consider making bonuses non-stacking. It is much easier to balance bonuses when the only one that has an effect is the strongest one. It also encourages people to spread out their starships instead of massing them together. In the general game, you should label bonuses by their source. For example, starship presence is a source. Heavy Defense is another source, viz. Interplanetary Munitions Boosters. Take the largest bonus from each type of source and add them together.

The only sources I can think of are Starships, Fleet ships, and Heavy Defense. But this mechanism gives the game a little bit more resilience against future additions.

Mock Stats:

Mk I Starship : 10% Bonus
Mk II Starship: 25% Bonus
Mk III Starship: 50% Bonus
Mk IV Starship: 75% Bonus
Core Starship: 100% Bonus

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2010, 07:53:52 pm »
Yes, if we go back to all-in-range boosting the no-stacking rule is feasible, as the higher-level ships would not have to "run" first in the boost-checking loop, the loop would just override any lower boost with a higher boost if found.

Ok, so far I'm thinking:
- make boost amount more granular (so Light Starships can apply a 25% boost or something instead of 100%, and high level munitions boosters can apply 175% or something instead of 100%) and scale the boosts from say 25% to 175% from light starship through to core starship to munitions booster I through IV.
- raise simultaneous boosting caps to 1000 or something in proportion to "how many ships could reasonably fit into the boosting range of this ship" so as not to restrict the total boosting capability in any normal case (i.e. only when spam-click force-stacking ships on top of the booster)
- if more than one boost applies to a specific ship, apply only the highest boost
- certain ships (just electric shuttles for now) will have a boost cap lower than the highest boost available (100% for the shuttles, though I guess we could make it lower)

Any objections to that?

On a related note, do others of you agree with orzelek about the Interplanetary Munitions Booster?  That can be nerfed, I just wasn't aware it was in need.

Thanks!
Keith
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 07:55:27 pm by keith.lamothe »
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Offline Black

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2010, 08:06:03 pm »
The IMB is pretty intense. Perhaps lower the boost to +100%.

Possibility:

What you could do is have tiers of IMB's, like there are tiers of Ion Cannons. The current IMB is a pretty big terrain feature, and it's not as if it is bad to see it once in a while. You could make them more common, but they would be mostly lower tier ones and the bonus wouldn't be as large. The Mark III IMB would have a truly fearsome multiplier, just like the current one does.

More terrain can only make the game more interesting.

Offline Kjara

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2010, 08:13:46 pm »
First let me summarize what I see as being the major problems:
Munitions boosters are either too powerful if they are the only major source of boosting, or useless if their function can be achieved by the fleet line.
Finally, fleet starships are pretty much a must have right now(well light starships), as they not only boost, but also give a decent chunk of firepower on top of that.


Let me throw out one last idea to solve these.

It has a few key points(and borrows some ideas from previous posts):
A) remove boosting from the fleet line completely.  
B) create a support line of starships, has three tiers, tier 1 munitions boosts, tier 2 munitions boosts + speed boosts within a range, tier 3 gives munitions, speed and shield boosts(say 1k,3k,5k knowledge cost and 3 ship cap).
C) limit boosting to 1x per unique source--this would mean if you have support mk 1, the max boost you can have is 2x, if you have support mk 1 and munitions mk 1, you can have a 3x boost, munitions mkI-IV, the full 5x boost.

What effect would this have?  Well if you don't have munitions boosters, you max at a 4x boost, and its very expensive knowledge wise to get there.
Thus munitions boosting gives you an early advantage in how quickly you can increase your boosting, and has a higher max but it isn't the only real source of boosting.


Switching topics
Yes, if we go back to all-in-range boosting the no-stacking rule is feasible, as the higher-level ships would not have to "run" first in the boost-checking loop, the loop would just override any lower boost with a higher boost if found.

Ok, so far I'm thinking:
- make boost amount more granular (so Light Starships can apply a 25% boost or something instead of 100%, and high level munitions boosters can apply 175% or something instead of 100%) and scale the boosts from say 25% to 175% from light starship through to core starship to munitions booster I through IV.
- raise simultaneous boosting caps to 1000 or something in proportion to "how many ships could reasonably fit into the boosting range of this ship" so as not to restrict the total boosting capability in any normal case (i.e. only when spam-click force-stacking ships on top of the booster)
- if more than one boost applies to a specific ship, apply only the highest boost
- certain ships (just electric shuttles for now) will have a boost cap lower than the highest boost available (100% for the shuttles, though I guess we could make it lower)

Any objections to that?

On a related note, do others of you agree with orzelek about the Interplanetary Munitions Booster?  That can be nerfed, I just wasn't aware it was in need.

Thanks!
Keith

Granularity is fine as long as precision isn't an issue.

First, I'm really not really in favor of any ship cap on the number of boosts.  All that does is make swarm ships(which usually have smaller sizes and are easier to fit around starships) worse than more powerful ships with lower caps(would you rather have 250 beam frigates boosted or 250 laser gatlings?).

Making so that one ship overrides another ships boost would pretty much mean that people wouldn't bother with light starships again once they got any ships that give a better boost.  I'm much more in favor of something like I gave above where you can get a boost from each unique booster in range of you.  In your example, say that light starships give a 25% boost, as do flagships.  If you are in range of both a light starship and a flagship, you have the 50% boost, however just being in range of a flagship shouldn't be as good as being in range of both.

Having lower boost caps on some units is a great idea.

Offline Iskabis

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Re: Prerelease 3.028 (Bugfixes, balance tweaks, munitions adjustments)
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2010, 09:22:56 pm »
Not to sidetrack things from the munition discussion...

But could we make forcefields immune to translocation?  The first few times of losing a station because a single translocator teleported my forcefield halfway across the system were, I confess, quite amusing.  Especially watching the force field sloooooooowly trek its way back to where it was supposed to be.  Only to get translocated again before it made it half-way back.  Poor thing.  But I'm kinda assuming it isn't intended to work that way, since it pretty much completely negates force fields.

Also, it seems like cloaked decoy drones (cloaked due to that cloaker starship thing) still draw all fire in range, even when you don't have any form of cloak detection, and therefore, shouldn't be able to see them to shoot at them.  Perhaps decoy drones should be uncloakable?  I could be wrong; I'm just guessing as to what must have been happening.  Looked pretty funny, actually.  Thought my ships had gone insane or something when they started firing at random points in space while ignoring the enemy that was shooting at them.

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere, or if I shouldn't have posted this here.  But since I was running 3.028, it seemed like the right place for it.