Author Topic: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)  (Read 14485 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2009, 12:37:55 am »
I'm off for some sleep.

I knew I was forgetting to do something.

Good night!!!

Thanks!  But before I go, here's a new version with a big wad of new features in it:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,209.msg1732.html#msg1732
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Offline Revenantus

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2009, 12:38:48 am »
Okay;

Like I was saying... Long lost twin...

... did your family ever lose a baby in Britain?

Let's say ships in a friendly system with a generator never lose charge, but regenerate charge more quickly if they are in close proximity to a reactor. Having to manage the energy requirements of my local defensive garrisons would be incredibly tedious and demand attention that I would rather devote to my main assaults.

As Admiral said, having ships lose charge when firing seems like a good plan. At the moment I'm inclined towards the idea that movement itself has no effect on charge levels. This creates the potential for a passive-move command, ordering ships to move to a location whilst conserving charge for attacking a specific target.

Ships inflict 100% damage when charge >50%. 75% damage when charge <50%. 50% damage when charge <10%. Ship cannot fire and moves at half speed if charge = 0%. This sounds very interesting but is complex and will play total havoc with the current ship balances.

Turrets should also have charge, which will obviously have no effect on them when built in friendly systems with generators, but will require 'combat generators' to be set up when establishing beach heads.

I also found a sprite for the Battery Starship;



Offline Revenantus

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2009, 12:39:20 am »
I'm off for some sleep.

I knew I was forgetting to do something.

Good night!!!

Thanks!  But before I go, here's a new version with a big wad of new features in it:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,209.msg1732.html#msg1732

Good night, Admiral.

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2009, 12:45:20 am »
Let's say ships in a friendly system with a generator never lose charge, but regenerate charge more quickly if they are in close proximity to a reactor. Having to manage the energy requirements of my local defensive garrisons would be incredibly tedious and demand attention that I would rather devote to my main assaults.

Totally with you on this one.  I agree that it would be too tedious to micromanage, and I also like the reactor proximity thing.

As Admiral said, having ships lose charge when firing seems like a good plan. At the moment I'm inclined towards the idea that movement itself has no effect on charge levels. This creates the potential for a passive-move command, ordering ships to move to a location whilst conserving charge for attacking a specific target.

Well, this is fairly counter to what I was thinking, but this does offer more strategic opportunities, especially with a passive-move mode (which I wouldn't want to add without a feature like this).  This basically makes the charge almost a cross between ammo and fuel.  I wonder if that will be confusing.

Ships inflict 100% damage when charge >50%. 75% damage when charge <50%. 50% damage when charge <10%. Ship cannot fire and moves at half speed if charge = 0%. This sounds very interesting but is complex and will play total havoc with the current ship balances.

Yeah, I agree with you on the ship balances.  I was thinking that ships should just act as normal until the charge hits zero, and then they move and reload at half speed.  That's penalty enough to warrant a charge, which is really all we're going for, I think.  Having the behavior change at several partial-charge points is not really very hard to program, but I think it's hard to really manage with a fleet of hundreds of ships, you know?

Turrets should also have charge, which will obviously have no effect on them when built in friendly systems with generators, but will require 'combat generators' to be set up when establishing beach heads.

Yeah, I think that sounds good.  Perhaps their recharge rate is hurt even more than the others, since they don't have a movement aspect.

I also found a sprite for the Battery Starship;


:D
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Offline darke

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2009, 03:02:06 am »
For the turtle thing, that is a good point.  That's something else that has drifted a bit out of balance with all the changes over the past month.  I'll make a change so that its reinforcements that are from waves will instead be lower-tech, like the incoming waves would have been.

Cool.

For the CounterSpy, that is true, it will prevent most scouting past planets where there is still a counterspy.  I'm not sorry. ;)  You can still get past them with sufficiently large numbers of scouts, or with a bunch of other cloaked ships bunched in with your scouts to flood the counterspy like you otherwise might an ion cannon.  The point of the counterspy is to make the player play half-blind without a lot of scouting intel, so this has just made it even more effective.

Assuming they're not obnoxious like the Teleport Turtle is and have Tachyon Turrets at every wormhole of every planet they own, it might be a plausable tactic at least early on. :) That way you only need to worry about the "anticloaking ion cannon" effect, rather then have to deal with every ship in sight swarming on them too. I assume the Tech IV Scout is immune to this effect?

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that scout starships are immune to the counter-spy blasts, so that makes them your most viable longer-range scouts in that sort of game...

That would be useful, provided again the AI doesn't blanket their planet with Tachyon turrets. :)

Offline darke

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2009, 04:00:03 am »
Let's say ships in a friendly system with a generator never lose charge, but regenerate charge more quickly if they are in close proximity to a reactor. Having to manage the energy requirements of my local defensive garrisons would be incredibly tedious and demand attention that I would rather devote to my main assaults.

Totally with you on this one.  I agree that it would be too tedious to micromanage, and I also like the reactor proximity thing.

Assuming "one reactor in a planet" heals the ships up at 100% of their regeneration capacity, then it should work. If you had to have a variable number of generators on a planet, and depending on the ratio of generators to number/tech level of ships you had it would charge at a different rate, you'd go quickly insane. Plus you'd probably have to retool the costs of generators and so on, since with almost every assault on a planet, you'd first have to build a dozen generators "charge up" your guys after each assault.

The main issue with this charge thing is that assaulting a planet already gives a strong benefit to playing gopher with the wormholes (pop out, smack a few targets, run back and heal at your safe planet, repeat; it is the only way to really assault the massively overpopulated planets), and this will just will just give additional benefits to what feels like a cheap tactic. The benefits gained from even a half dozen well protected tech I engineers is far more then the cost of having to whack extra reinforcements due to time taken to get out and back, and even the attrition costs of sniper turrets/ships.

Also if all it takes is a generator on the planet to recharge, and you've got portable generators, it just ends up being another thing to drag through the wormhole when you've secured your starting area, like a couple of science labs/scout starship/engineers/whatever.

It just seems to be a large cost in time/attention/GPU (since you'll need to draw the charge bars like health bars so you can tell what level your ships are at, since it's actually even more vital to know then your health if you've got a bunch of ships doing half damage), for very little "fun". It also increases the learning curve too if it's going to be a core mechanic and not something you can turn on/off so it should be as simple and as obvious as possible, and some of these suggestions have been rather complicated. :)

As Admiral said, having ships lose charge when firing seems like a good plan. At the moment I'm inclined towards the idea that movement itself has no effect on charge levels. This creates the potential for a passive-move command, ordering ships to move to a location whilst conserving charge for attacking a specific target.

Well, this is fairly counter to what I was thinking, but this does offer more strategic opportunities, especially with a passive-move mode (which I wouldn't want to add without a feature like this).  This basically makes the charge almost a cross between ammo and fuel.  I wonder if that will be confusing.

I'll vote for "yes" on this one. I'd rather not have to worry about trying guesstimate as to whether I'll have enough charge to attack after I've travelled all the way across the planet or not, that's pretty much the definition of brick-wall style learning curve. :) If there was a way of automatically calculating it, and colouring the part of the line where I'd have less then 25% charge to attack with on a move order for most of my ships, and assuming that all ships had about the same amount of energy-use-per-second it could tell me how many game seconds for the selected ships I could attack for at the end of the move, then I could cope with it.

But I'm starting to think the simple concept of "you need energy to keep ships operating" has quickly morphed into something that only a grognard can love. :)

An attempt from a different perspective, trying to reward the player rather then punishing him (and hopefully being a little simpler as a consequence): :)

Ships gain "overcharge" from sitting around doing nothing (or even defending) in a generator-enabled planet. Say for the sake of an argument, each minute they sit on the planet, gains them a 1% bonus for 30 seconds, maxing out at 20%/10 minutes, which ticks down every 30 seconds whilst they're running around on a planet without a generator until they're back at baseline.

The next extention to this is the number of generator energy points you've got on a planet affects the speed of overcharging. You can display a planet wide basis the ratio of (ships total energy on planet)/(generators total energy on planet) as the recharge speed, maxing out at 200% on the display planet wide.

You can combine this with mobile generator ships. Assuming that a hostile world actually has a -200% drain (which should be the inverse of the bonus above if I've got my math right), then add the mobile generator's bonus to it in the same way you handle the static generators. That way you can slow the decrease of your bonus, plus it gives you an incentive to quickly take out the AI command center and build one of your own, even if it's risky since you can then get an instant bonus from having your stack of generators actually giving you a positive value, rather then negative (since there's no -200% penalty, or whatever), so it gives you a small help to clean up the world that you've essentially conquered, just not wiped out all the enemies yet. :) Especially important for early game when bombers vs a force field can take way too long. :)

There's other tricks you can do with this as well, like having the computer prioritise charging up lower-charged units, by cutting back the charge to the better charged ones and boosting the under charged ones more, so that your attack/defensive force will even out it's overall charge level quicker leading to less stuff the player has to mentally juggle around in combat.

Hopefully this all made sense. :)

Offline darke

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2009, 05:17:52 am »
Now that I think of it, isn't the original idea (charge depletes, ship is 50% effective) just replicating health?

Health * TimeInBattle = Deaths (reduction in force strength)
Energy * TimeInBattle = Half Damage (reduction in force strength)

Health + ( Engineer || RepairShip ) = TimeInBattle++
Energy + ( ParkedOnYourPlanet || Battery ) = TimeInBattle++

I mean, at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the length of time you can shooty, so all we're adding is another bar that keeps track of the same thing that we already keep track of. In fact if we're going to slow shooting *and* movement, it's duplicating both engine health and general ship health! :)

Offline ZarahNeander

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2009, 05:57:46 am »
Shift-left clicking units on the right panel adds them to the selection. Shift-left clicking again does nothing. Basically I've found no way to deselect units with the right panel (correct me if I'm wrong). Would it be possible to make shift-left clicks act as a toggle? I find deselecting 4 labs in a blob of 1200 ships quite difficult.

Kind regards..Pia Kraft

Offline Admiral

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2009, 09:53:59 am »
Now that I think of it, isn't the original idea (charge depletes, ship is 50% effective) just replicating health?

Health * TimeInBattle = Deaths (reduction in force strength)
Energy * TimeInBattle = Half Damage (reduction in force strength)

Health + ( Engineer || RepairShip ) = TimeInBattle++
Energy + ( ParkedOnYourPlanet || Battery ) = TimeInBattle++

Yes, this is true when looked at in this perspective (the total combat strength).

Anyway, another thought I had was about higher tech level ships. Should they have more charge than the lower ones? That would make lower tech level ships better suited for defense and higher tech level ships better suited for raiding parties.

Cheers!

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2009, 10:20:29 am »
Assuming "one reactor in a planet" heals the ships up at 100% of their regeneration capacity, then it should work. If you had to have a variable number of generators on a planet, and depending on the ratio of generators to number/tech level of ships you had it would charge at a different rate, you'd go quickly insane. Plus you'd probably have to retool the costs of generators and so on, since with almost every assault on a planet, you'd first have to build a dozen generators "charge up" your guys after each assault.

A lot of this sort of thing has been addressed in the 1.010C thread, I think.  I think there have been a number of good simplifications, etc, there, and I think that's the best place to continue this discussion for the moment.  But, you had a lot of good points here.  I'll address those that aren't already handled on the other thread.

The main issue with this charge thing is that assaulting a planet already gives a strong benefit to playing gopher with the wormholes (pop out, smack a few targets, run back and heal at your safe planet, repeat; it is the only way to really assault the massively overpopulated planets), and this will just will just give additional benefits to what feels like a cheap tactic. The benefits gained from even a half dozen well protected tech I engineers is far more then the cost of having to whack extra reinforcements due to time taken to get out and back, and even the attrition costs of sniper turrets/ships.

Also if all it takes is a generator on the planet to recharge, and you've got portable generators, it just ends up being another thing to drag through the wormhole when you've secured your starting area, like a couple of science labs/scout starship/engineers/whatever.

These are interesting points.  On the other hand, it does create a new "weak point" for the AI to strike you at, which is interesting.  Plus, arguably the RTS genre is all about logistics and supply chain management as much as it is tactics, and this provides some interesting logistical additions.  But you do make some interesting points -- if the decisions the players make are automatic, rather than varying based on the situation, then this isn't a very effective new mechanic.  In that case, just the existing change to having the reactors be spread out more across the planets would be better as-is.

It just seems to be a large cost in time/attention/GPU (since you'll need to draw the charge bars like health bars so you can tell what level your ships are at, since it's actually even more vital to know then your health if you've got a bunch of ships doing half damage), for very little "fun". It also increases the learning curve too if it's going to be a core mechanic and not something you can turn on/off so it should be as simple and as obvious as possible, and some of these suggestions have been rather complicated. :)

Yeah, I'm totally with you on the complexity thing.  I had originally been thinking of having this as an optional-on feature, but now I'm thinking more simplification in general.  I've been wanting to have a fuel model (optional-on) for a long time, but never could figure it out to my satisfaction.  Hence my excitement here.  You're right about the bars for the ships, of course -- that will be an interesting one to tackle, if this feature is put in place.

I'll vote for "yes" on this one. I'd rather not have to worry about trying guesstimate as to whether I'll have enough charge to attack after I've travelled all the way across the planet or not, that's pretty much the definition of brick-wall style learning curve. :) If there was a way of automatically calculating it, and colouring the part of the line where I'd have less then 25% charge to attack with on a move order for most of my ships, and assuming that all ships had about the same amount of energy-use-per-second it could tell me how many game seconds for the selected ships I could attack for at the end of the move, then I could cope with it.

But I'm starting to think the simple concept of "you need energy to keep ships operating" has quickly morphed into something that only a grognard can love. :)

Yeah.  All that complexity, and what is that really gaining?  From that angle, I'm not loving it.

An attempt from a different perspective, trying to reward the player rather then punishing him (and hopefully being a little simpler as a consequence): :)

Ships gain "overcharge" from sitting around doing nothing (or even defending) in a generator-enabled planet. Say for the sake of an argument, each minute they sit on the planet, gains them a 1% bonus for 30 seconds, maxing out at 20%/10 minutes, which ticks down every 30 seconds whilst they're running around on a planet without a generator until they're back at baseline.

I do really like this idea, because it also reduces the overall learning curve.  It doesn't emphasize weak points as much as I would like, but oh well.  The only downside that I really see is that this will really help player turtles even more, and this game is already fairly easy to turtle in.  So either I'd need to increase the size of AI waves to compensate for this (which would then make the overcharge effects pretty necessary on player planets), or else this needs some other tweak.  But I do like how this is an optional extra mechanic, rather than a basic requirement that the player gets severely punished for not understanding.

The next extention to this is the number of generator energy points you've got on a planet affects the speed of overcharging. You can display a planet wide basis the ratio of (ships total energy on planet)/(generators total energy on planet) as the recharge speed, maxing out at 200% on the display planet wide.

Awesome, I really like this.

You can combine this with mobile generator ships. Assuming that a hostile world actually has a -200% drain (which should be the inverse of the bonus above if I've got my math right), then add the mobile generator's bonus to it in the same way you handle the static generators. That way you can slow the decrease of your bonus, plus it gives you an incentive to quickly take out the AI command center and build one of your own, even if it's risky since you can then get an instant bonus from having your stack of generators actually giving you a positive value, rather then negative (since there's no -200% penalty, or whatever), so it gives you a small help to clean up the world that you've essentially conquered, just not wiped out all the enemies yet. :) Especially important for early game when bombers vs a force field can take way too long. :)

Yeah, I think these are great ideas, too.

There's other tricks you can do with this as well, like having the computer prioritise charging up lower-charged units, by cutting back the charge to the better charged ones and boosting the under charged ones more, so that your attack/defensive force will even out it's overall charge level quicker leading to less stuff the player has to mentally juggle around in combat.

Yeah, stuff like that could be an interesting addition as a second-tier set of features here.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2009, 10:23:43 am »
Now that I think of it, isn't the original idea (charge depletes, ship is 50% effective) just replicating health?

Health * TimeInBattle = Deaths (reduction in force strength)
Energy * TimeInBattle = Half Damage (reduction in force strength)

Health + ( Engineer || RepairShip ) = TimeInBattle++
Energy + ( ParkedOnYourPlanet || Battery ) = TimeInBattle++

I mean, at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the length of time you can shooty, so all we're adding is another bar that keeps track of the same thing that we already keep track of. In fact if we're going to slow shooting *and* movement, it's duplicating both engine health and general ship health! :)

Yeah, I had a similar thought about the engine health aspect.  And I was never completely keen on having the charge being related to shots, but couldn't put my finger on why (other than that it is not very fuel-like).  Hmm.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2009, 10:26:43 am »
Shift-left clicking units on the right panel adds them to the selection. Shift-left clicking again does nothing. Basically I've found no way to deselect units with the right panel (correct me if I'm wrong). Would it be possible to make shift-left clicks act as a toggle? I find deselecting 4 labs in a blob of 1200 ships quite difficult.

Actually, when you shift-left-click a second time, it will continue to add any new ships of that type in there.  For instance, if you select "all" the fighters on the sidebar, and then two new fighers are produced from a dock, you now have all but two of the fighters selected.  Shift-left-clicking a second time would add those last two guys into there.

The way to deselect ships of a certain type (selected from any mechanism) would be to use the blue Selected Units button in the bottom-left area of the screen.  Just click that button, and it pops up a list of all the ship types you have selected.  Just right-click entries to remove them (or hold shift while right-clicking in order to remove multiple).  Let me know if that doesn't work well enough for your purposes, though.  Thanks!
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 1.010B (More Minor UI Tweaks)
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2009, 10:28:29 am »
Anyway, another thought I had was about higher tech level ships. Should they have more charge than the lower ones? That would make lower tech level ships better suited for defense and higher tech level ships better suited for raiding parties.

Excellent thought.  Something like that could work well, I think.  But now I'm questioning this whole line of thinking, a bit.  darke really had some excellent points.  I would like to add in a system that is providing something new and interesting, but not one which is duplicative with what is already there, or which provides too much of a barrier to new players (since now I'm thinking I'd like whatever the new mechanic is to be just a base part of the game, rather than an optional-on thing).
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