Author Topic: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis  (Read 2785 times)

Offline Revenantus

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Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« on: July 04, 2009, 08:01:46 pm »
I'm unable to print the Relative Strength Analysis using Ctrl+Shift+F5.

I'm running Windows Vista Home Premium 32 bit, UAC is disabled. The file simply doesn't seem to appear in the AI War directory, nor is there any in game message suggesting that the file has been created.

If anyone happens to have a Relative Strength Analysis handy would they be kind enough to post it? Thanks.

Offline x4000

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 10:22:29 am »
Sorry, that only works in the versions of the game with a Debug flag set on it.  I should probably make it so that it works if you have the F3 debug output on, so that you guys can also generate it.  I'll do that Monday, but for now here's the most recent one I've created (it takes around 45 minutes on my 2.4Ghz quad to generate all the data for this file, by the way).
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Offline Admiral

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 11:06:22 am »
Should the suffix not be .xlsx? This is the preamble:

Code: [Select]
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<?mso-application progid="Excel.Sheet"?>
<Workbook xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:spreadsheet"
 xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
 xmlns:x="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel"
 xmlns:ss="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:spreadsheet"
 xmlns:html="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

However, Office 2008 for Mac refuses to open it as an Excel file.

Offline x4000

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 05:06:24 pm »
Hmm, you can try it as an xlsx format, but that's not actually what it is.  That's the newer Office 2007/2008 XML format, whereas the format I'm using is the office 2003 format.  It might require a 2003-based converter on the Mac version of Office, I'm not sure.  Here's a version converted into xls format, at any rate (attached).
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Offline Revenantus

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2009, 02:50:01 am »
I have added a page to the community wiki showing the relative strength of the basic ship types in AI war. I hope that it's of use to someone.

I've checked it over for errors briefly but it anyone notices anything out of place please tell me.

I have written some code that takes the raw relative strength xml file and outputs the data in the form of a wiki table. This way if units are ever rebalanced I should be able to update the table almost instantly as long as I have access to the xml file.

If anyone would like any additional tables with any of the other ship types please say - I'll put them up - now the code is in place it's no trouble at all.

http://www.arcengames.com/communitywiki/index.php?title=Relative_Ship_Strength

Offline x4000

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2009, 10:06:47 am »
Nice work!  I added a couple of notes at the top about how to interpret the values in the cells.  I'm quite impressed, it looks really nice and is quite readable. :)
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Offline Admiral

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2009, 11:36:29 am »
Very nice, Rev.

I personally would prefer to see level 2 attacks vs level 1 defense, level 3 vs 2, level 4 vs 3, etc., so I can understand the relative power of the different levels.

I end up trying to keep all my IVs and IIIs alive, as well as my small cadre of C, but maybe it's not worth it.

I recall X mentioned earlier that he trades in 2x I for 1x II (etc.) in the AI to keep ship counts down, but that he thought it was probably a minor advantage to the player that he does that.

Offline x4000

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2009, 11:45:29 am »
I personally would prefer to see level 2 attacks vs level 1 defense, level 3 vs 2, level 4 vs 3, etc., so I can understand the relative power of the different levels.

At the moment, the unit relative export chart doesn't actually include that data, simply because it makes it take around 2 hours for me to generate instead of 45 minutes.  In my upcoming update that will let you guys generate those yourselves, I'll make sure it also includes the ability to generate the FULL chart.

I recall X mentioned earlier that he trades in 2x I for 1x II (etc.) in the AI to keep ship counts down, but that he thought it was probably a minor advantage to the player that he does that.

Yep.  It varies by ship type as to what the relative benefit is, though.
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Offline Revenantus

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2009, 06:51:36 pm »
Tech V / Core ships have been added to;

http://arcengames.com/communitywiki/index.php?title=Relative_Ship_Strength

Tables showing the results of inter tech level battles have been added to a separate page;

http://arcengames.com/communitywiki/index.php?title=Inter_Tech_Level_Relative_Ship_Strength

I separated them because I felt that the original page would become too unwieldy.

x4000 - Thanks for allowing us to generate the xml file!

The data show a few unusual results, notably things such as Anti-Armor IIIs should annihilate Anti-Armor IVs - whether this is accurate or not I haven't tested.

Additionally, vast numbers of battles involving cloaked ships remain unresolved. Is this to do with the new behaviour that states that they will remain cloaked unless ordered to attack?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 06:55:18 pm by Revenantus »

Offline x4000

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2009, 07:06:11 pm »
Tech V / Core ships have been added to;

http://arcengames.com/communitywiki/index.php?title=Relative_Ship_Strength

Tables showing the results of inter tech level battles have been added to a separate page;

http://arcengames.com/communitywiki/index.php?title=Inter_Tech_Level_Relative_Ship_Strength

I separated them because I felt that the original page would become too unwieldy.

Nice!  That's looking really, really good.

x4000 - Thanks for allowing us to generate the xml file!

You bet! :)

The data show a few unusual results, notably things such as Anti-Armor IIIs should annihilate Anti-Armor IVs - whether this is accurate or not I haven't tested.

One thing I should mention, regarding that -- the relative strings DO include the relative ship caps.  So in other words, the simulation would pit perhaps 3 vampires against 10 cruisers and give you the results, or 3 vampires against maybe 30 lazer gatlings, etc.  That tends to give you reasonable results based on if you split your fleets up by pure percentages, but then if you group more (100% of your vampires all in one place, etc), then you can get really different results based on rates of fire and recharge, tactical positioning, combinations of ships, etc.  So, while these numbers are very accurate in a certain sense, they also don't tell the full story.  A very skilled player can use even a weaker ship type in a much more effective manner than the raw numbers might indicate.

As for the higher-level ships, those all have a slightly reduced ship cap compared to their lower-level versions.  So it might be 9 Mark IV anti-armors against 10 Mark IIIs, or something along those lines.  When the ships are powerful enough against themselves to one-shot each other or nearly so, then the raw numbers will carry the day in terms of the Mark III anti-armors against Mark IVs.  The ships are not made for primarily fighting against themselves, however -- the extra bonuses and such of the Mark IV anti-armors make them a lot stronger against the ships they are designed to fight against, namely the armors and the other ships of that sort. 

Additionally, with a few of the ship types one of the bonuses of the higher ship levels is a better cost-to-benefit ratio.  So, in most of the ships that means that the benefits go up a lot, and the costs go up not quite as much, but in the case of a few ships that means the cost stays the same or even goes down a little (I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I seem to recall one like that), while the benefit only goes up maybe %5 or 10%.  These charts include relative strengths and ship caps, but the economic side of things is not taken into consideration with them.  So that can also be a factor in giving some slightly strange-looking results when you look at this one dimension of ship performance.

That's the important thing to remember with these charts, overall.  I actually went through a ton of iterations over months with this, trying different metrics and metric combinations in order to arrive at results that were as meaningful as possible.  This is what I arrived at, but it's still just showing a few dimensions out of a multidimensional data set.  Plus, there's that whole strategy tactics aspect that can really affect performance of the ships for better or for ill. 

One thing I'd love to see sometime in the future, and which I think would be helpful for a lot of players, is advice on a per-ship-type basis.  Clever ways in which players are using ships, or maneuvering ships, to get the best results.  I've included a fair bit of that already in the official wiki, but that's just my own playstyle and I know I haven't thought of nearly everything.  So when people come up with things that they think are particularly cool or effective, I'd love it if they would share, either here on the forums or else in the community wiki.  I think those will tell the true stories of the ship strengths, but from a raw numbers standpoint these charts you've organized provide a great way to look at it.  Much more easy to parse than my original xml!
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Offline Revenantus

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2009, 07:15:40 pm »
Quote
One thing I should mention, regarding that -- the relative strings DO include the relative ship caps.  So in other words, the simulation would pit perhaps 3 vampires against 10 cruisers and give you the results, or 3 vampires against maybe 30 lazer gatlings, etc.

Ah, I forgot to account for the relatively reduced numbers of the Tech IV ships - that puts it all into perspective.

Quote
One thing I'd love to see sometime in the future, and which I think would be helpful for a lot of players, is advice on a per-ship-type basis.  Clever ways in which players are using ships, or maneuvering ships, to get the best results.  I've included a fair bit of that already in the official wiki, but that's just my own playstyle and I know I haven't thought of nearly everything.  So when people come up with things that they think are particularly cool or effective, I'd love it if they would share, either here on the forums or else in the community wiki.  I think those will tell the true stories of the ship strengths, but from a raw numbers standpoint these charts you've organized provide a great way to look at it.  Much more easy to parse than my original xml!

I'd been thinking about this too - sounds like a great idea. I'll set up the framework for people to start adding tips.

Is there anywhere I can obtain the ship data (Health, Attack, Speed, etc) in an easy to access format? If not, no worries - I'll copy it down from the space docks.

Offline x4000

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Re: Unable to Print Relative Strength Analysis
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2009, 07:21:21 pm »
I'd been thinking about this too - sounds like a great idea. I'll set up the framework for people to start adding tips.

Awesome, great idea -- thanks!

Is there anywhere I can obtain the ship data (Health, Attack, Speed, etc) in an easy to access format? If not, no worries - I'll copy it down from the space docks.

At present, there is not anywhere that has all of that data in an exportable format.  I can put together an export for this, however -- I'll have something put together by tomorrow for that.  This changes from time to time, as you know, so it seems like it would be much easier to make this an export that other people can re-run at will, rather than something that always has to be manually checked and re-checked.  Great idea!
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