Poll: which basic human unlocks need a buff?

[chemical_art]

The big problem I have with Engineer IIIs and Mk. III triangle ships in particular is actually Leech Starships and Parasites.  Why research and build them when you can go knock over a Mk. III world and steal them?  I haven't gotten the engineers yet, in my latest game, but the last time I played a parasite-heavy game that's all I needed... and in my current game, I've definitely got most of a cap of triangle ships (along with everything else a Zenith Descendant will give you) out of mercenary parasites and 3 caps of leech starships.

I do this vaguely. In general, I only produce engineers if huge AIP games, because most of the time if I need to increase production, I build more constructors. My econ has a hard time keeping up with 15 constructors, so I don't engineers to help them.

[Radiant Phoenix]

I do unlock Engi IIIs but that's because I usually assign my whole cap of IIs to my primary production site (usually the homeworld) and IIIs are used for FacIVs or Fabs.

I autobuild a Mk1 and Mk2 engineer (and remains rebuilder) on every planet, and use Mk3s for primary production areas.

The Mk3 Engineer always gets unlocked eventually, because it helps me go, "I have a cap of both resources. I have a Spire Colony Ship. In fifteen seconds (or so), I will have a Spire City Hub."

MkIII fleetships seem fine to me, after all that unlock doubles your cap strength even before you add the FacIV.

Mk2 triples your strength.

[kasnavada]

MkIII fleetships seem fine to me, after all that unlock doubles your cap strength even before you add the FacIV.

Mk2 triples your strength.

Mk2 at least quadruple compared to mk1 : twice the damage, twice the endurance for twice the cost. 1 -> 5
Mk3 is 9 (so, 5 -> 14 double your strength compared to 1 and 2).
Mk4 is 16 : 14 -> 30.

That ignores other bonus like extra range or bigger attack bonus.

Seems fine to me if you get mk4 builder. Same with fleet ships with the new caps.

[keith.lamothe]

That ignores other bonus like extra range or bigger attack bonus.

FYI, higher mark ships only rarely get more range, and usually it's like 500 per mark with already-long-range stuff just to make the lower-stuff go out in front and be more likely to take fire for the higher-mark stuff.

And I'm not aware of any ship where higher marks get a higher attack bonus.

[Toranth]

MkIII fleetships seem fine to me, after all that unlock doubles your cap strength even before you add the FacIV.

Mk2 triples your strength.

Mk2 at least quadruple compared to mk1 : twice the damage, twice the endurance for twice the cost. 1 -> 5
Mk3 is 9 (so, 5 -> 14 double your strength compared to 1 and 2).
Mk4 is 16 : 14 -> 30.

Measuring strength is a lot more complicated than that. 
A Mk II ship does twice the damage of the Mk I. 
A Mk II ship has twice the HP of the Mk I.

Yet 3 Mk I ships can kill a Mk II with 2 surviving (in general - if armor is insignificant).
It usually takes only 2 Mk II ships to kill a Mk III.
Rarely will it take more than 10 Mk I ships to kill a Mk V.

In the absence of armor, the ratio goes:
1 - 3 - 4 - 6 - 7
That is, a Mk I is equivalent to 1 Mk I.  A Mk II is equivalent to 3 Mk Is, a Mk III = 4 Mk Is, and so on.

[kasnavada]

That ignores other bonus like extra range or bigger attack bonus.

FYI, higher mark ships only rarely get more range, and usually it's like 500 per mark with already-long-range stuff just to make the lower-stuff go out in front and be more likely to take fire for the higher-mark stuff.

And I'm not aware of any ship where higher marks get a higher attack bonus.

I think I'm tired... I meant give, so, the flagship. I do not know if it actually gets it's own bonus.

Yet 3 Mk I ships can kill a Mk II with 2 surviving (in general - if armor is insignificant).

Yet, that does not make it 1/3 as strong. 2 mk2 ships would kill 2 mk1 ships with no losses, by that reasoning, does it makes them infinitly stronger ? Obviously, not.

In a situation where neither side has an advantage, a level 2 ships will do twice the damage twice longer, so 4 times more damage. In a defavorable situation (ie overwhelmed), the ratio will go down. In a favorable situation the ratio will go up.

The ratio IS 1, 4, 9, 16, 25.

[keith.lamothe]

The flagship ?

Oh, you mean munitions boost, not hull type bonuses.

Well, yea, the flagship's distinctive ability is the munitions boost, so it scales up with mark

[chemical_art]

That ignores other bonus like extra range or bigger attack bonus.

FYI, higher mark ships only rarely get more range, and usually it's like 500 per mark with already-long-range stuff just to make the lower-stuff go out in front and be more likely to take fire for the higher-mark stuff.

And I'm not aware of any ship where higher marks get a higher attack bonus.

The flagship ?

I think was meant was the hull bonuses, not munition bonuses.

[kasnavada]

Sorry... I edited my post above. I'm tired, and think not so straight.

I also meant other bonuses like the maw absortion being faster on lower level units as level goes up, and parasite being able to capture higher level units as their level goes higher (if that's still the case). They are not starships but the same reasonning apply.

Another edit :
Actually, the leech and bomber and raid are the only starship with no bonus to range as level rises, among the unlockables, all other get range bonuses.

The point of a bonus to range, even minimal, is that someone really good could kite a ship with a 400 range bonus. It also means that the higher level always gets the first shot with even a small advantage in range like 200.

Some of the ships also do, I don't remember which. Also armor might be significant, and it scales by level. The point was to prove that the rising cost of K is worth unlocking higher level ships, even if the rise in K seems to rise a lot.

[keith.lamothe]

No worries, I often lack straight thinking too

But, while the ratio is more than 1:2:3:4:5, it is less than 1:4:9:16:25 because a ship's utility is not hp*attack.  HP actually matters a lot less than attack, in practice.

[Winge]

Raids are too weak to justify their higher K costs vs other starships.

Lightning and Flak Turrets are very weak right now.  I could see some reduction on the other turrets, but those are the worst by far.  HBC, Gravity, and Tractor turrets are exceptions, IMO.

I almost never unlock Transport IIs or Mobile Repair Stations.  They are useful...but not 4,000 K useful.

[chemical_art]

Not sure what to vote for, since I could pick them all and almost all I think a buff / more effective role specialization.

[kasnavada]

Sorry, edited again.

But, while the ratio is more than 1:2:3:4:5, it is less than 1:4:9:16:25 because a ship's utility is not hp*attack.  HP actually matters a lot less than attack, in practice.

Depends.

A perfect example would be a run on a core guard post, for 20-30 seconds your raiders do not get attacked, therefore the attack only would matter. Then the defender catch up and your ship die in a few seconds, since this was a suicide run. In that situation, as you said, HP is less important since the disavantage is strong. Twice the HP might give 3 more seconds, there is no point.

Yet, on the other side, when you have overwhelming forces, HP becomes all the more important, since it determines how far you go. 1 level 2 ships killing level 1 ships one at a time would get 4, 2 level 2 ships killing level 1 ships one at a time would get up to 16. This does not makes them 8 times stronger anymore than the first situation made them 2.1 times stronger.

AI war tends to put players in the first situation when attacking, in the second for defending... even if with the different ships it's a little more complicated of course. I try to do more battles with an overwhelming advantage, making the higher level more useful.

[keith.lamothe]

I almost never unlock Transport IIs or Mobile Repair Stations.  They are useful...but not 4,000 K useful.

The Transport I'll grant, but I think a lot of you aren't giving the MRS a fair shake.  It can be a huge force multiplier even in a single battle, let alone a series of battles, and is much easier to use for the purpose than engineers.

[chemical_art]

I almost never unlock Transport IIs or Mobile Repair Stations.  They are useful...but not 4,000 K useful.

The Transport I'll grant, but I think a lot of you aren't giving the MRS a fair shake.  It can be a huge force multiplier even in a single battle, let alone a series of battles, and is much easier to use for the purpose than engineers.

I don't find it any easier to use then engine III.

If you have neutered the tachyons between the fleet and one of your planets, the engineer III will make it to your fleet, even if 10 hops in. Since your fleet cannot repair in battle, the MLRS being stealthed doesn't mean that much.

Considering the engineer III repairs a single unit 12 times faster then the MLRS, and the engineer III comes with over 8 times the cap, I don't really see spending the same amount when the engineer III (and II) can do so much more.