Poll: Should fleet caps be made the same across all marks?

[keith.lamothe]

I haven't kept up with the convo, but I trust you guys so I'll remove my no vote. I was mostly afraid of homogenization, don't necessarily feel like every ship should be useful and sensible to unlock all the time

This shouldn't impact how different ship types relate to one another, just how mkII+ (and especially mkIII+) stuff relates to mkI

[Diazo]

My only concern is that this does not lead to Mk III and Mk IV worlds you run into early game (so before you have your own high-mark units) having noticeably more units. (I understand the reinforcements do take the ship cap into account, so if you increase the number of ships in a ship cap you might see more reinforcements.)

Beyond that, it's just adjustment. This is a small enough change that it won't really change anything I don't think.

Not from a combat perspective anyway, it might change what people unlock when if they are now getting more fleet ships. (I'm looking at you Starship K costs.)

D.

[keith.lamothe]

My only concern is that this does not lead to Mk III and Mk IV worlds you run into early game (so before you have your own high-mark units) having noticeably more units. (I understand the reinforcements do take the ship cap into account, so if you increase the number of ships in a ship cap you might see more reinforcements.)

Well, what I'm hearing a lot nowadays is that the AI defensive forces (i.e. reinforcements) are very underwhelming.  So the IIIs and IVs getting harder is part of the point

Of course, your poor, poor turtle game...  Ouch

[Martyn van Buren]

I'm still in the "no" column; I usually find that the higher marks are worth unlocking now and I'm worried that this will render lower-mark ships too obsolete as you get farther into the game.  But I certainly trust your judgment over my own instincts and won't be enormously put out if the change happens.

[Hearteater]

I'm still in the "no" column; I usually find that the higher marks are worth unlocking now and I'm worried that this will render lower-mark ships too obsolete as you get farther into the game.  But I certainly trust your judgment over my own instincts and won't be enormously put out if the change happens.

Do you find Mark III worth it if you know you won't have an Advanced Factory, and therefor no Mark IV ships either?  I say this because: Mark II is not all that much lower in cap than Mark I, and is a pretty good upgrade for the cost.  But Mark III starts to get sketchy.  Except you normally get Mark IV with it, so combined that's certainly worth it.  And you never really notice Mark IV's relative cap strength because you don't pay for it directly.  And then Mark V you can't unlock with Knowledge, but rather find randomly, so anything feels good.

[Draco18s]

And then Mark V you can't unlock with Knowledge, but rather find randomly, so anything feels good.

Unless they're younglings.

[keith.lamothe]

And then Mark V you can't unlock with Knowledge, but rather find randomly, so anything feels good.

Unless they're younglings.

Hmm, I had talked about making MkV younglings not self-attrit for that reason, but for some reason I didn't actually do it.

Ah, right, the screaming.

[chemical_art]

Ah, right, the screaming.

But imagine the screaming of the younglings cut down before their prime (of dying in battle)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnwkE4trA48

[Martyn van Buren]

Do you find Mark III worth it if you know you won't have an Advanced Factory, and therefor no Mark IV ships either?  I say this because: Mark II is not all that much lower in cap than Mark I, and is a pretty good upgrade for the cost.  But Mark III starts to get sketchy.  Except you normally get Mark IV with it, so combined that's certainly worth it.  And you never really notice Mark IV's relative cap strength because you don't pay for it directly.  And then Mark V you can't unlock with Knowledge, but rather find randomly, so anything feels good.

You're right; I'm definitely thinking of Mk's III and IV as a single upgrade.  But you do get them both for one k price and I think that would be too cheap if you got a full-sized cap of both of those with their current stats.  I feel like this may be a place where the balance may be really different at different difficulty levels --- in a diff 7 game where you can afford to take a lot of perimeter worlds and get your AIP up near 300 you're usually going to be able to hold onto an advanced factory, in which case I feel like fleet ship upgrades generally dominate starships already.  But I appreciate that this is not the case at higher difficulties.

[Draco18s]

But you do get them both for one k price and I think that would be too cheap if you got a full-sized cap of both of those with their current stats.

What if we had full caps, for all marks, except mark 4, which is at a half-cap (or some other percentage)?

We'd gain a few in the Mk2 and Mk3 department, get the half-cap of Mk4 for free, but as Mk5 tend to come in special packages, having a full cap of those to play with wouldn't be too absurd.

[TechSY730]

Even if ship caps aren't made the same across marks, could the ship cap multiplier for Mk. V be bumped up such that the cap strength of Mk. V units is greater than the cap strength of Mk. IV units? Maybe not by much, but at least some to make them feel more worthwhile.

[TechSY730]

So, glancing at the release notes for the 5.077 versions, it seems that you are going ahead with this. Cool.

I guess this poll can closed now?

[Ozymandiaz]

And just as I voted. I voted yes incidentally

It will making unlocking MK III (and IV) more interesting,a s well as Mk V fabricators worth more.

[TechSY730]

Hey Keith,

Didn't you mention that if you were going to go through with this, there was a decent chance you would make the "mixed mark" wave logic happen on easier difficulties too?

[PokerChen]

I'm still on the no side - but we can always tune the stats to be something other than 2x 3x 4x 5x if higher mark ships become too "numerous". At the very least, equal numbers will make them easier to balance with cap scaling+multiplayer. Especially with those Spire ships with a mark-cap of 5.