Poll: Aim the Nerfbat of Damocles: AI-side (II)

[Lancefighter]

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3569927/Screenshot_2012_10_28_23_28_12.png
Yes. I'm pretty sure I own 20 planets..

And like I said - 2k mk2 zenith bombards had enough alpha strike to completely destroy the fleet before it got into range

[TechSY730]

Bombards have been gaining numbers similarly to other units for a while now.

That is...very suspicious. You should be seeing either
-The AI getting them in roughly ship cap ratios
-The AI getting almost only them, but in smallish numbers or acculmulating at severly diminished rate
-The AI getting about the same of them as other ships, but with both overall numbers taking a big hit, and a moderatley hurt build-up rate
Which case depends on what the AI was trying to do with, whatever it was building, but in any case, it would have had to pay harshly in either numbers or opportunity costs (it could of gotten many more ships if it chose a higher cap ship)
If it isn't (and you have the actual calculations as given in the logs or very consistent observed quantitative data across multiple games to lend strong evidence towards this), then there may be a big problem happening with how the AI is (or rather, isn't) paying properly at some stage for some mechanic.

EDIT: Suspicious on the part of the game, not in the sense that I am doubting you.

Except enemies that outrange me and have the burst to instantly kill the entire fleet.

One of the reasons why I think they need a nerf overall as well (for both AI and humans). Strong alpha + long range gives a utility benefit which far exceeds what cap DPS would ordinarily imply.

[Wanderer]

Those of you who have seen me arguing with the SF in my AAR know I've been fighting a Zombard army there.

I figured out why the Zombards end up at huge numbers.  It's because they're slow and long range.  If you're not wiping out the SF completely, they get there last, and they stay WAAAAY in the back.  If you only take out the van of the SF, you're not going to be laying into these ships.  Eventually, they end up completely skewed in the SF (and threatball, if it's wandering around being annoying).

[Lancefighter]

Odd - I didn't encounter special forces at all before this point (they just didn't seem to want to come out and play).
Partially because I wasnt really doing anything granted (basically sitting around powering through my spire business)

[keith.lamothe]

SF does pay according to cap, it just likes zombards more than most other ships if they're available, so it doesn't mind putting that much of its budget towards them.

Any suspicions that it's not paying appropriately would need to be backed up with logs (with advanced logging on, it will record what it buys and for how much in SpecialForcesLogic.txt in your RuntimeData directory)

[chemical_art]

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3569927/Screenshot_2012_10_28_23_28_12.png
Yes. I'm pretty sure I own 20 planets..

And like I said - 2k mk2 zenith bombards had enough alpha strike to completely destroy the fleet before it got into range

Imagine this:

The ai sends 10k fleetships at your fleet.

Would you expect your fleet to survive intact?

Keep in mind caps of the triangle ships do twice the damage cap wise as bombards against their bonuses, and 50% more health.

Z bombards counter capital ships. That's their job, to hit big things.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, their antimatter ammo makes it pretty hard for them to hit a lot of things it would be nice to hit, too.

[TechSY730]

SF does pay according to cap, it just likes zombards more than most other ships if they're available, so it doesn't mind putting that much of its budget towards them.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are properly paying for zombards. What I was trying to say is that if the SF was allowed to put that many zombards into SF, and it probably would not have been allowed to stuff in anywhere near 10k of other ships on top of the 6k of other stuff they already have (due to ship count cap), it seems like the cap that is weighted based on ship cap (the strength cap) isn't doing it job when the AI is deciding to focus on lower cap stuff to "bypass" the ship count cap.

[keith.lamothe]

It actually demonstrates that there's not really a ship count cap at all.  I may have intended one for performance reasons but it's evidently not happening, and I can think of why.  For balance reasons there would be no such cap; strength is the only thing to go by there.

For performance reasons I may have it combine some ships into carriers or something like that, we'll see.

[TechSY730]

It actually demonstrates that there's not really a ship count cap at all.  I may have intended one for performance reasons but it's evidently not happening, and I can think of why.  For balance reasons there would be no such cap; strength is the only thing to go by there.

Oh. If there is not supposed to be a raw ship count cap, then that changes up my analysis some.

[Faulty Logic]

For performance reasons I may have it combine some ships into carriers or something like that, we'll see.

On behalf of the nuclear warhead association, I oppose this motion.

[keith.lamothe]

For performance reasons I may have it combine some ships into carriers or something like that, we'll see.

On behalf of the nuclear warhead association, I oppose this motion.

You would take +50AIP just to kill the SF fleet?

[Draco18s]

The ai sends 10k fleetships at your fleet.

Would you expect your fleet to survive intact?

"Surviving intact" isn't his problem.  His problem was that his fleet didn't exist post-alpha-strike to even fire a single shot at the bombards.

[TechSY730]

The ai sends 10k fleetships at your fleet.

Would you expect your fleet to survive intact?

"Surviving intact" isn't his problem.  His problem was that his fleet didn't exist post-alpha-strike to even fire a single shot at the bombards.

Part of that is why I mentioned what I did previously about strong alpha, range, and utility:

Strong alpha + long range gives a utility benefit which far exceeds what cap DPS would ordinarily imply.

However, it does bring up a point; if you bring a fleet that is almost entirely countered by some opposing force, doesn't it make sense that you would have severe, "ROFL-curbstomped" losses?
If you are relying on ships with a common weakness (the fallen spire captial ships are largely one or two hull types), then shouldn't you be prepared to vary things somewhat if the AI gets something that counters that stuff pretty well?

[Faulty Logic]

You would take +50AIP just to kill the SF fleet? 

Have you seen my signature?

Only during the endgame, though.