Author Topic: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...  (Read 120124 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #120 on: September 16, 2010, 08:52:52 am »
Yea, while we're really not going to say "blah blah blah piracy is to blame"... judging by some recent data (both general and specific), I'd say it's quite possible that at least 75% of the people getting a full version of AI War are doing so via electronic-five-finger-discount, and an even higher percentage for Tidalis.

But it's just not relevant, for a ton of reasons.  We have to make our plans as if those people just didn't exist (no DRM, etc) because sales-wise they don't ;)  Though hopefully some of them do eventually do the right thing, but I don't want to get into that discussion.

Anyway, I only mention it in response to the torrent suggestion.  A good idea in theory, but yea, it wouldn't get a lot of attention next to the full versions flying around on the same torrents.

As for the demo time, I think 3 hours is plenty when taken together with the intermediate tutorial.  That's like 7 hours of play (possibly more), and at that point you've probably got a pretty good idea whether you like the basic concept of the game or not.  There is the problem that they just don't see the mature stages of a real gamestate that way (particularly with the various minor factions, etc), and I hope to be able to do something about that more directly in the future.
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Offline mlaskus

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #121 on: September 16, 2010, 09:04:15 am »
Maybe the updated tutorial could feature a section describing possible interactions with minor factions?

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2010, 09:19:27 am »
Whats more puzzling is how Minecraft could even make any sales given that there is not a single "game" in this game. Its just a sandbox with blocks, like a inferior form of lego. Man, i must be getting old or something ;P Or maybe its that i can make better looking things from blocks, for free... the curse of a 3d-designer!

As for pirates.. pirates are not customers, theres 0 point to focus on piracy to increase sales. And thats that. The only way to combat piracy is for arcengames to make online account registrations and 1 serial-per-user DRM. That would cut down on piracy, and net you exactly NILL extra sales.

I think, that Tidalis is way too complex to appeal to any casual crowd. Its not a casual game (like nearly no high-planning and skill puzzlers). As for AI-War well, it is a Niche genre within the RTS genre (so twice Niche).

Now i can't really say more - i like AI War but even i have to admit that the amount of time one has to invest in even a single game is too drastic - the game needs a short game mode.

Also, i think with gamers getting older they also grave for more mature serious storylines (not the kinky mature kind) i call it "hard-sci-fi" but not sure thats the genre... anyhow... I wish there'd be a "story" mode in AI-War, with random events, quests, characters and heck, even my own flagship - but that'd be way too much work....
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Offline superking

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2010, 09:29:39 am »
piracy can be hugely reduced if someone is willing to take 15 minutes out of each day to tour the warez sites reporting RS/MU/HF/FD etc links.

I still think the best way to get attention is a good trailer

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2010, 09:32:47 am »
The only way to combat piracy is for arcengames to make online account registrations and 1 serial-per-user DRM. That would cut down on piracy, and net you exactly NILL extra sales.
Exactly, and then they just make a keygen.  They already have, which is kind of amusing since they didn't actually need to, but anyway, I don't want to spend any more words on the subject ;)

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the game needs a short game mode
I agree, though not a mode that actually "shortens" the overall game (I don't think it would scale in a fun way), but via short scenarios.  Like "break the stalemate" stuff, where you can jump into the middle of an interesting gamestate and have a primary objective different than "kill the AI home command stations".  So the gameplay itself need not change much, just the positioning of the "start" and "end" points within that campaign.

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Also, i think with gamers getting older they also grave for more mature serious storylines (not the kinky mature kind) i call it "hard-sci-fi" but not sure thats the genre... anyhow... I wish there'd be a "story" mode in AI-War, with random events, quests, characters and heck, even my own flagship - but that'd be way too much work....
Actually I've thought a lot about that; the main thing isn't the work involved, but that it'd basically be a different game.  There's a lot of stuff I'd like to do that just doesn't fit within the scope of AI War, and trying too hard to stuff it in there would hurt everything.
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Offline pallenda

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2010, 09:52:29 am »
I didn't plan on getting Tidalis but for the extra support to you guys I did anyway, maybe the game will grow on me. (I normally more into action puzzles or whatever you call them like tetris/Chime).

This place might be a better place to ask this question than the other place I asked it in. I wonder if I can just buy several CoN copies and give away keys to my friends who have AI War?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2010, 09:57:20 am »
I didn't plan on getting Tidalis but for the extra support to you guys I did anyway, maybe the game will grow on me. (I normally more into action puzzles or whatever you call them like tetris/Chime).
Tidalis has both the "brainteaser" type puzzles and the action type puzzles.  If you fire the game up and play through the tutorials the last two are basically easy action boards.  After that you can try the Action Sampler to see some of the crazy things we do there.  Adventure mode is a mix; the actual progression is action levels, but there are "hidden" brainteaser levels.

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This place might be a better place to ask this question than the other place I asked it in. I wonder if I can just buy several CoN copies and give away keys to my friends who have AI War?
Yes, that works just fine (same for TZR, too); and the proceeds for CoN go to the Child's Play charity :)
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2010, 09:57:36 am »
I also think that the games should cost more but thats just me. Arcengames has low prices for games, and particularly the CoN expansion is way too cheap.

Also the 4.0 conversion should provide space to release an "AI War: Unity" with all the addons in, for 29.99$

And everyone who has bought AI War and Zenith and CON gets (for each) 25% off. Yes, it'd be mean but that would imo be a fair pricing.

Its also important the Tutorial gets updated and "fancied up" ;) Explosions and Effects, and that stuff. With Unity we FINALLY get shader effects so the graphic quality can go through the roof.

Well, my 2ct ;p
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 10:00:09 am by eRe4s3r »
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Offline Ixolite

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #128 on: September 16, 2010, 09:58:42 am »
OK, I know torrents and piracy is a touchy subject but my thinking is: since you cannot do anything about it and cannot realistically fight it, why not trying to use it to your advantage instead.

Quote from: mlaskus
@Ixolite, sadly, the game has been all over torrent/warez sites since it got released. I doubt a stripped down version of the game, or a demo would get a lot of attention there.

Just checked couple sites and seriously - the game is close to non-existant there. 14 people on a torrent is hardly any attention at all.

Quote from: Rustayne
Have to agree with Mlaskus on that one Ixolite.  I know I had no problem finding the game on a torrent as of 5 mins ago.  If there is already a cracked copy of the game out there, I sadly doubt a watered down version would do very well on torrent sites.   I could be wrong, but if they downloaded the demo/stripped down version, and liked it, but didn't want to pay the 20 bucks for the game, they would find the cracked copy and play that instead.  Your idea has some merit though I think.  If there was a way to show people who torrent things that AI War is a great game, there is a chance that they would buy it.  It really would depend on the community of the torrent site in question.

Yeah, you can find it if you are looking for it. My point was rather to make it really visible there, make it official. Tell people to look for it, make them see the name, make them see its a popular download. Also, from my experience, people tend to like artists who don't blame piracy for everything and try to work out new ways to reach the torrent users instead. Even if it means that the cracked full version gets more attention - again, usually people who get the cracked version wouldn't but the game anyway. But they have to know about it first, not to buy it consciously. I know I may seem rather controversial in my view of this matter but my point was to use torrent sites to gain attention and let more people actually know about the game.

Quote from: eRe4s3r
As for pirates.. pirates are not customers, theres 0 point to focus on piracy to increase sales. And thats that. The only way to combat piracy is for arcengames to make online account registrations and 1 serial-per-user DRM. That would cut down on piracy, and net you exactly NILL extra sales.
You're wrong about that. Piracy, like it or not, is a fact and you can argue that some of the pirated copies are lost sales. But in the same time, it is also an advertising and test driving - sort of try before you buy, parallel to official demos (which in case of larger producers often drastically differ from the delivered product). Also, any copy protection can and will be broken as long as the game is running on the "client" computer - there is no 100% successful copy protection. On the other hand, a lot of people are willing to pay for quality product, even if they found out about it via said electronic-five-finger-discount.


I just think this is worth considering, especially if it doesn't require a lot of additional resources to carry out. Publicity is one of the things Arcen needs at the moment from what I understand, and making a lot of official, positive "noise" about torrents might be a way to gain some of it.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #129 on: September 16, 2010, 10:06:25 am »
I'm politely requesting that the discussion of piracy go quietly away now ;)  There are some interesting points, but conversations on that topic never seem to end well.

I also think that the games should cost more but thats just me. Arcengames has low prices for games, and particularly the CoN expansion is way too cheap.
Well, particularly in this market, the relationship between "price per unit" and "price per unit * units sold" is heavily non-linear.  It's quite possible to make more money selling something for $10 than $20, for example.

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Its also important the Tutorial gets updated and "fancied up" ;) Explosions and Effects, and that stuff. With Unity we FINALLY get shader effects so the graphic quality can go through the roof.
Yea, we're hoping to make the tutorial updates a priority soon.  As for the graphics that's up to Chris, but we are very excited about getting a proper set of tools in that regard, for sure.
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Offline Ixolite

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #130 on: September 16, 2010, 10:17:22 am »
I was merely suggesting using torrent sites as a promo tool - mentioning the piracy was a byproduct of argumentation there since it is common to think torrent=pirate. But I guess I kind of expected that and I won't pursue the matter any further.

On a side note, I am trying to spread the word out to my friends ;)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #131 on: September 16, 2010, 10:22:03 am »
I was merely suggesting using torrent sites as a promo tool - mentioning the piracy was a byproduct of argumentation there since it is common to think torrent=pirate. But I guess I kind of expected that and I won't pursue the matter any further.
Yea, I wasn't taking issue with what you said, I just know how discussions even on the periphery of that topic get nasty and unproductive fast and didn't want to derail this very helpful thread.

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On a side note, I am trying to spread the word out to my friends ;)
Thank you very much :)
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Offline Ktoff

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #132 on: September 16, 2010, 11:36:44 am »
If you want to help, gift a copy to a friend :-)

I played the Tidalis demo and it wasn't for me. Instead of buying a game i probably won't play i prefer gifting copies of AI war in the hope of building a multiplayer circle. Up till now i have one failure and one semi-failure/semi-sucess( half full? ). Not what i wanted but: Two more Sales for Arcen :-)

I love the no-DRM stance of AI War, DRM games always feel kind of broken (and i still use Steam...). The last time i tried to install my Adobe Suite (4th install) i noticed that you have to deactivate your old installs if you want to install again. I managed to recover a broken windows partition to deactivate one version, but the others are gone and have been for some time... If i run into a similar problem i might just download a cracked version. Works as well only without the bother of my several hundred € Version.

@keith: feel free to delete that last paragraph, i fear i am beeing sucked into the DRM discussion ;)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #133 on: September 16, 2010, 11:38:48 am »
Thanks for the support :)

And no worries on the DRM thing; I'm not trying to be draconian, just want to avoid triggering a corollary of Godwin's Law ;)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Love AI War and/or Tidalis? We could really use your help...
« Reply #134 on: September 16, 2010, 11:44:18 am »
By the way, for those of you trying to get your friends interested in AI War (thank you!), if they don't like it that doesn't mean there's nothing to be gained; if you could give us their feedback (or better yet, herd them to these forums so they can tell us themselves) that could be really helpful.  Obviously there are things we can't or won't change but often there's something that we can do.  Also, I've found it's often possible to take those stated desires and distill them down to the real "itch", and then find another way of scratching that which does fit with our philosophy.

But, to take an example, if I'd never seen anyone ask for a more dangerous/proactive AI opponent I probably never would have cooked up the Hybrid Hives (which still need a lot of work, but are doing fairly well for beta).  We can't really change the basic design of the overall AI, but that didn't mean we couldn't add another opponent to brutally thrash entertain the people wanting that kind of thing :)
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