Author Topic: Knowledge Costs  (Read 2668 times)

Offline Faulty Logic

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Knowledge Costs
« on: April 14, 2013, 04:58:13 am »
My opinion on every single k unlock except bonus ships (feel free to discuss):

Fleetships

I usually unlock triangle IIs at some point. These are my gold standard for unlocking other stuff. I often unlock mkIIIs of a couple, but I do think k costs for mkIII fleetships needs to come down.

Maybe between 4 and 5 thousand (inc).

In games with scouting, I unlock scouts II always and III never.

Starships

Generally, the starships are in a good place now, though I only unlock mkIIIs with a huge empire, including an ACS.

Flagships II-III High on the list.
Alien starships I-III : I really like these. Even though they bankrupt me.
Leeches II-III : when I have spare k, which is almost never.
Raids II-III: Never. 1000-3000 would be reasonable prices, not 4000-4000.
Siege II-III: Rarely. But they have their uses.
Bomber II-III: Often. If a planet has a fort and ion cannon, I turn to these guys.
Cloakers II-III: Usually worth unlocking the mkII. Occasionally the mkIII.
Enclaves: II is a ripoff. III is okay. IV is never worth it. I propose 1000-2000-2000-12000 for enclaves II-III-IV-V (mkIV has the drones, mkV has the mkIV fleetships).

Riots II-III: Awesome.
Scouts: Very occasionally I will unlock mkIV for antimissile capability. Mks II and III don't really seem to have a reason for existing.

Economy

Engi II-IIIs. I unlock IIs almost every game, but can never justify 3000 k for the mkIIIs. Please reduce the price of the mkIIIs to 1000.

Harvesters II-III Often worth unlocking.

Econ stations II-III I can never justify unlocking these. In the games where I have enough space to cram them all in, I want either military stations for my chokepoint or logistics everywhere.
Log II-IIIs:  :'( my precious logistics stations mkI. These are also pretty dusty from their non-use.
Military II-IIIs : Situationally (read: iff massive chokepoint) useful.

I think either removing the cap, lowering the k costs, or both is called for with the basic station unlocks.

Warp Jammers : I unlock these almost every game, though they definitely have suffered with threatfleets, minor faction attacks, etc.

Support

Advanced Warp Sensor : no complaints at 250 cost.

Transport II: Never worth it. Change price to 1500 or 2000.
MRS: Also never worth it. Change price to 2000.

Exo-shield: Ok at 750. Maybe add an advanced version for 750 more with no efficiency hit.

Spacetime manipulator: What a strange tech. I've never been able to get past its massive energy cost.

Decloaker: Just fine as a situational unlock with cloaked raiding potential.

Normal ffs: In a good spot.
Hardened ffs: Terrible. Their armor rarely translates to more effective hp than their non-hardened counterparts, and they don't unlock modules for other stuff. Halve their k cost or double their hp.

Fortresses: They're fine. K-for-firepower efficient, at the cost of being really expensive and defence-only.

Mod-Fort: Good spot also.

Mini-fort: Good for 1000 k, it protects all planets from tiny incursions, but anything resembling an actual attack has them crying uncle. I would like to see more per-planet defenses added, like a riot fort or bigger mini-forts.

Turrets
Most turrets need to come down in price. I can rarely justify unlocking these. These are my proposed prices:

Basic Turrets: Fine.
Spiders : 2500.
Missiles : 2000-3000
MLRS: 1500-2500
Flak: 1000-2000
Lightning: 1000-2000
Laser: 2000-3000
Tractors: 2000-3000
Tachyon: Fine.
Gravity: Fine.
HBC: Fine.

Basically taking more than a system of k (or 1.5 systems if we go with the rescale) is really bad for something that doesn't increase your offensive strength. Drones are nice, but they are a long way from completely addressing the problem (again, partly because the Enclave IV is exorbitant).
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 06:48:26 am by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Histidine

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2013, 05:34:50 am »
I pretty much always get Scout IIIs. In addition to the increased picket/deep scout power, it gives me the Scout IV which is fire-and-forget scouting.

Dunno why I'd ever get Enclave IIs when Merc Enclave does the same thing at no K cost.

MRS is sometimes nice to have, but overpriced.

Offline Aquohn

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2013, 05:50:03 am »
Raids II-III: Never. 1000-3000 would be reasonable prices, not 4000-4000.

One-Way Doormasters. 'Nuff said.

Seriously though, these are awesome for torching Needler/Laser Guard Posts, Tachyon Guardians, Shield/Counterattack Guard Posts, and Command Stations.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2013, 09:27:29 am »
The main question in my mind is whether the "bad deals" cost too much or the "good deals" cost too little.

But I do agree that both categories exist here, with a modest degree of middle ground.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2013, 09:32:28 am »
I'm pretty firmly in the "bad deals cost too much" camp. There are some "good deals" relative to unlocking mkII fleetships (my standard), but they are pretty rare.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2013, 01:16:19 pm »
The MRS is an awesome ship.  It might be a touch pricey at 4k, but at 2k it would be an automatic unlock.  Honestly, I unlock it pretty often at 4k.  I wouldn't want to see it go below 3k.  That would just be unfair to the AI.

The Hardened Force Fields are excellent.  At 1k you get a lot more shields to cover your vulnerable structures.  They average out about even with normal Force Fields.  I don't see any need to mess with their price.  This is one thing I unlock every game.

Offline Diazo

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2013, 02:12:54 pm »
Hmmm.

How do we define 'worth it'?

Hearteater loves the MRS, I can't remember the last time I used it.

Faulty find the Hardened FF terrible, I love them. More FFs is critical to how I play.

I could go on and on with my opinion also but I think some guidelines or ground rules are needed here if we are going to try and get some changes in the actual game.

Note that this ties directly both into the 'Reduce K for reduced AIP scaling' thread going on as well as being squarely on the slippery slope that led to that thread being created.

I'm talking about the various knowledge changes over the years that have resulted in knowledge costs coming down pretty much across the board. I can't think of a time that knowledge costs have ever increased without the unit in question having gotten a significant buff of some sort.

D.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2013, 02:36:36 pm »
Quote
I could go on and on with my opinion also but I think some guidelines or ground rules are needed here if we are going to try and get some changes in the actual game.
Alright.

Treat this like a nominations for a buff poll, but limited to every-game human unlocks. No regex nonsense required either, I have plenty of time. But please give each nomination its own line.

Hardened FF
Transport II
MRS
Fleetship III
Raid starship
Enclave IV
Station upgrades
Laser Turrets
Lightning Turrets
Flak Turrets
Missile Turrets
MLRS Turrets
Spider Turrets
Tractor Turrets
Turrets in general
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 02:38:25 pm by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2013, 02:45:41 pm »
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2013, 02:55:10 pm »
Hardened FF
Transport II
MRS
Fleetship III
Raid starship
Enclave IV
Station upgrades
Laser Turrets
Lightning Turrets
Flak Turrets
Missile Turrets
MLRS Turrets
Spider Turrets
Tractor Turrets
Turrets in general

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Offline _K_

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2013, 06:11:46 am »
Spider and tractor turrets are great and in my opinion are worth their K costs.
Tractor turrets get a huge boost at MKII compared to MKI, and spider turrets are also incredibly useful.

Flak and lightning are UP, i would be more interested in seeing them buffed, not the K cost reduced.

MSRS, Missile and Laser turrets are decent, but the knowledge costs or quite high, probably should cost 500-1000K less.

Hardened FFs are fine, MKI is also very cheap in knowledge yet quite useful and has a nice cap.

Enclaves would be fine in my opinion, if they didn't rely on turret unlocks to obtain the drones.

Fleetship MKIIIs are absolutely worth the cost if you intend to use adv. fac extensively.

Raid starships could have their K cost decreased, now that their durability is lower due to guardposts.



Offline Kahuna

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 12:12:07 pm »
Seriously though, these are awesome for torching Needler/Laser Guard Posts, Tachyon Guardians, Shield/Counterattack Guard Posts, and Command Stations.
They're garbage
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 12:16:10 pm »
The Hardened Force Fields are excellent.
And Hardeneds can take more punishment than the normal ones
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2013, 12:19:52 pm »
All stations are too expensive in Knowledge and in addition to that only Mark II and III Military Stations are good. Warp Jammer isn't good. It's OK.

EDIT:
Nominations:
Econ Station
Log Station
Warp Jammer
Flak Turret
Lightning Turret
MRLS Turret
Missile Turret
Laser Turret
Tractor Turret
Spider Turret
Zenith Space Time Manipulator
Enclave Starships
Scout Starships
Raid Starships
Transports
Mobile Repairer
Mini Fort
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 02:08:08 pm by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline rickynumber24

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Re: Knowledge Costs
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2013, 12:42:34 pm »
The Hardened Force Fields are excellent.
And Hardeneds can take more punishment than the normal ones

No, they can't, really.  IIRC, the armor reduction cap is 80%, which means you'd take 1/5 of the incoming damage.  They also have 1/4 of the HP of a normal FF, so, if you have anything that has infinite AP to go through its infinite armor, you'll end up in a worse spot than with regular ones anyway.

That said, I usually unlock them eventually because I want more cap worth of forcefields.