Arcen Games
General Category => AI War Classic => Topic started by: Lancefighter on May 16, 2014, 01:07:44 am
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I feel like that title is exceptionally long, but it really sums up how I feel about things. Progressively this game seems to have managed to get more annoying to actually play.
I've started a handful of games within the last hour, none of them got past half an hour. Lets discuss the things I have incredible issue with.
Just to start with - Dumb counterwave posts. I know there is discussion of getting rid of them, but its just another thing that gets in the way. As far as I can see, my main goal should be to explore as much as possible and blow up every single counterwave post at 10aip.. And the champion aids with the fleet to do that.
God damn plasma siege. I know I have another post on this already, but they just annoy me. I see no reason for a wave to explode my science ships. Really absolutely no reason. The amount of annoying it is is incredibly high. I literally was clicking a thing to buy it when it got exploded under a bunch of forcefields.
Next, and honestly probably the biggest one - At some point, the engine was changed to not recognize orders *during a pause*. My last game was lost because zenith starships are literally immune to damage for most of the game. I mean more specifically - I gave order to put up a forcefield thing from my shadow ship, and in the time it took for that to happen, shots that were fired from the zenith starship exploded my command center. Overall this feels really shitty.. Honestly just not having the 'beep beep' on giving an order, or the current orders not updating (say on galaxy map or holding down that button that shows lines). I understand that this change was made, if I understand, to restrict the whole spamming forcefields from a champion? It just feels worse to actually play. edit; apparently I'm dumb.
Also, protector starships dont seem to have counter-sniper of any sort?
I dunno, I'm just trying to play this game without feeling like the game itself is fighting with me (not the AI, mind, I want the AI to fight me..), but the game mechanics just seem to get in my way at any chance they can get.
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I'll just mention that I've had no trouble giving orders while paused; I frequently pause to micro my champion's shields.
I will say that I think maybe cloaked stuff could be immune to plasma siege FF splash, but honestly I've just stopped putting cloaked ships under forcefields.
Counterwave posts are a certain degree of lame, I'll grant that. I much preferred the old version that was a smaller than usual wave that gave almost no warning. I don't really feel the need to wipe them all out at the beginning, though, mostly because I never really feel like they are a significant threat. Just something that slows me down for ~10 minutes while I stop everything I am doing to deal with it.
EDIT: In your settings menu, under Game, make sure Use TBS-Friendly Pause is enabled.
EDIT2: If you really need Protectors to counter snipers, use the force field module; most snipers won't be able to scratch it.
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I'll just mention that I've had no trouble giving orders while paused; I frequently pause to micro my champion's shields.
I will say that I think maybe cloaked stuff could be immune to plasma siege FF splash, but honestly I've just stopped putting cloaked ships under forcefields.
Wait. Youre kidding me right. I've been playing with that enabled for so long, that on a new install I completely forgot it was actually an option? I dont even know anymore. Am I even playing the same game..
Edit; Looks like I was wrong, snipers dont ignore forcefields like I thought they did. Sniper guardians also apparently arent a guaranteed guardian type like I swore they were. They seem to murder every single starship I've ever had in the 'medium' hull type (seriously why is medium a hull type for starships) pretty much without fail.
Honestly using the forcefield wouldnt really help, protector starship shield is 2m hp.. Basically useless.
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Protectors are for stopping annoyance by plasma siege bombs, get some with anti-energy and leave them with base to mostly stop that.
Scout starships are for dealing with snipers on offense, counter-sniper turrets are for dealing with snipers on defense.
Hackers are for dealing with plasma eyes.
Cheating is for dealing with counterattack posts. "cmd:enable cheats" + "Revenge Is Best Not Served" removes them all with no counter waves.
Pretending you won and moving on is for dealing with boring AI homeworld assaults.
Game is still pretty fun to me, even if it has some issues.
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I hate Plasma Siege Starships and Counterwave Posts too. They're pain in the ass.
On the other hand.. I think every game needs something annoying.. something that makes the player go "Oh shit!". I always go "Oh shit!" if I see Mark >= II Plasma Siege Starship trying to kill my Command Station. I always manually order Needler Turrets to focus fire them and micro all "Artillery destroying ships" into a better position and focus fire it.
Sniper guardians also apparently arent a guaranteed guardian type like I swore they were.
That's what I though a while ago too.
[... ]It's ALWAYS Spider and Sniper Guardians. [...]
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,15044.0.html
It was fixed
Fixed a longstanding bug where the AI never actually picked any difficulty-gated guardian type (EMP, Self-destruction, Warp Gate) as a buildable type, when doing so randomly.
Thanks to Kahuna for the report.
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I think Scout starships provide counter-sniper coverage. Unlike the protector starship modules which can only counter a limited amount of incoming damage, I think the scout starships completely block sniper fire. I don't know what the coverage radius is like, though.
Also, while the force field modules might not have much health, they would at least deny Sniper guardians their hull type bonuses.
Eff plasma siege starships, though. WTB more bonus ship types with anti-artillery bonuses, please! And AOE immunity for things like hacker placeables and science vessels... yeesh.
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Fun story - Scout starships die to similar mk plasma siege starships in a single *splash* hit (while cloaked.. under forcefields. Hence my other thread actually).
Maybe if snipers are not actually a 100% spawn, it might be just less annoying. I am just not really sure if 2m hp (over what, 2+4+6+8 hardpoints? so 40m hp total maybe) is relevant at all at the point where high mk sniper guardians start onehitting legions of spire frigates.
And clearly the solution to artillery hulls is to make laser gatlings absolutely murder artillery stuff. Maybe they could get a bonus based on the physical size of the enemy ship.
I think I would rather not cheat my way out of counterwave posts, but I think at this point I am so fed up with them that I might try it.
One thing I really like is that new honycomb maptype. Or maybe more accurately, I really love when the thing has giant holes in it. They look pretty. Lattice/grid should maybe do that.
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Pretending you won and moving on is for dealing with boring AI homeworld assaults.
I'd say it's boring if you make it boring. I mean if you just grind the homeworlds by sending your fleet to a suicide mission over and over again until you eventually manage to destroy the AI Home Command Station.
If I find something boring or ineffective it encourages me to find new/better ways (strategies/tactics) to get to the same goal.
I'm not saying the AI Homeworlds couldn't be improved or made more interesting. But it's not necessarily a horrible grind.
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WTB more bonus ship types with anti-artillery bonuses, please!
This.
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WTB more bonus ship types with anti-artillery bonuses, please!
This.
Bomber, Space Tank, Raptor, Raider, Munitions Booster, Neinzul Scapegoat all have good multipliers - 5+.
Neinzul Youngling Tiger and Attractor drone have low multipliers - 2.4.
The aforementioned Needler Turret has a multiplier of 3.
And, oh yeah, the Vampire Claw also has an anti-Artillery bonus - 3. When it can hurt the unit (cannot attack Plasma Siege Startships).
So, we've got the Bomber, a Bomber clone, two swarmers, and two support ships with good bonuses; one Youngling bomber clone and a support ship with minor bonuses; and one melee unit with a bonus that can't attack the desired target due to Fusion Cutter Immunity.
Yeah, we could probably use a few more anti-Artillery bonuses. This is the least count of anything except Command-Grade or Turret.
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Missile Frigates counter the most ships.
I mean there are more ships that are countered by Missile Frigates than ships that are countered by Fighters or Bombers.. I think.
On the other hand Fighters and Bombers have the most important damage multipliers (Top 5: Polycrystal, Medium, Artillery, Structural, Heavy)
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I feel like that title is exceptionally long, but it really sums up how I feel about things. Progressively this game seems to have managed to get more annoying to actually play.
I've actually been trying to make it less annoying. The first two things you mention (counter posts, plasma siege) are not new. But SF posts, you may have noticed, are now much less annoying than they were in 7.0 or earlier. And carriers no longer just cheat through your forcefields, etc.
Just to start with - Dumb counterwave posts. I know there is discussion of getting rid of them, but its just another thing that gets in the way. As far as I can see, my main goal should be to explore as much as possible and blow up every single counterwave post at 10aip.. And the champion aids with the fleet to do that.
I agree that these are annoying, and that's why I want to make them optional and add that Warp Relay idea to the core game in their place.
But I'm mainly trying to clean things up right now, rather than make them messier, so that's not happening immediately unless I get an unexpected chunk of time in which to do it.
So in the meantime I do suggest just using the cheat to remove these if they're making the game unenjoyable for you. I understand it feels off to do so, but it's the best interim solution I can think of for you.
God damn plasma siege. I know I have another post on this already, but they just annoy me. I see no reason for a wave to explode my science ships. Really absolutely no reason.
7.028 will give science ships, hackers, hacking devices, space docks, mercenary space docks, and starship constructors immunity to plasma-siege-splash and aoe in general. Most of them because they're easily replaceable and leave no remains. The hacking ones to avoid some extremely-hard-to-keep-them-alive situations under planetary AI coverage.
I hope to get 7.028 out later today, though probably not in the morning as I'd originally planned due to some other stuff I need to go do.
Also, protector starships dont seem to have counter-sniper of any sort?
Do they really need one? :) They're so OP in some ways (just a few can shut down a fort, etc) it seems odd to add to it.
I dunno, I'm just trying to play this game without feeling like the game itself is fighting with me (not the AI, mind, I want the AI to fight me..), but the game mechanics just seem to get in my way at any chance they can get.
Some of it is specific mechanics, sure, but it's also possible you're experiencing a combination of having the played the game so much in the past year or so that the annoying bits stick out to you far more than the fun bits. It depends on your personality and how much you're inclined to enjoy a game despite its faults vs dislike a game despite its good points.
I'm happy to try to address anything that makes the game less fun, but I've run into many cases over the years where the main source of dissatisfaction was psychological in nature and already into a bit of a feedback-loop stage where my ability to do anything about it was fairly limited. Which doesn't reflect poorly on those people at all, we're just all different in things like that.
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When a game makes me irrationally angry, I put the mouse down and go do something else.
I've never actually finished an AI Wars game myself with a victorious outcome (plenty of losses though), and I've owned it since version 2 or 3. A few times I've gotten to the point of knocking off one AI homeworld, but the second one always turns into a grind. Well, "grind" is a generous term, I usually don't even scratch the paint.
Maybe this time I'll be able to finish it, using the Fallen Spire guys. If their light frigates and refugee outpost are any indication, I should be able to stomp the AI quite thoroughly once I build up some of their more serious ships.
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If AI Homeworlds are such a horrible grind I'd like to know how do you handle them? What's your strategy?
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[A bunch of stuff]
Yeah I think just at this point I have just played too much. I've been trying to actually play the game lately, after a pretty long mostly break, and it just hasnt been working. I really do like most of the actual things happening, it just feels too hard to actually play.. Maybe I will try again closer to 8.0? :\
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If AI Homeworlds are such a horrible grind I'd like to know how do you handle them? What's your strategy?
Don't get me wrong, I'm getting my money's worth out of this game and having a lot of fun with it.
It's been a while since the last time, so I don't remember any particular details, other than I usually play at difficulty 7/7 with random AIs. I'm pretty sure I took over the world next door to set up production facilities. I considered staging attacks from two jumps away, but it's kind of a pain in the ass, as explained way below. I recall using an EMP warhead at the start of every one of my "waves" to give my ships a little breathing room, and Spirecraft Penetrators to blow up some of the more offensive looking core guard posts. After that, the Penetrators are due for a half-hour recharge so that's that. The AI in my games always seems to have a preponderance of Spire Tractor Platforms, so any kind of stand-up fight without EMP means half my units get snatched away and then everybody dies. Eventually though, I was able to clear away enough of the tractor crap, orbital mass drivers, ion cannons and nearby fortresses that my units could get in there without dying in seconds. At that point, I was able to get my blob in there and sweep the guard posts (one or two at a time before my blob would lose critical mass) and then the command station (under about 40000 force fields of course).
I also had made the mistake of leaving the 'Avenger' on, which was kind of a downer. Between the Avenger and the >100 AIP jump the galaxy-level situation became a stalemate, at which point the AIs and I came to a mutual understanding and stopped shooting each other.
I'm not really sure what "clever" tactic exists to negate stuff like that rotating beam weapon guard post or the one that super charges nearby AI ships. When your attacking force is exterminated within seconds of entry, tactics become somewhat irrelevant.
While I'm aware of the concept of staging homeworld attacks from one world away, I still have to spend a bunch of time clearing out guard posts on the next-door MKIV world (which alerts the homeworld for a while) or accept a significant loss of forces in transit. Also, given how long it takes me to get there, it's kind of irrelevant - by the time I'm usually ready to launch a HW assault, the AI has stacked up at least hundreds of MK V ships there.
I've also read about some people staging attacks on the two homeworlds one right after the other, which is great but is difficult to execute when one homeworld is directly behind the other, and going around "the other way" would bring AI progress to the next mark level.
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I'm not really sure what "clever" tactic exists to negate stuff like that rotating beam weapon guard post or the one that super charges nearby AI ships.
Teleporters (waves and waves of them) or something like transports to absorb the first pass and getting into range, then rotating your fleet, and drawing the ships off the post, respectively.
When your attacking force is exterminated within seconds of entry, tactics become somewhat irrelevant.
That much is certainly true. But, if you have a fleet getting wiped within seconds, it really isn't supposed to be homeworld attack time. You need to capture more planets, or do something else to increase fleet power.
But this seems like a good time to bring up the mini-exos. They are incredibly annoying to me, because they strongly encourage tedious siege scenarios.
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But this seems like a good time to bring up the mini-exos. They are incredibly annoying to me, because they strongly encourage tedious siege scenarios.
Even with them spawning only on the AI HW in question? That wasn't working right after I first did it, but it should be working now.
I can also have it do what I offered before, with it only launching such an exo every 3 dead posts or something like that, so it isn't as frequent.
But it feels wrong that the AI wouldn't lash out in some way at such an attack.
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Even with them spawning only on the AI HW in question?
Yes.
I can also have it do what I offered before, with it only launching such an exo every 3 dead posts or something like that, so it isn't as frequent.
I don't think that would help.
But it feels wrong that the AI wouldn't lash out in some way at such an attack.
I think it's weird that the AI holds forces in reserve that it only uses after things go wrong.
And it already has the reserve, released threat, etc to definitely feel like it's reacting to a HW attack.
But thematics aside, the exos don't add to the difficulty, really. They just make the endgame assaults take more time and be less fun.
An overwhelming fleet still smashes the AI homeworld defenses, SR, etc, but has to pop the guardposts one at time, repair locally, repeat. But it'll still win.
A barely-wins fleet must take a while popping each post, with significant delays between attacks. It'll take a lot of casaulties each guardpost exo kill, making the whole assault take a really long time, repairing in my space between attacks. But it will still win.
There is a vanishingly small window where victory would be possible without the exos but isn't with them, admittedly.
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I think it's weird that the AI holds forces in reserve that it only uses after things go wrong.
It's got essentially infinite supplies of forces, the difference is in what it thinks is appropriate to assign to dealing with you. So there's a certain level of preventative force, and then if you demonstrate an actual credible threat it assigns more as a corrective force.
And it already has the reserve, released threat, etc to definitely feel like it's reacting to a HW attack.
In a mostly defensive form, meaning that either:
- the defensive response is sufficient, stonewalling you until a CPA comes along to challenge (and possibly defeat) your defenses
- the defensive response is insufficient, and you'll eventually whittle them down
So what I attempted to do (apparently unsuccessfully) with the on-core-guard-post-death exos was to add an offensive component to its response so that there was still a possibility of AI victory that wasn't via stonewalling.
It looks like the biggest problems with the current approach are:
- The response is per-core-guard-post, motivating popping one core guard post at a time
- The response happens _immediately_, motivating (perhaps simply requiring) that the player drop everything to deal with it
So still a multi-stage-boss-fight but more like if FF6's Kefka would, after every single time you hit him, went on some kind of mega-berserk-rampage that required you to stick to revive and heal actions for a good 4 turns or so. I can see the problem with that ;)
What I think might do better is:
- The first time a core guard post anywhere hits 50% health (or 75%, dunno; just trying to avoid motivating "trimming" all the posts before jumping in), it starts a 10-minute exo timer
- When that timer runs out, an exo is launched (from one of the AI HWs) and it tries to kill you, and the timer is reset to 30 minutes (not 10, so a longer interval) to try again later (and reset to 30 again after that)
The timers might be too long or too short, but the idea is:
- A massive-player-fleet situation will still probably have to deflect one of these endgame exos, unless the player's forces are so overwhelming as to allow a successful simultaneous assault on both AI homeworlds (in which case, well played).
- A less-dominating-player-fleet-situation may have to deal with 2 or 3 of these, and may or may not win, but (in theory) it won't take massively longer either way because the player has a significant window between the attacks to make another attempt (and the exo probably left them with a goodly amount of salvage)
- An unprepared player will die, fairly quickly (though the intensity of these on Diff 7 would need to be fairly low so they could probably handle it after a savescum or two)
Thoughts? Worst idea in the world? ;)
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I've been meaning to get back into AI War many, many times lately, but I have too many other games that take my focus right now. :/
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I've been meaning to get back into AI War many, many times lately, but I have too many other games that take my focus right now. :/
I wouldn't see that as a problem. I want AIW to become the best singleplayer/co-op vs-AI real-time-strategy (emphasis on strategy) game out there, but I certainly don't expect it to become the end-all-be-all of even that particular sub-genre, let alone any broader category. Playing other games is a good thing :)
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True enough, Keith, but I WANT to play AI War, it's just that I'm not in that kind of mental groove right now. Could have something to do with me being suffering pretty badly from stress atm, so I just can't commit to that kind of mental energy. But it's one of few games that have never been uninstalled on my computer :P
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True enough, Keith, but I WANT to play AI War, it's just that I'm not in that kind of mental groove right now. Could have something to do with me being suffering pretty badly from stress atm, so I just can't commit to that kind of mental energy. But it's one of few games that have never been uninstalled on my computer :P
That's actually been my exact situation with playing the game at times: it's a lot of fun if I get into it, but sometimes between work and kids and such I take a look at the game and my brain kind of wilts in fear ;) It's often easier to code than to play.
But then life changes and I've got energy for it again, etc.
Some games are good for relaxation. Some games are good for fully engaging the mind. The latter seem to be more rare, and that's the main goal here (while also not being unnecessarily anti-relaxation).
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Maybe this is better for the expansion, but the ending does need some work. I have asked this before, what is the expectation by the developer for the end of the game? Do we have to have multiple rebuilt armies to win the game? Is it expected to be a slow, gradual erosion of the home base? And right now, the AI does have some defensive structures which are absolutely ridiculous and have no counters, such as the Wrath Lance. Looking at a fully fortified home world after taking down a core world, it can be daunting, and you can only hope that you have the right toys for the job.
And I think that needs to be some kind of polish focus, where we need perhaps some defensive structures or spellcasting units, and put any needed timers on those.
If I'm a designer here, I'm trying to make the home world an interesting problem, not necessarily a slow grind. After all, to even get to that point, there's plenty of time spent, which is the main currency in this game for better or worse. "Is the amount of time that it's going to take to overcome the whole world worth it? Will it be fun?" I would rather have random surprises, unknown encounters, and having to be well prepared and make the right decisions in battle rather than try to erode some ridiculous home world. That's why I play with super weapons.
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Maybe this is better for the expansion, but the ending does need some work. I have asked this before, what is the expectation by the developer for the end of the game?
I want the homeworld assaults to be:
1) Fun
2) Dangerous
3) Not too long
In more detail:
1) "Fun" is the most subjective goal, but also the most important. If someone's not enjoying the endgame, then it's not doing its job (for them, at least). A few specific points that come to mind:
- Large battle(s), lots of explosions and space pew-pew, etc.
- An experience that's different enough from the rest of the game that the variety is refreshing.
- Variety from endgame to endgame, to at least some extent.
- The feeling that your preparations and choices (unlocks, captured stuff, hacks, etc) up to that point make a difference at the end.
- Avoiding the feeling that there's just nothing you can do except hurl your fleet at it on repeated suicide missions
2) "Dangerous" in that I don't want human-victory to be a given once the assault starts unless the player's skill level just thoroughly outclasses the scenario (difficulty level, etc). So:
- The AI's response to the assault can't be purely defensive
- The offensive component of the response needs to be pretty nasty, or at least what passes for "pretty nasty" on that difficulty
- The offensive component of the response needs to be focused on achieving an AI-win, rather than just pounding the player's empire to scrap (which could drag things out)
3) "Not too long" in that if it takes too long in inevitably fails to be fun (for most people, anyway), though this doesn't necessarily mean super-short either. Specifically:
- If the player's coming in with simply overwhelming force like a 4-5 city FS fleet, then it's ok if the homeworlds just kind of vaporize after whatever last-ditch defense is launched and defeated. The idea there is that the AI was throwing all those exos and whatnot preemptively precisely because it didn't think it could survive such an assault.
- If the player's coming in with a very high-power fleet (like a non-superweapon fleet with 20 planets worth of knowledge and a bunch of hacked/captured production facilities, or somewhat less than that plus some light/moderate superweapon support), then I wouldn't want the individual homeworld battles to last longer than about 10 minutes, with a total endgame ("beginning of assault" through "you win") time of about 30 minutes.
- If the player's coming in with a high power fleet (say, non-superweapons with 15-20 planets worth of knowledge and only a few hacked/captured production facilities), I'd think something more like 20 minutes per homeworld and an hour total. So an assault would involve either fairly careful play or a refleet.
- If the player's coming in with a moderate power fleet (say, non-superweapons with 10-15 planets worth of knowledge and either very few hacked/captured production facilities or having spent an above-average amount of K on non-offensive stuff) maybe 30 minutes per homeworld an 1.5 hours total. So an assault would probably involve at least one refleet.
- If the player's coming in with less than that then I still wouldn't want the endgame to run longer than an hour and a half. Either they pull out some remarkable play and win, or the AI's response crushes them
Do we have to have multiple rebuilt armies to win the game?
More than one refleet? Only if you're trying to win without a high-power fleet, or you make significant mistakes.
Is it expected to be a slow, gradual erosion of the home base?
I'd prefer if it weren't slow. But a HW might take multiple attacks. Say 2 or 3. But not 6, unless you didn't bring a big enough gun.
And right now, the AI does have some defensive structures which are absolutely ridiculous and have no counters, such as the Wrath Lance.
My understanding is that some of you have found efficient ways to deal with the Wrath Lance. Perhaps I misunderstood.
Anyway, the point of structures like that is to give you problems you haven't faced in the rest of the game, and push you to find clever ways of dealing with them. This can result in situations where some players will not see those solutions (or perhaps the solutions won't really apply in their particular circumstances) and it will look like a brick-wall-grinder. I don't immediately react to those situations with changing the structures because it may just be a learning-curve thing.
If y'all really do agree that there's just no reasonable solution to a particular structure, however, then I'm happy to find an alternate implementation.
Looking at a fully fortified home world after taking down a core world, it can be daunting, and you can only hope that you have the right toys for the job.
I think it's supposed to be daunting, though I'd prefer it to be daunting more in the sense of "this thing might kill me" than in the sense of "it could take me several hours to whittle this down". So more like melee combat with a raging bull than getting a 60oz steak set before you for dinner.
I would rather have random surprises, unknown encounters
That's a good thought. Having some part of the response be unpredictable, with a corresponding reduction in the beefiness of the predictable aspects (guard posts, etc).
Specific ideas on the random surprises and unknown encounters?
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So still a multi-stage-boss-fight but more like if FF6's Kefka would, after every single time you hit him, went on some kind of mega-berserk-rampage that required you to stick to revive and heal actions for a good 4 turns or so. I can see the problem with that ;)
A) It makes me happy that the Kefka boss fight is used as a point of reference.
B) As far as my HW assualts on 7 to 8 diffs, it generally takes me an hour or more of in game time and at least one refleet, unless I have Superweapons to crush really good alignments of Homeworld GPs.
Wraith Lance: Its just really annoying for me to deal with. Admittedly I am pretty bad at playing ring around the rosie with death lasers. If anyone does have a good way of dealing with those, I would be interested.
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- The response is per-core-guard-post, motivating popping one core guard post at a time
- The response happens _immediately_, motivating (perhaps simply requiring) that the player drop everything to deal with it
I agree.
- The first time a core guard post anywhere hits 50% health (or 75%, dunno; just trying to avoid motivating "trimming" all the posts before jumping in), it starts a 10-minute exo timer
- When that timer runs out, an exo is launched (from one of the AI HWs) and it tries to kill you, and the timer is reset to 30 minutes (not 10, so a longer interval) to try again later (and reset to 30 again after that)
I approve. Heartily. The times sound like a good starting point, too.
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So still a multi-stage-boss-fight but more like if FF6's Kefka would, after every single time you hit him, went on some kind of mega-berserk-rampage that required you to stick to revive and heal actions for a good 4 turns or so. I can see the problem with that ;)
I must've leveled up too much in FFVI...I always crushed Kefka. Exdeath, on the other hand...
Wraith Lance: Its just really annoying for me to deal with. Admittedly I am pretty bad at playing ring around the rosie with death lasers. If anyone does have a good way of dealing with those, I would be interested.
I've heard that some people could take it out with Teleporting Units or Transports. However, the Gravity brutal pick would make Transports ineffective, and you are certainly not guaranteed a teleporting unlock. I've only seen it once myself, though.
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I've heard that some people could take it out with Teleporting Units or Transports. However, the Gravity brutal pick would make Transports ineffective, and you are certainly not guaranteed a teleporting unlock. I've only seen it once myself, though.
*points to signature*
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I must've leveled up too much in FFVI...I always crushed Kefka. Exdeath, on the other hand..
The general rule of thumb is, if you pick up all of the optional characters in any Final Fantasy, you're ready to move on to the boss. They also have done a great job of gating all of the bosses with appropriate lieutenants; if you can take the lieutenant, you have shot at winning against the boss.
But back to this problem, because I don't want to derail from straightening out striking the AI homeworld, I think what would fix the wrath lance are one or more of the following:
1) distance from the Wrath lance should affect the damage; it doesn't matter whether far or close, just pick one so there is some tactical decision-making.
2) Wrath lance does decreasing damage to successive targets
3) Wrath lance is weak to one of the triangle ships, including its attack
4) fun idea: The Wrath Lance has orbiting drones that are targetable, allowing the destruction of one arm of the lance. Turning on auto-kiting would make this interesting.
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I've heard that some people could take it out with Teleporting Units or Transports. However, the Gravity brutal pick would make Transports ineffective, and you are certainly not guaranteed a teleporting unlock. I've only seen it once myself, though.
*points to signature*
And if all else fails, THE MIGHTY HUMAN/SPIRE ALLIANCE SHALL CRUSH THE AI!!!! Sure the Wraith Lance, and the rest of the nasty Core Guardpost, can and likely will take out an FS fleet, even a 5+ City fleet. However, an FS fleet CAN and will take out that Wraith Lance, and likely several other Core Guardposts, before they finally fall. Assuming your defenses can handle the resulting counter-exos, all you need to do is rebuild your FS fleet, and a second run will almost certainly finish the job.
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My thoughts on the timer mechanic would be more as follows:
-When a guard post hits 50% (or whatever value) an exo spawns on that AI Homeworld immediately with the short term goal of pushing the player out of the system.
-If the exo is crushing the player's forces (kills, as opposed to retreats) then the exo takes on the long term goal of killing the player's command station
-If the player is retreating, kill what can be killed and then despawn back to the warpgrid
And...now that I typed this, I'm not sure about it either.
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My thoughts on the timer mechanic would be more as follows:
-If the player is retreating, kill what can be killed and then despawn back to the warpgrid
So these would be Neinzul units?
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My thoughts were more along the lines of the AI "dealing with this very active problem right now" in a way that if the player follows the desired goal (retreat) the AI doesn't pursue. That is, so you don't have to actually fight off a continuous influx of exos, slowing down the grind through the homeworlds.
Not unless you were utterly unprepared and got wiped out, in which case the AI sees you as weak and vulnerable and goes for the throat.
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-When a guard post hits 50% (or whatever value) an exo spawns on that AI Homeworld immediately with the short term goal of pushing the player out of the system.
(...)
-If the player is retreating, kill what can be killed and then despawn back to the warpgrid
Those two are pretty much exactly what the Strategic Reserve does.
-If the exo is crushing the player's forces (kills, as opposed to retreats) then the exo takes on the long term goal of killing the player's command station
I'd rather this be a separate thing so that:
1) It's not an additional brick in a potential stonewall-defense. A delayed spawn (even if it happens on that HW) avoids it being just a "NOPE".
2) It can be super-focused on just one job: kill the player. Or at least make it more likely that the player feels threatened, and thus that the assault is not just a formality.
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-If the player is retreating, kill what can be killed and then despawn back to the warpgrid
That strikes me as a grade-A recipe for stalemate, which is the worst possible outcome: boring and frustrating.
I like Keith's idea because it should make stalemates almost impossible. The exos will kill you, or you will kill the AI to make them stop.
A couple questions, though:
Will the exos stop once you kill the first AI Homeworld, assuming the other isn't damaged?
Will the exos gradually (or quickly) become stronger?
I think they both should happen, the first to encourage actually taking the HWs one at a time in some cases, the second to *engage euphemism module* resolve stalemates conclusively.
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-When a guard post hits 50% (or whatever value) an exo spawns on that AI Homeworld immediately with the short term goal of pushing the player out of the system.
(...)
-If the player is retreating, kill what can be killed and then despawn back to the warpgrid
Those two are pretty much exactly what the Strategic Reserve does.
Exactly. I was just giving it a clearly defined "this will happen" trigger. But yes, I was seeing it basically being like the strategic reserve, except that if it's crushing you, it doesn't just go away.
But like I said, after typing it out, I wasn't happy with what I had and couldn't figure out why.
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-If the player is retreating, kill what can be killed and then despawn back to the warpgrid
That strikes me as a grade-A recipe for stalemate, which is the worst possible outcome: boring and frustrating.
I like Keith's idea because it should make stalemates almost impossible. The exos will kill you, or you will kill the AI to make them stop.
A couple questions, though:
Will the exos stop once you kill the first AI Homeworld, assuming the other isn't damaged?
Will the exos gradually (or quickly) become stronger?
I think they both should happen, the first to encourage actually taking the HWs one at a time in some cases, the second to *engage euphemism module* resolve stalemates conclusively.
I present the reason the Grav Reactor Core Guardpost is not protected by CSGs - The Snake map. A Snake Map, or any similar accidental layout where one AI HW blocks the path to the other and has a Grav Reactor, means an endless stream of Exowaves every 30 minutes for the entire second half of the game. Not fun.
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I present the reason the Grav Reactor Core Guardpost is not protected by CSGs - The Snake map. A Snake Map, or any similar accidental layout where one AI HW blocks the path to the other and has a Grav Reactor, means an endless stream of Exowaves every 30 minutes for the entire second half of the game. Not fun.
Yes, that would be a nightmare. So I'd assume that the grav reactor would be exempt from the exo-triggering rule.
And it's another reason the exos should stop when you actually kill their home.
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Yea, I'd already thought of the grav reactor, it needs to not trigger the rule or the RNG would die laughing (right after ensuring that every single graph splitting AI HW got at least one grav reactor).
Will the exos stop once you kill the first AI Homeworld, assuming the other isn't damaged?
I hadn't thought of that, but it's probably best to do it that way to avoid making "kill one, rest, kill the other" too painful.
Will the exos gradually (or quickly) become stronger?
Yep :) Must Terminate Hostilities, after all.
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In exchange for this exo timer idea, what's coming out? And how do you stop the timer?
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In exchange for this exo timer idea, what's coming out? And how do you stop the timer?
Those thorn-in-the-side exos triggered by the death of core guard posts.
I'm not sure if killing the AI home station stops the current timer (I don't think it should), though it will stop the timer from resetting.
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I have made a rather interesting breakthrough regarding plasma siege starships. It seems that they are not so much 'annoying' as they are 'impossible to kill'. I have a two city spire fleet, spirecraft siege towers, an armored golem, and a shadow battleship, and full sets of flagship, zenith cruiser, and plasma siege in a control group, and I am using this group as my general offensive fleet.
The plasma siege starships never die. Everything else gets replaced repeatedly, but these 10m hp artillery hulls? Never take damage.
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Something I have noticed about plasma siege is that they get autotargetted... poorly. When you actually order an attack against them they pop reasonably quick if you have sufficient forces. But your sufficient forces will almost always find other things to attack rather than the plasma siege unless you manually target it.
And I think the AI has this issue, too; I have definitely noticed that plasma siege ships in mixed fleets seem to never need to be replaced.
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Hmm idea of constant exo's after attacking AI H/w is curious. I never taken one b normal means tho - always had fallen spire fleet on hand for that task.
Wouldn't exo's like that make wrath lance unstoppable? You are pretty much forced to kill it in waves and if you kill any other post before it exo's will make sure you can't do that by threatening you. So it would be nice winning guard post for AI unless you have a way to kill it with one wave of ships and quickly rebuild and finish H/W.
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constant exo's after attacking AI H/w is curious.
They wouldn't be constant. You'd get one within 10 minutes, then one every half hour.
Wouldn't exo's like that make wrath lance unstoppable?
No.
You are pretty much forced to kill it in waves and if you kill any other post before it exo's will make sure you can't do that by threatening you.
It's definitely possible to kill a wrath lance with one wave. And the exos wouldn't prevent attacking.
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I am beginning to like this timed exo idea less and less; we are trading finite waves for timed waves?
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If the homeworld assaults are balanced such that they take the amount of time they are supposed to (30 minutes - an hour) you are trading one wave per core guardpost for only 2-3 waves, which seems like a fair trade in exchange for the waves ramping up and crushing you if you foolishly attack the homeworld too early.
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Something I have noticed about plasma siege is that they get autotargetted... poorly. When you actually order an attack against them they pop reasonably quick if you have sufficient forces. But your sufficient forces will almost always find other things to attack rather than the plasma siege unless you manually target it.
And I think the AI has this issue, too; I have definitely noticed that plasma siege ships in mixed fleets seem to never need to be replaced.
Bear in mind that the graphics are representational: the Plasma Siege Starship is actually painted pink all over, and employs an SEP (http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Somebody_Else's_Problem_field)
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There seem to be quite a few people who think the Wrath Lance is only beatable by grinding. Would people care to share methods of knocking it out that do not involve fleetwiping? For me, I always try to get at least one source of teleporting ships. It's not so unusual to lose most or all of that cap once or twice (particularly any mark I or II ships), but it's not much of a grind and actually quite fun doing the micromanaging and judging whether to cut my losses and run now or hold off a few seconds more and maybe finish the lance off on this round. Across a typical game, it's normal to be able to find at least one source of teleporting ships, sometimes requiring hacking an ARS though. What other methods do people use? Typically, I try to get a scout to each of the homeworlds to check what the brutal picks are as early as possible, so I can try my best to ensure I've got something suitable by the endgame.
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Since the Wraith Lance only turns on when it can "see" a threat, cloaked ships will not trigger it. Abuse this. Get cloaking (cloaker starships may help) and stand down mode, and get in close where it is easier to micro out of the way as the "speed" of the beams is slower there (due to basic principles of rotation of straight objects)
Re: The plasma seige starship
A bit of a health nerf (not by a huge amount, just a bit) and making sure their "aggro value" is appropriately set seem like worthwhile things to try.
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Can we just swap the hull types of every single starship around? Lets make flagships and spire city fleets 'artillery', and make plasma siege 'heavy'. I think tha would solve the problem.
(the heavy hulltype has imo been in a really bad place in general for a long time)
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Typically, I try to get a scout to each of the homeworlds to check what the brutal picks are as early as possible, so I can try my best to ensure I've got something suitable by the endgame.
I would love to do that. However, on a 120 planet map, that is easier said than done...unless I want to either sink a ton of time or knowledge into scouting.
That said, in my current high-AIP game, I might unlock Scout SS IV for missile immunity...
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Seems like there are very few ships with anti-artillery bonuses. I'm not sure how the game figures out targetting priority; I think things usually attack whatever they'll kill the fastest, so I'm guessing bombers tend to shoot down missile frigates first.
Also, how do you use cloaking vs a Wrath Lance? You'll only ever encounter those on an AI homeworld where the AI has global tachyon coverage from the AI Home Command Station. Do cloaker starships supercloak things right through tachyon? If not, your only recourse is a sensor hack. On the other hand, you always have the option of a sensor hack if you have HaP available, regardless of your unlocks or expansions. Assuming you can survive the response combined with an AI homeworlds defenses, and assuming you can keep the hacking device alive long enough for the hack to start...
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I'm generally fine with HW assaults at the moment.
However, I've never found an easy way to beat a Wrath Lance - generally I'll dump a bunch of ships as close to it as possible and hope it dies before they do. And it usually takes a lot down with it. Charging 18 empty transports followed by two transports full of bombers usually gets the bombers in range if there isn't stuff in the way. But even once my ships are close, microing them to rotate around it faster than the beams (while also not going too fast and running into the next beam) never seems to work, for me at least. Are other people doing this reliably?
It had never occurred to me to try microing teleporters though - do they really get though it's health in a reasonable time?
And isn't the cloaking to get close countered by the planetary tachyon coverage?
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IIRC only core Eyes have Planetary Tachyon Coverage, not the AI Home Command Center. Although that could have changed since I last encountered an AI homeworld.
As for the Wrath Lance, I did have one interesting idea: what if it could not affect swarmer or small ships? Conceptually, they would be small enough to get in between the gaps in the beams (while larger ships would be unable to). There's already a ton of stuff that counters those on the AI's worlds; it would be kind of nice to see a change that actually favors them.
I'm not saying that is the best approach; I'm just pondering changes that might be beneficial.
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Although that could have changed since I last encountered an AI homeworld.
It did. The home stations have the planetary tachyon now.
Conceptually, they would be small enough to get in between the gaps in the beams (while larger ships would be unable to). There's already a ton of stuff that counters those on the AI's worlds; it would be kind of nice to see a change that actually favors them.
That would be a good change, I agree.
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On the other hand, you always have the option of a sensor hack if you have HaP available
Yeah because that wouldn't "wake up" the Wrath Lance.
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IDK about changing hull types around. As long as artillery hull type is named artillery, then plasma seige, if any type if any starship, should have that hull type.
IMO, the hull type situation needs a big rebalance anyways. I honestly think that having hull type trying to conditionally model three things (ship size, hull material, ship role) just muddies the issue, and leads to such "clustering" of hull type assignments and hull type bonuses like we do now.
I think a reasonable short term fix will be to give a few things an artillery bonus that would make sense to have it. (And maybe a bit of a health nerf for the PSS too)
For tbe long term, I hope the hull type situation can be readjustsd some when the armor situation is addressed.
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Although that could have changed since I last encountered an AI homeworld.
It did. The home stations have the planetary tachyon now.
That makes me sad--yet another strategy that is useless on the homeworlds :'(
I can't help but wonder--with everything else, does the AI's Home Command Center still need things like Counters Missiles? Do they really need Planetary Tachyon Coverage ???? A lot of the issue with Homeworlds, in my opinion, is they are like huge pieces of steak (using someone else's analogy), but I am only allowed to eat it with a butter knife and a plastic fork. Sure, I can eat it...but it's going to be frustrating and take forever.
I would rather look at the Homeworlds and think "that might kill me; I'd better be ready for the response" than "I'm perfectly safe, but killing that is going to take another 5 hours." Right now, only the Core CPA and Raid Engine posts give any concern for my planets (note: I have not yet faced the retaliatory waves from the guard posts; I think I was playing Skyward Collapse or Bionic Dues at that time). I don't mind the defenses being much stronger than even Core worlds, but I don't want to spend hours just because the only strategy that 'works' is a mindless zerg on one or two posts at a go. I'd rather some of those strategies be permitted, but the AI being far more aggressive against me when I'm on their front lawn. Like FS Galactic Transceiver pissed, although scaled appropriately for the superweapons available.
Thoughts?
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that is easier said than done...unless I want to either sink a ton of time ... into scouting.
That's how I tend to do it. The way I look at it, the homeworlds are like a puzzle that has to be picked apart, and so I try and find all the tools I need along my way through the game. I'm always going to want access to MkIV ships, so advanced factories are chosen (or hacked) according to strategic placement, but the ARSs, core and experimental fabs I capture/hack are all chosen with the end goal of taking down the homeworld with minimum pain. As a consequence, I try to avoid making decisions about these until I know what I'm facing.
It had never occurred to me to try microing teleporters though - do they really get though it's health in a reasonable time?
It's not too bad. None of the three teleporting fleet ship types get a bonus against heavy hulls, so it's not super speedy, and as the wrath lance tends to *need* to be (one of) the first guardpost(s) you kill, you tend to have pretty high attrition with the ships you're using from the reserve pouring in. Still, it "only" has 60 million health, with pretty negligible armour, so all the damage coming from your ships has a noticeable effect. Typically, if I've got full MkI-IV caps of a teleporting ship, I'll micro them until the MkI and II ships are mostly gone, then pull out the MkIII and IV ships to be repaired while the Mk I and II ships are being rebuilt, which doesn't typically take too long. It takes a few goes, but it's fun and challenging rather than grinding, frustrating and boring. At least to me.
Also, like nitpik, I don't much mind homeworld assaults as they are, but I don't play above difficulty 8 either. Sooner or later I'm going to meet a wrath lance sitting next to a superfortress or some other major unpleasantness, and I'm going to find that frustrating, I'm sure.
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Is there consensus that the wrath lance needs a counter?
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Is there consensus that the wrath lance needs a counter?
A counter? Do you mean, adjusting the hull-type or something so there are more common units that get bonuses against it?
Or do you mean, a nerf? I'd be opposed to a nerf, I think. It's an obvious and dangerous guardpost, but it doesn't even enter my Top 5 most feared Core Guardpost list.
1) Core CPA
2) Core Raid Engine
3) Cthulhu (Teuthida)
4) Grav Reactor
5) H/K Factory
If the Core Implosion Guardpost had 60,000,000 HP like the others, it'd be #6, but instead that's where the Wrath Lance sits.
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A counter means, some sort of exploitable weakness. I'm fine with ship bonuses or some way of slowing the rotation, disabling beams, and so on. There are strategic and tactical decisions to be made here, if the design allows it.
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I'd agree with Toranth that there are other guardposts that are generally way more painful to deal with. The wrath Lance's counter is for all practical purposes teleporting units. I'd say that the better answer would be to add more variety of teleporting units to the game rather than nerf the wrath lance or add extra weaknesses.
My biggest problem with homeworlds isn't the individual items on them, it's the combinations that occasionally get seeded next to each other. A Core Raid Engine can be knocked down without too much pain, a Core Raid Engine under a forcefield along with a superfortress is agony.
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[... ]Top 5 most feared Core Guardpost list. [...]5) H/K Factory
H/K Factory is too easy. During the whole AI homeworld assault it sent only 1 Mark I H/K. At least the Mark level of the H/Ks should be the same as tech level.
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Also Cthulhu guard post is completely negated by Scout Starship + not using anything reclaimable.
Grav Reactor and Core Raid Engine are unambiguously nasty though.
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A counter means, some sort of exploitable weakness. I'm fine with ship bonuses or some way of slowing the rotation, disabling beams, and so on. There are strategic and tactical decisions to be made here, if the design allows it.
Possibly hitting a forcefield (like a Riot Shield) delays further rotation by X seconds? That way you'd have a core game unit that could do it rather than relying on getting one of the few teleporting types.
It might conceivably make it too easy/straightforward, but with all the other stuff going on during such an assault I think it'd be fine.
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A counter means, some sort of exploitable weakness. I'm fine with ship bonuses or some way of slowing the rotation, disabling beams, and so on. There are strategic and tactical decisions to be made here, if the design allows it.
Possibly hitting a forcefield (like a Riot Shield) delays further rotation by X seconds? That way you'd have a core game unit that could do it rather than relying on getting one of the few teleporting types.
It might conceivably make it too easy/straightforward, but with all the other stuff going on during such an assault I think it'd be fine.
Its like trying to hold open some kind of crusher in movies, except instead of using a crowbar, you use a cap of shieldbearers.
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Also, protector starships dont seem to have counter-sniper of any sort?
Do they really need one? :) They're so OP in some ways (just a few can shut down a fort, etc) it seems odd to add to it.
Hey, someone watched my video. :D
Protectors are really strong, I wouldn't add any extra protective ability to them. Counter Sniper can be achieved in other ways already.
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[... ]Top 5 most feared Core Guardpost list. [...]5) H/K Factory
H/K Factory is too easy. During the whole AI homeworld assault it sent only 1 Mark I H/K. At least the Mark level of the H/Ks should be the same as tech level.
The issue I have with it is that it will trigger once when I start clearing the Core World I intend to attack through, then again when I actually attack. Stopping to clean up two H/Ks is a time/ship sop, and if it gets away from you (or just joins the Threatfleet sitting on the AI HW), it can really be annoying.
Plus, it and the CRE are the only guardposts that can threaten you before you attack the homeworlds.
Also Cthulhu guard post is completely negated by Scout Starship + not using anything reclaimable.
Yeah, but I like to use that 75% of my fleetships that aren't immune to reclamation... like all my Mk IV stuff.
Grav Reactor and Core Raid Engine are unambiguously nasty though.
Especially together. Grav and CRE next to each other, under glass, on the far side of the system from the wormholes.
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Especially together. Grav and CRE next to each other, under glass, on the far side of the system from the wormholes.
Hey, even an RNG needs a hobby.
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Especially together. Grav and CRE next to each other, under glass, on the far side of the system from the wormholes.
Hey, even an RNG needs to be roasted slowly over an open fire
TIFTFY ;)
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"slowly over an open fire" sounds far too gentle for its offenses ;)
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A counter means, some sort of exploitable weakness. I'm fine with ship bonuses or some way of slowing the rotation, disabling beams, and so on. There are strategic and tactical decisions to be made here, if the design allows it.
Possibly hitting a forcefield (like a Riot Shield) delays further rotation by X seconds? That way you'd have a core game unit that could do it rather than relying on getting one of the few teleporting types.
It might conceivably make it too easy/straightforward, but with all the other stuff going on during such an assault I think it'd be fine.
Sure, fine, anything really. Just something.
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What would it take for Sensor Hacks to be an effective counter to the Wrath Lance? I haven't ever seen one, but I like the idea of that being a counter, since cloaking used to be effective against wrath lances.
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The thing is, making cloaking effective against the wrath lance likely makes it effective against everything else, which in turn makes the homeworld, frankly, not that much of a challenge.
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Maybe the homeworld should be split into sub-sectors with various exclusion rules that denies certain combinations of outposts/unit spawns.
Basically, I think the game can already do this by the way.
First stage
Outer defenses -> Next jump is in the center, guarded by a core forcefield, the generator is in this outer sector, protected by outpost etc.. So basically you have to kill or hack/or whatever you do to disable things and then proceed to the next stage
Inner-sector is basically you enter from the center, there are 5 protection outposts at the 5 corners of a circle centered on the entrance warp-point. You kill those and back in Stage 1 a new wormhole spawns, that leads you directly to the core command station (now unshielded). (expand with secondary security systems as you wish depending on AI type)
This way you could have certainty that nothing extremely imbalanced will be grouped together. Also NOTHING on those 3 stages will ever leave it's stages to hunt you down (unless you destroy the AI home station). But entering 1 alerts all 3 stages for eternity.
Feasible for a patch? :P
Well... probably not. But it'd be nice to have some kind of structure to the assault. Currently it's more like a grind.