Author Topic: Somewhat silly question for old timers..  (Read 11362 times)

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2012, 09:48:59 am »
To me, "blobbing", is lack of tactics in favor of raw firepower. If you don't need to think and can just send your "blob" of ships against the enemy ships without any risk of losing anything significant, that is blobbing.

This is what blobbing is. It's when you can just use raw firepower to ignore enemy fleet composition or numbers. As long as your guns are bigger, you win. Personally... I'm kinda fine with that, the only real problem I have is that it used to be much more forced when all the reinforcements were so homogenous. If the focused forces do indeed pan out well, it means your more specialized ships can bring down more specialized enemy ships more efficiently, rather than you being forced to shove your big number into the face of an enemy's smaller number.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2012, 10:08:45 am »
AI War: the game in which you *are* encouraged to 1a2a3a4a5a...
Bah, amateurs.  REAL blobbers just put all units into one group!


To me, "blobbing", is lack of tactics in favor of raw firepower. If you don't need to think and can just send your "blob" of ships against the enemy ships without any risk of losing anything significant, that is blobbing.

This is what blobbing is. It's when you can just use raw firepower to ignore enemy fleet composition or numbers. As long as your guns are bigger, you win. Personally... I'm kinda fine with that, the only real problem I have is that it used to be much more forced when all the reinforcements were so homogenous. If the focused forces do indeed pan out well, it means your more specialized ships can bring down more specialized enemy ships more efficiently, rather than you being forced to shove your big number into the face of an enemy's smaller number.
The 'problem' that encourages blobbing is that there is no drawback to it.  More firepower, on the other hand, ALWAYS helps.  AI Eyes are an attempt to counter this, but even there just just raid until all guardposts (and the Eye) are gone, THEN you Blob-o-doom the AI.  That is the optimal tactic; all other concerns are strategic (economic) at best, aesthetic at worst.

Only if limited wormhole ship transits, or planet max pop, or something like that - that forced the player choose which units to bring and which to leave behind - was implemented would there be a reason not to blob.  It may not be pretty, or elegant.  But it's really easy to lose a battle by bringing too little force; it's real hard to lose one by bringing too much force.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2012, 10:16:34 am »
Toranth is on the right track:

There is little penalty not to bring overwhelming force. Sending them all into FRD isn't efficent, but sending the fleetball to group move and slay each guardpost before leaving the wormhole and dragging any remaining defenders as threat is brutally effective to neutering a planet.

Or, if you send in the whole fleetball and that "alerts" the enemy planet, you can send the fleetball back under the wormhole...if you hide on another ai planet, the alerted craft then try to pursue you allowing you to pick them off as they come in piecemail against your whole fleet.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 10:19:48 am by chemical_art »
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2012, 10:21:50 am »
I was of the opinion that bringing in a smaller fleet means the rest of your fleet can do what they want while the other fleet cleans up. The lack of necessary micro means you could set up a good battle plan and check back every once in a while as you do other things. The fact that you're strictly limited to how many ships you have of each type does mean that only attacking on one front at once means that fleet isn't doing other things. You're just sorta sitting there waiting for the enemy to fall to your blob of doom that can't actually die, or managing the economy or your shadow vessel or something.

Let's say, as a simple scenario, your fighters would totally clean up a planet, but the planet is high-value and special forces will rush to aid. The rest of your fleet has their own things they can counter and clean up far more efficiently, but what decision do you ultimately make? Multitask as you can? Take no chances with the special forces and lose out on some time and utility of your entire fleet?

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2012, 10:28:12 am »
Well, part of it is that I always attack on planet at a time. I never have needed to attack more then one planet at once aside from homeworld assaults, and even then its matter of neutering both ai homeworlds before finishing them off.

I used to split up my fleets for defense and offense, but now I find in generally best if I bring in my whole fleet in to attack. I accomplish whatever goal I have done fastest, leaving my fleet away from defense for the least amount of time.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2012, 10:38:34 am »
Simply selecting your full cap of ships and sending them over to another planet, possibly even using FRD if you want to be extra lazy.
I think the definition of blobbing is dependent on who you are. To some, it's simply a bunch of units against a smaller bunch of units. To others, it's the lack of micro in a bunch of units.

To me, "blobbing", is lack of tactics in favor of raw firepower. If you don't need to think and can just send your "blob" of ships against the enemy ships without any risk of losing anything significant, that is blobbing.
I agree with both of these definitions.

To actually expound upon Moonshine Fox's definition, some strategies even OPERATE simply by putting your entire army on FRD.  Enclave Ships + Neinzul Ships can basically win the game this way.

The best strategy now (that I've encountered) is to take your entire blob, move it to the enemy planet, then fight until you start getting overwhelmed.  Then you leave and since you've probably alerted everything on the planet, you can bait the whole enemy force into your turrets and crush them easily.  That's not very exciting or strategic, since you can do it the same way every time.  Eyes add a little more diversity, but that's basically another formula of sending your Raid Starships in to kill the Guard Posts, then going back to the first strategy.

My theory (keyword here is theory) is that the game would be a lot more interesting if you didn't WANT to wake up the entire enemy hornet's nest at once.  And in fact, this is the way it used to be before it changed somewhere around 4.0ish.  Something should encourage you to only send the necessary fleet to attack the planet, clearing out bits and pieces of its forces until you've removed most of the major threat, then you can send in your entire fleet.

A fun strategy that a lot of people miss is the "Beachhead" Strategy, which really isn't useful anymore except in a few rare situations.  To bring back a scenario where you feared to awaken the whole enemy planet, Beachheads would become a lot more useful and ideal than they are now.

But then the question becomes, how do we punish the player for simply waking up the entire enemy planet?  My answer is simply Guardians.  I think Guardians in their current incarnation are rather boring and homogenized.  Though they have cool and unique abilities, they basically only act as a force multiplier, and you deal with them all basically in the same way (blobbing), so they've lost a lot of their personality.

I think if you made EACH Guardian extremely powerful and difficult to deal with, the game would be so much more enjoyable and interesting.  Instead of assaulting Guardians head-on, you'd have to fight around them, only activating each Guardian when you had the right counters in the right places.  Activating a planet full of Guardians would spell disaster, as even bringing them into your defenses would bring swift defeat.

But how do you accomplish this?  It's simple, you just take the Guardians in their current form, and buff the hell out of them.  For example, to approach a Lightning Guardian with a swarm of units, you'd lose most of your army instantly.  Instead, we give it the "Light" Hull Type and make it so that Frigates are intended to kill it from afar.  You could approach a Flak Guardian with your whole army, but it'll eat smaller stuff alive, so instead send your Starships and it will do rather crappy damage so you can take it out.  Sniper Guardians become long-range harbingers of death, so blobbing with one of these on the planet means you'll lose most of your army from a distance.  Instead, send a group of Fighters to activate it and take it out.

Some Guardians would still require "blobbing", or using your whole force.  For example, Vampire Guardians would literally steal so much health that with insufficient firepower you couldn't defeat them.

In other words, how you dealt with each individual planet completely depends on what fleet ships and Guardians on that planet.  Each planet is a different and unique foe that depends on what Guardians and forces are there, and how you need to deal with them.  Instead of most planets having 10-15 weak Guardians, most now would have maybe 2-3.  But to activate them all at once (by sending your whole force) would spell disaster.

I think this makes the game a lot more interesting because every scenario, every planet is a different experience.  There's no "best" way to deal with each planet.  That highly depends on what units you have and what units they have.  That's just my opinion though, some people seem fine with the current "send everything and retreat when necessary" mechanics, I just find it very grindy and formulaic.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2012, 10:48:48 am »
The AI Eyes were implemented to discourage blobbing. This they do. They provide an obstacle that have to be strategized around. If there were more penalty for alerting planets with a fleet or similar, blobbing could be further discouraged. I'm not entirely sure how to do that, or if it would really benefit the game in any way or just make it more of a bore.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2012, 10:50:20 am »
But how does that prevent the current strategy of baiting the ai?

Some guardians like lightning guardians do it well because they have true aoe. But how do for example you stop the flak guardian. You say "it will eat your fleet alive". Well unless it is doing a several hundred thousand dps it will not. It will still die due to the firepower of your own blob for it will live maybe 4 seconds of direct fire. IF the guardian can survive more then 4 or 5 seconds of your blob attacking it, then attacking the guardian with just your starship means it will survive 20 or 30 seconds, and with its massive dps needed to crush a blob fleet even with a reduction of damage your starships will still start falling. Never mind that most starships use the same hulls as smaller craft (heavy bombers = bomber hull, siege starship = missile frigate hull, spire starship = fighter hull).

For the sniper, you say it will slay your whole blob, but unless you make it tie its dps directly to the fleet size sending a smaller fleet will be even more ineffictive for while the blob will take heavy casualties, the smaller force won't survive at all. You might say you mean the blob moves to slow to get to it, but I will say the blob may move half the speed of the fighter, the fastest fleetship, but it has 5x the health. So if you make the dps so that half the blob is dead by the time it reaches the sniper, then the fighters alone would be dead before they got to the sniper in the first place. And at worst, I would move the whole blob in and tell "counter" to purse the sniper while the rest of the blob eats fire from the sniper so the counters can live to take the guardian before dieing themselves.


And with each guardian so strong, what do you do if you face a lightning guardian, which is anti blob, and a vampire guardian which is pro blob, and a flak guardian, which is anti-fleetship? If any one guardian can stop a blob, how do you stop three guardians?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 10:56:06 am by chemical_art »
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2012, 11:01:44 am »
The AI Eyes were implemented to discourage blobbing. This they do. They provide an obstacle that have to be strategized around. If there were more penalty for alerting planets with a fleet or similar, blobbing could be further discouraged. I'm not entirely sure how to do that, or if it would really benefit the game in any way or just make it more of a bore.
I don't have a problem with blobbing for blobbing's sake.  I have a problem with blobbing because it makes the game very grindy and formulaic, as well as lacking in strategical value that it could have.  Likewise, taking out Eyes is also very formulaic.  I don't see how either of these mechanics add anything to the game.

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But how does that prevent the current strategy of baiting the ai?
Because activating too many Guardians at once means that even your defenses can't hold them off.  You should try to deal with them individually if you can.

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Some guardians like lightning guardians do it well because they have true aoe. But how do for example you stop the flak guardian. You say "it will eat your fleet alive". Well unless it is doing a several hundred thousand dps it will not. It will still die due to the firepower of your own blob for it will live maybe 4 seconds of direct fire. IF the guardian can survive more then 4 or 5 seconds of your blob attacking it, then attacking the guardian with just your starship means it will survive 20 or 30 seconds, and with its massive dps needed to crush a blob fleet even with a reduction of damage your starships will still start falling.
For example we could give the Flak Guardian bonuses against Polycrystal, Light, and Artillery, so that the idea is that you want to attack it with Starships instead.

In other words, I'm not so concerned with what each Guardian does.  I'm more concerned with making the game so that each Guardian has to be approached in a different and unique way, and that tackling multiple Guardians (for this reason) can be extremely tricky.

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For the sniper, you say it will slay your whole blob, but unless you make it tie its dps directly to the fleet size sending a smaller fleet will be even more ineffictive for while the blob will take heavy casualties, the smaller force won't survive at all.
Well I meant that if you send your entire fleet, you'll activate it.  If you only send the smaller squadron of Fighters, you'll be on top of it as it turns on, giving you a chance to kill it before it inflicts too much damage.

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And with each guardian so strong, what do you do if you face a lightning guardian, which is anti blob, and a vampire guardian which is pro blob, and a flak guardian, which is anti-fleetship? If any one guardian can stop a blob, how do you stop three guardians?
That's half the fun!  HOW DO you deal with this?!  Do you try to separate the Guardians from one another?  Do you bait 1 in one direction and try to deal with it individually?  Do you send a missile to weaken them all so you can take them out?  Do you make massive forcefields and attack from under them, doing reduced damage, but protecting yourself from some of the punishment?

I mean to me, this kind of scenario is HILARIOUS.  It really pushes your critical thinking and strategical skills to the limit.  I'd love to encounter situations like that.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2012, 11:05:18 am »
It sounds like an ai plot or ai type. Because while interesting it breaks so many things for newer players.

You are having guardians that counter the whole triangle (flak guardian), guardians that are acting like mini eyes (the ion eye is doing what you are already describing), and wanting to punish the player from pursing the tactic of blobbing.

It would be fine if you were expecting it, but something that seems to me like playing any "red" ai type: A massive exercise in frustration just to say "I did it."

To put it another way: It would be so frustrating to me I would stop playing AI wars unless I could disable it. If I wanted to fight golem like craft I turn on exo waves or play against the golemite ai type (Although even golems except for the botnet can't stop blobbing, and your craft can, making them super golems?). If I want to be punished for blobbing I'll play a defensive ai type. This sounds like the blending of the the two concepts, and would be fine as its own ai type.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 11:12:53 am by chemical_art »
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2012, 11:12:02 am »
I made a new thread for the anti-blobbing mechanic discussion: New  thread.

I feel that we've strayed a bit away from the threads original purpose, and this new discussion could use with a more focused thread so more people can chime in on it.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2012, 04:36:04 pm »
Lanchester's Law
The more I know

I think this forum has been one of the most educational I've ever been on (/unrelatednote)
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Offline Diazo

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2012, 07:40:55 pm »
Okay, this seems to have turned into an anti-blobbing thread at the moment.

Now, one thing to consider is how big is the blob?

As you approach late game, I find that turrets are not sufficient on defense and start to split my fleet up for defensive purposes.

Now, this is technically not 'anti-blobbing', but it is making my blob smaller by reducing the size of my offensive fleet.

In other words, a simpler map means a larger part of your fleet can remain on the offense while a more complex map reduces the size of your fleet that you take into AI systems. (In my playstyle, for what that makes this worth.)

The super-guardian would be a great idea on the simpler map as that would give the AI a nice mini-sledge hammer to use against your stronger defensive post.

That same super-guardian on a more complex map that is facing a smaller offensive fleet would be a much tougher challenge.

I'm not saying more powerful guardians are wrong, but I already fear zombie and vampire guardians enough I give my blob priority orders to kill those when they appear.

Suppose I should actually check the mantis out.

D.

edit: I think the big thing is how AI ships in guard mode behave. What if when a guard post was freed, and did not like the firepower difference, rather then charging your fleet anyway or being released onto threat, they retreated to that system's command station?

Or when the firepower threshold is hit and all ships in the system are released, rather then having them charge your fleet, they all retreat to the AI's command station?

Or when 2x the firepower threshold is hit, they try to retreat to an adjacent AI world and then get released onto threat?

Or chances of different things happening, right now it is the same because the AI reacts the same, always. Even if it only had one other mechanic it used 10% of the time, that would force you to at least consider the fact it might do something different.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 07:59:52 pm by Diazo »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Somewhat silly question for old timers..
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2012, 08:56:55 pm »
I posted the idea to give freed more possible actions: 9465: Give Freed AI Ships more possible actions