Author Topic: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior  (Read 1880 times)

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« on: November 23, 2012, 08:00:42 pm »
I've noticed these kinds of things a lot, and I was wondering if you could explain to me what's happening Keith.

Sometimes one of my planets will be under massive attack and they'll just sit at my Homeworld as if nothing is happening.

In the save I'm attaching, one of my planets gets hit with a wave of about 700 guys, including 5 Spire Frigates and several Starships, and my Enclave ships just sit there doing nothing.  Ironically, as the wave begins they release their entire force of ships on my Homeworld...

It has to be a bug or something.  As soon as the save starts watch how they release their force even though there is no enemy threat on my Homeworld, then also watch how they just sit there and do nothing.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2012, 09:22:42 am »
If you think something's odd with their logic, please turn on advanced logging and include the related log with the report.  The log itself may be helpful to you in figuring out what's going on, but mainly it helps me see what it was doing.  I'll take a look at the save if I have time today :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2012, 09:59:46 am »
Ok, loaded up the save and ran it for a while (maybe 30 seconds) until it generated a Fleet Logic check log entry, and here's why it won't help on Duzor:

Code: [Select]
Rejecting excessive enemy-firepower planet Duzor, math breakdown:
planet.AIMilitaryFirepowerForPurposesOfHumanFriendlyMinorFactionSim:627102
aiFirepowerMustBeThisHighToCountAsBlockingPlanet:7791
( planet.HumanMilitaryFirepowerSim / 2 ):91874
aiFirepowerMustBeThisLowToBeAttackable:38958

In other words, even adding in what you have on that planet, it's barely more than 1/5th the allied firepower that the enclaves would consider a fight that's safe enough to get involved in.  Granted, they'd have more firepower of their own if they hadn't just dumped their squadrons on the homeworld (which they appear to have already done before the save was made, or else they did it in the very first instants of the simulation after I loaded it), I'm still trying to figure out what's going on with that.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2012, 10:20:41 am »
Ok, fixed the bug where they'd release squadrons right after loading a game in some cases, thanks for the report on that.

That roughly doubles their available firepower, but the end result of the logic considering helping you on Duzor is still "not gonna do it, wouldn't be prudent" ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2012, 10:30:32 am »
Okay, I understand it a little better now.

By the way, is there a cap on their firepower, or can they just keep building units til kingdom come?  (It would probably never happen, but I'm just curious)
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2012, 11:27:58 am »
By the way, is there a cap on their firepower, or can they just keep building units til kingdom come?  (It would probably never happen, but I'm just curious)
If you  mean a cap on the size of their internal squadrons, yes, they can only hold so much.

If you mean a cap on the number of allied enclaves in existence at once, no, there's no cap on that.  Even on intensity 10, though, it'd take the better part of 10 hours to build up 100 of them, iirc.  Them actually deploying full squadrons might murder CPUs, not sure ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2012, 12:55:12 pm »
I guess that's okay behavior, really?  I mean, it would be nice if they helped out in desperate-defense situations when the last barrier to your homeworld is under attack, but I reckon it's not terrible if they don't --- if that falls you're going to want a reserve on your homeworld.  Whereas if they fling themselves into a world where you're giving up and get themselves killed that would be a lot more frustrating.

I reckon though that they ought to be willing to join close-to-even fights where they might swing the balance or might die --- a cowardly ally feels pretty useless.  Anyway I have not yet seen much of them and I don't have any sense of how that balance is currently struck.

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2012, 01:19:28 pm »
I can see why they wouldn't want to help too much in offensive situations (I think the logic is that they won't come to help you attack unless your force is at least twice the power of the AIs).  However, there's also the irony of, if your force is twice the size of theirs, why would you need help? :P

On defense I can also see the self-preservation bit coming into play.  Still, it's odd that if Enclaves are so concerned about self-preservation, they'll still run through enemy-controlled planets to get to their destination when they could pass through allied planets to get there as well.

Either way, I think the Enclave changes are fantastic and I've still got a lot of experimenting to do with them before I come to any reasonable conclusion about it.

Assuming that Roaming Enclaves are supposed to be as much of a threat as they are a boon, my initial impression is that the allied Enclaves are much smarter, and therefore last much longer than the enemy Enclaves, which pretty much just spawn and die within a few seconds.  Therefore, the player gets a huge surplus of powerful allied Enclaves, which ironically can be used to defend against the enemy Enclaves, eventually making the "threat" portion of the Roaming Enclaves Faction a non-issue.

I could see several ways of addressing this, but like I said, there's still testing to be done.  Despite these minor flaws, I still love it.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 01:21:03 pm by Wingflier »
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2012, 02:30:43 pm »
If I am reading it right, the cutoff to help or not help is when the AI out firepowers the human 2:1, instead of the other way around. So that is somewhat more reasonable.


It would be cool if the fleeting logic got "back ported" to the enemy enclaves.
I still think the fleeting behaviour (which is distinct from the pseudo-chat-control) would be good to give to the human resistance fighters too.

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2012, 03:12:13 pm »
If I am reading it right, the cutoff to help or not help is when the AI out firepowers the human 2:1, instead of the other way around. So that is somewhat more reasonable.


It would be cool if the fleeting logic got "back ported" to the enemy enclaves.
I still think the fleeting behaviour (which is distinct from the pseudo-chat-control) would be good to give to the human resistance fighters too.
Ah, I misread that.

Still, even at 2:1 odds, the AI is really no match for the player, because the player is moving his blob around en force, while the AI is just sending his guys piecemeal into the player so that they can die one by one.  It's only at 3:1 or 4:1 odds that I personally feel I really need the Enclave's assistance.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2012, 03:43:40 pm »
However, there's also the irony of, if your force is twice the size of theirs, why would you need help? :P
To clarify, the enclaves will intervene even if your firepower is very small (or zero, in some cases) if their firepower is sufficient compared to the AI stuff on the planet.

But in general they're pretty conservative because they have no way to replace an enclave; more come with time but if they take losses at that rate they never grow in number, etc.

Quote
Still, it's odd that if Enclaves are so concerned about self-preservation, they'll still run through enemy-controlled planets to get to their destination when they could pass through allied planets to get there as well.
They do a-star pathing based on the amount of AI firepower on the respective planets (preferring the lower values, obviously), with a slight preference for the shorter paths.  But the firepower valuation in that case is pretty coarse so that anything under about a tenth of the enclave fleet's power is considered zero, etc.  Otherwise the resulting paths can get pretty strange.

And yea, the enemy enclaves don't have much on the allied ones anymore so this is basically a primarily-helps-the-player faction for now.  I'll probably even it up a bit in the future but for now that seems ok.  It was only-hurts-the-player for rather a while ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline relmz32

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 08:08:41 pm »
It looks to me like the roaming enclaves is the light side to the hybrid faction.
A programmer had a problem. She thought to herself, "I know, I'll solve it with threads!". has Now problems. two she.

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Weird/inexplicable allied Enclave behavior
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 11:08:08 pm »
Quote
They do a-star pathing based on the amount of AI firepower on the respective planets (preferring the lower values, obviously), with a slight preference for the shorter paths.  But the firepower valuation in that case is pretty coarse so that anything under about a tenth of the enclave fleet's power is considered zero, etc.  Otherwise the resulting paths can get pretty strange.
You're going to have to explain to me why my 8 Enclaves decided to go through Yaou to their deaths in this save, which is full of Gravity Guardians and other dangerous enemies, when there were 3 completely clear planets all the way back to the Homeworld.  In fact, I'm pretty sure they took the safer route to come and help me in the first place, they just decided to go back through the gauntlet, i.e. an MKIII planet I've never visited; ironically their decision to go back the hard way was AFTER they had released their entire payload onto a planet that was already clear to begin with.  They all die in the end.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."