Author Topic: Fallen Spire Balance  (Read 4254 times)

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Fallen Spire Balance
« on: November 22, 2010, 06:35:21 pm »
Had some thoughts while shoveling snow this morning. I wrote up a thread on them, but I accidentally killed it, so here's the short version.  8)

1.)  Fallen Spire waves in many ways trivialize the actual waves once they start. Even with one Spire Hub, an assemblage of Core ships and Golems is in many ways a greater challenge than what you get from the AI normally.  This is especially the case since its not that difficult to get the first Hub while remaining under Tech II, particularly on lower difficulties.

2.) The first couple of Spire 'episodes' - everything up to the establishment of the Refugee post - is essentially 'free' outside the initial chase-ships. After the refugee post is built you have no further problems from the AI, Spire-wise.  But you still get the powerful beam cannon and the 4 Spire Frigates, which

3.) Are arguably overpowered.  They have twice the base firepower of any other Spire ship for shipcap, and the modules dont usually make up for it; Frigates are rarely casualties with 5 million hp. More to the point, though, they offer the same kill-anything/everything firepower of larger spire ships and do it at twice the range.  In many ways your greatest incentive for building up Spire forces is simply to get more frigates rather than more advanced ships.  This is particularly the case since they make the best Golem assassins.

There's also a concern in terms of knowledge balance, since I understand the largest Spire ships require knowledge to unlock on top of requiring Turret unlocks to make them more effective.  (I've only made it up to Cruiser.)

Once I've thought some more on these points ill post something up to Mantis. 

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 06:48:02 pm »
1.)  Fallen Spire waves in many ways trivialize the actual waves once they start.
Yes, this is to some extent normal, as the AI takes the Spire much more seriously than it takes you.  One thing about the progression is that you need to take a lot of territory to really follow it through, which tends to lead to higher AIP and thus wave-tech-level, making them (hopefully) somewhat less trivial.  But yea, once you deal with your first gang-of-golems you won't look at the normal waves the same way ;)

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2.) The first couple of Spire 'episodes' - everything up to the establishment of the Refugee post - is essentially 'free' outside the initial chase-ships. After the refugee post is built you have no further problems from the AI, Spire-wise.  But you still get the powerful beam cannon and the 4 Spire Frigates
Right, those are basically "free" rewards for putting up with the hassle up to that point.  That's the idea.
 
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3.) Are arguably overpowered.
I've been thinking about cutting the Spire Frigate ship cap to 2 per structure instead of 4, for these very reasons.  I haven't done this yet as it seems the progression's difficulty level is hard enough that you need every ultra-powerful beam cannon you can get ;)

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There's also a concern in terms of knowledge balance, since I understand the largest Spire ships require knowledge to unlock on top of requiring Turret unlocks to make them more effective.  (I've only made it up to Cruiser.)
You have to take a lot of territory to plant 5 cities, and if you need to take more to research the Spire capital ships (and their upgrades), then that is also intentional.
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Offline orzelek

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 06:55:53 pm »
Pretty please take back that comment about Spire frigs not dying... ;)

Believe me they do die.. sometimes you may not notice when and what killed few of them later.

It can be difficult to retreat them when damaged at largest waves :D

Also that pulse cannon is very micro intensive which I'm not sure is a positive attribute.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 07:09:51 pm »
frigates die often enough, heavy isnt as bad as it used to be, but still things manage to kill it.
Helps if the ai has zelec bombers unlocked, or raiders, or antiarmor

pulse cannon seems to work best when the ships are stationary, other than that not too much micro
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Offline Kemeno

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 07:22:08 pm »
I think that the campaign does a great job of making the AI seem like it takes the spire a lot more seriously than it takes you (and honestly, by the end of the spire plotline, my fleet ships seem completely puny compared to the grand spire battlefleet I've built up).

The four spire beam frigates you get just for taking the outpost are really good, I agree. Maybe there should be a penalty for using them offensively? For example, by giving the AI a 2x reinforce bonus (non-stacking) on any AI planet with spire presence. The old increment-special-wave-counter-if-spire-ships-present thing made them rather useless for offence, since the special waves would come in really fast, but this would make using the spire ships in your offensive group a bit more of a decision - if you choose to stop here. (If you get all the way to chapter 8, you're basically playing a whole different game, and you're hardly going to notice that anyways.) Also, the frigates seem really durable early on, but once you progress down the quest line a bit they definitely seem a *lot* more fragile.

I do think that the HBC's on the bigger spire ships feel a bit awkward to use, since their range is so short. Maybe they should get a small damage nerf but lock-on target? That would also reduce the micro you need to use them properly, while still giving them a different feel from the frigates.

Either way, like Lance said, beam cannons are definitely most effective if both you and your target are stationary. This makes them a pain to use if your enemy is beelining across your system - positioning can make a big difference in these cases. Grav turrets can be helpful, though.

Offline orzelek

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2010, 07:47:54 pm »
pulse cannon seems to work best when the ships are stationary, other than that not too much micro

There are two drawbacks:
- if your ships are moving and they stop collision will kick in and beams will move a bit off the targets
- if enemy is moving... you need to get your ships either on their course or behind them to do some serious damage not only touch them (unless you slow enemy down severely)

This gets a bit tricky for larger spire ships due to their short range - frigs are actually quite well behaved in that regard if you position them correctly or order them to chase enemy.

I may tried to aim with them to well - but with large hp of targets any damage helps.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 07:50:21 pm »
the frigs are actually kinda like longranged suppression weapons - if you place them somewhere tangent to the hostile ship's path, they will suppress that area indefinately.

they neednt be moving unless its a large target, but most of the time a large target is large enough to take almost full damage

what is most important is that you bring munitions boosters (spire/zenith stars) with your cruiser/destroyer fleet. Nothing is quite as useful as 2.3x boosted laser cannons.

edit to keith - is the perma-cloaked hub bit supposed to be the answer for using spire citys defensively? (your still making defensive platforms, right? :p)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 07:53:01 pm by Lancefighter »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2010, 09:54:52 am »
On Spire Frigates: yea, they die plenty quick when the fighting gets heavy.  And I don't think the ones you get "free" with the refugee outpost need any additional cost, you've paid that already.  Though I may decrease the cap-per-structure from4 to 2 (maybe 3?), like I said.

On the Photon Bombardment Cannons:

Yes, their effectiveness varies widely with positioning, etc.  That's part of what makes them different from the human heavy-beam-cannons.  The other part is the blatantly absurd dps.  A Spire Dreadnought's main cannon, over its full firing-and-reloading cycle (10 seconds), has a dps of 1.2 MILLION.  It does the full 12 million in roughly 2 seconds (the firing time, then reloads for 8 seconds).  For reference, an AI-controled Armored Golem has 25 million hitpoints.

If I change the PBC's to track with their primary target, I'll have to massively nerf that dps down much closer to the human HBC levels (a mkIV does a total of 2 million every 4 seconds, or 0.5M dps, and it is also very difficult to get full-damage-application due to the wide fan).

The main difficulty I see with the current implementation is that it is possible for a player to micro to get much better performance, and thus some players will feel compelled to do so regardless of need, and will have less overall fun because they're microing.  It's supposed to be a "yes, they miss a lot, just let them, you'll still come out ahead" thing.

Of course, with how excruciatingly hard the event-attacks have been, players have been forced to be highly creative (I've actually been really impressed with how well y'all have done), and naturally have felt the need to exploit the PBC's micro-ability to the max, which isn't really very fun.  We're working on getting the difficulty down to the point where that's just not needed.  Has anyone had a chance to see if 4.039 is any better than 4.038 (and previous) in that regard, by the way?

And I can increase the range of the higher-than-frigate main cannons, I just have to keep it below the smallest range of the weapon modules they can mount or they won't properly close the range to use all their weapons.  I'm planning to add some new modules soon, it's just a higher priority to address stuff like fallen-spire balance, massive-waves-of-zelec-bombers, crash bugs (not many of those left, it seems), etc.

On the Spire defense platforms:

Yes, I was hoping that by making the city hubs basically indestructible you'd be far more willing to take advantage of their defensive capacity.  You see, I really like the whole multiple-nodes-of-multiple-modules-each starbase thing, and I want you to want to use it ;)

So I'd like to avoid shifting that usage to the defensive platform thing since it's basically either a spire-turret or spire-fortress type thing (though I'm not saying the latter isn't coming ;) ).

At this stage, why do you want the platforms?  Because you don't want your cities in a fight?  Because you can't position the cities where you need your defense points?  Or because you simply need extra firepower, over and above what the capital ships and city defenses can give you?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2010, 09:58:58 am »
(and honestly, by the end of the spire plotline, my fleet ships seem completely puny compared to the grand spire battlefleet I've built up).
Yea, by the end when you have a dreadnought and 2-3 battleships (or more, if you build more cities), plus all the other trimmings... that's just a ton of firepower.  But it's my hope that when we're done with this you'll still have a lot of use for the fleet ships, at least to keep swarms of mkIV-V bombers off your capital ships ;)

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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2010, 10:07:33 am »
(and honestly, by the end of the spire plotline, my fleet ships seem completely puny compared to the grand spire battlefleet I've built up).
Yea, by the end when you have a dreadnought and 2-3 battleships (or more, if you build more cities), plus all the other trimmings... that's just a ton of firepower.  But it's my hope that when we're done with this you'll still have a lot of use for the fleet ships, at least to keep swarms of mkIV-V bombers off your capital ships ;)

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If you get all the way to chapter 8, you're basically playing a whole different game
Someone noticed, yay! ;)

What I like about the plot is that is is actually different game when you activate it. It goes form skirmish war to a full blown war, and has the escalation in between :)
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2010, 12:21:35 pm »
I want defensive platforms because the cities really arent that strong compared to the fleet...

spire cities have what, 4 modules of defense (two reactors and two hab centers), each with 6 defensive modules and a ff. A cruiser has 8 defensive modules and a forcefield, plus their main gun (the cruiser's front 6 guns equal that of a hab/reactor... let alone once you add munitions boosting, but both can be boosted)

more importantly, the 5 cruisers i currently have can move. If i need to move around defenses, a city doesnt let me place another city for two jumps.

Then, add the destroyers, the frigates, and if your at 5 hubs, the bigger stuff.

A city simply isnt any firepower at all comparatively.
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Offline orzelek

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2010, 12:42:44 pm »
For city to be used defensively it would need special set of "larger" versions of ship mounted modules.

It would be sensible also - stationary large structure should have much more powerful weapon mounts.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2010, 12:56:51 pm »
Yea, I'm thinking something like that.  The forcefield modules for the cities are much larger versions of those mounted on the capital ships, for one.

I could also give the city nodes their own main cannons, like the capital ships.
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2010, 01:02:52 pm »
Yea, I'm thinking something like that.  The forcefield modules for the cities are much larger versions of those mounted on the capital ships, for one.

I could also give the city nodes their own main cannons, like the capital ships.

Does the city force fields reduce the damage form the guns it also mounts? (same question on the spire ships them self, but there I guess they do not)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Fallen Spire Balance
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2010, 01:07:08 pm »
No, they shouldn't apply the damage debuff, since they don't actually prevent movement.
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