Did you guys make it harder to activate golems?

[TechSY730]

I'm happy to reduce golem m+c costs to some degree to compensate for the repair fix (though probably not to the point that they're as cheap as they were), and/or having the base repair cost be 1/2 construction cost across the board, but we're not going back to different units having different m+c/% efficiencies on repair

Wait, we are paying full construction costs for repair (prorated for HP remaining of course)? No wonder why things seem so expensive right now.

Yea, bringing the base repair multiplier to .5 and reducing golem costs seems reasonable. It will still be more expensive to repair than before, but this change would bring it down to a more reasonable level.

[Kahuna]

I'm happy to reduce golem m+c costs to some degree to compensate for the repair fix (though probably not to the point that they're as cheap as they were), and/or having the base repair cost be 1/2 construction cost across the board, but we're not going back to different units having different m+c/% efficiencies on repair

Wait, we are paying full construction costs for repair (prorated for HP remaining of course)? No wonder why things seem so expensive right now.

*insert dramatic music here* Good point!

[Hearteater]

I thought repair costs were 25%, and an "unforeseen interaction" caused the repair cost to be further divided by the repair speed of the engineer assisting it.  Since even an Engineer I has a x6 repair rate, I believe we were paying something like 4% or something.

[keith.lamothe]

I thought repair costs were 25%, and an "unforeseen interaction" caused the repair cost to be further divided by the repair speed of the engineer assisting it.  Since even an Engineer I has a x6 repair rate, I believe we were paying something like 4% or something.

The only thing I changed was to multiply the cost as well as the health-gain of a repair tick by the unit's repair-boost; so if the repair cost was somehow 25%, it would still be working from that "base".

But I think the "base" has been 100% for as long as I've been here.

[TechSY730]

Oh, and more semi-related self-promotion, I think that golems should self damage on firing, rather than just being powered on, which would give the same intended balance effect (using them costs), but without the fiddly micro.

[Diazo]

I thought repair costs were 25%, and an "unforeseen interaction" caused the repair cost to be further divided by the repair speed of the engineer assisting it.  Since even an Engineer I has a x6 repair rate, I believe we were paying something like 4% or something.

The only thing I changed was to multiply the cost as well as the health-gain of a repair tick by the unit's repair-boost; so if the repair cost was somehow 25%, it would still be working from that "base".

But I think the "base" has been 100% for as long as I've been here.

Back when I did my tests on the repairs that proved the efficiency differences between Marks, at the time a ship with Repair Rate 1 repaired a ship from 0 to 100% at 1/4 the cost of constructing it.

Let's see if I can confirm this for the most recent patch.

D.

edit: Laptop can't handle the game, can not confirm at the moment.

[Draco18s]

The only thing I changed was to multiply the cost as well as the health-gain of a repair tick by the unit's repair-boost

Whoah!  That drastically alters the game's economy.  It used to be highly beneficial to unlock higher level engineers because the absolute cost of construction/repair was lowered (with some fiddly diminishing returns math for an increased number of engineers).

Now higher mark engineers is a detriment, as they'll drain resources faster than their prior-mark cousins.  This is BAD because resources are gained at a set rate, and when you're tapped out, it doesn't matter if it's a Mark 1 engineer or a Mark 3: that unit isn't getting repaired any faster; it simply happens in larger chunks less often.

[chemical_art]

I will admit that aside from MK III engineers teleporting I see little reason to upgrade engineers.

Probably will not spend K on them again. There is little reason to.

(as a side note, if they are ever up for a "buff this unit" vote, I will vote for engineers every time now)

[TechSY730]

The only thing I changed was to multiply the cost as well as the health-gain of a repair tick by the unit's repair-boost

Whoah!  That drastically alters the game's economy.  It used to be highly beneficial to unlock higher level engineers because the absolute cost of construction/repair was lowered (with some fiddly diminishing returns math for an increased number of engineers).

Now higher mark engineers is a detriment, as they'll drain resources faster than their prior-mark cousins.  This is BAD because resources are gained at a set rate, and when you're tapped out, it doesn't matter if it's a Mark 1 engineer or a Mark 3: that unit isn't getting repaired any faster; it simply happens in larger chunks less often.

Actually, only repair was affected by this oversight. You always paid full price for construction. Consequently, higher marks help you get stuff done faster, which is sometimes useful.
Also, if the cost of repairing your fleet is significantly less than how much you had to begin with, then you can repair much faster, even though you now pay the same amount. EDIT: Granted, if you find yourself short on resources often, then yea, the worse case scenario you described will happen.

Again, it is one of those 6 one way, half a dozen the other situations.

[MaxAstro]

I am in favor of both golems being cheaper to repair (seriously.  800k m/c.  Less than half a second.) and only taking damage when they fire, although that may require reworking of the hive golem (maybe takes damage when it launches based on the number of wasps launched?).

As it is now, the cost to keep a golem powered on is almost prohibitively expensive, even if it's just sitting there doing nothing.

[Draco18s]

Actually, only repair was affected by this oversight. You always paid full price for construction. Consequently, higher marks help you get stuff done faster, which is sometimes useful.

The "not cheaper" (and also "not faster") was a problem the mobile repair platform had in the past.

Mk2/3 engineers just dropped in usefulness to me down below that of a pre-buff space plane.

[TechSY730]

Actually, only repair was affected by this oversight. You always paid full price for construction. Consequently, higher marks help you get stuff done faster, which is sometimes useful.

The "not cheaper" (and also "not faster") was a problem the mobile repair platform had in the past.

Mk2/3 engineers just dropped in usefulness to me down below that of a pre-buff space plane.

I will still use them, or at least Mk. IIs. Simply having more engineers to work with alone is worth it to me (I use a very engineer heavy strategy, where I actually do start running into issues with engineer caps). That, and being able to speed up construction of things like starships is also very worthwhile to me. Again, different play-styles and all that.


I would agree though that there needs to be some new perk the Mk. II (and would probably be inherited by Mk. IIIs) get, to make up for their nerf that fixing this oversight lead to. Mk. IIIs already get cloaking and teleporting, which can be very useful. Mk. IIs need something as well now.

[Diazo]

Just ran a quick test.

Pretty sure repair is still 25% the costs of construction.

Will post numbers tomorrow.

D.

[Diazo]

Okay, here's how I currently understand repair to work. (Patch 5.050)

Construction cost is as listed in the ship description.

Repair Cost is 25% as listed, including Repair Time being 25% also.

The repair time is why repair is currently destroying economies.

Because repair time is also 25%, while repair is underway the costs per second are exactly the same during construction as during repair.

Except the rates are not the same on engineers, a Mark I engineer has Construction Rate 1, Repair Rate 6 so a Mark I engineer consumes six times more resources per second when repairing then when building the exact same unit.

Only showing metal to keep things simple but crystal works the same way.

Assuming an engineer could build a Light Starship without requiring a starship constructor:

Mark I Engineer building a light starship: 40,000 Metal Total over 05:34 for 120 metal/second. (Construction rate 1)

Mark I engineer repairing a light starship from 0 to 100% health: 10,000 Metal Total over 14 seconds for 714 metal per second (Repair Rate 6)

This just gets more extreme with higher Mark engineers. A mark III engineer at repair rate 12 would be:

Mark III Engineer building a light starship: 40,000 Metal Total over 01:51 for 360 metal/second. (Construction rate 3)

Mark III engineer repairing a light starship from 0 to 100% health: 10,000 Metal Total over 7 seconds for 1,428 metal per second (Repair Rate 12)

Effectively, the Repair Rate of a unit is the multiplier for how much more expensive things are to repair (both absolutely and per second) so the Mark I engineer consumes six time more resources to repair and the Mark III engineer consumes twelve times more resources to repair now.

A single Mark III engineer repairing an Armored golem now costs 8,333 metal and crystal per second. Let's not even talk about a swarm of engineers now.

D.

[Draco18s]

Mark III engineer repairing a light starship from 0 to 100% health: 10,000 Metal Total over 7 seconds for 1,428 metal per second (Repair Rate 12)

Talk about an economy crasher.