Author Topic: Core Shield Generators- time sink  (Read 16910 times)

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2010, 04:58:18 pm »
multi home-world starts... I never liked that at all, it make everything so unbalanced, like the old raid starship steam roll etc.

IMO, and this is just imo(!), I'd take out multi home-world starts... and leave that area to multi player alone ;)
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Offline wyvern83

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2010, 05:04:02 pm »
Yeah, it's very unfortunate. We are in a consumer situation. If someone does not want to participate or further a product, that's well within the realm of market realities. And the consumer is well within their rights to say, if the product is broken, they will not purchase/participate/assist/whatever it. That's not terrorism. I was actually planning to leave it at my first post without any additional comments, until the name-calling started. The lack of respect concerns me, and so I returned my censure.

I agree, but it's hard to talk about respect when you are not showing respect in return. I think you have valid things to say but I don't want some of your more over-the-top responses I've seen here to stand between us and a better product. I think we can all agree that working together will be the best for everyone.

Some version of this mechanic will undoubtedly make it in but I'd rather have had a hand in its creation than none at all.

Offline snrub_guy

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2010, 05:14:44 pm »
I'm just chiming in to say that I haven't played it yet, (I'm about to go try it out), but think it sounds like an interesting idea. Possibly some tweaking is required, but I haven't got a problem with it on principle, and will leave some more feedback once I've play tested. Assuming I don't get roflstomped in the first hour or two like I have a tendency to do at the moment.

I also think people need to calm the flip down. One of the things I like about these forums is how damn friendly everyone usually is with each other. Let's not change that just because of an untested new feature in a Beta release. If nothing else, it might put off new members.

TheMachineIsSentient

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2010, 05:16:11 pm »
Yeah, it's very unfortunate. We are in a consumer situation. If someone does not want to participate or further a product, that's well within the realm of market realities. And the consumer is well within their rights to say, if the product is broken, they will not purchase/participate/assist/whatever it. That's not terrorism. I was actually planning to leave it at my first post without any additional comments, until the name-calling started. The lack of respect concerns me, and so I returned my censure.

I agree, but it's hard to talk about respect when you are not showing respect in return. I think you have valid things to say but I don't want some of your more over-the-top responses I've seen here to stand between us and a better product. I think we can all agree that working together will be the best for everyone.

Some version of this mechanic will undoubtedly make it in but I'd rather have had a hand in its creation than none at all.

Please point out any responses that you disagree with with quotations. Like I said, if they are going to begin name-calling, I am more than capable of returning it. They are completely unprofessional in how they are receiving criticism of this mechanic. Instead of taking the original post personally, they could have let it go on with people discussing. This would have been better then planting their foot in the sand, saying how they never made any mistakes in the past, and then beginning with ad hominem attacks on people that disagree with them. That's not okay.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2010, 05:21:15 pm »
Machine, I sent you a pm in hopes that we can resolve the personal side of this; of course we can also handle that publicly but I find that it greatly complicates things.  Just noting that here since the pm feature can be a bit finicky about actually telling people about new ones, etc.
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2010, 05:21:58 pm »
The rampant name-calling by both you and Chris is patently unacceptable and unprofessional. Your reply, which goes against your own profanity rules, and referring to myself and perhaps hitman as "terrorists," is also wholly unacceptable. I don't feel bad for you. If you want to play the victim, carry on, but it looks to me like there is some consensus that this idea stinks. As much as you want to claim that every decision was perfect at the time you made it, maybe a little humility would be good for both of you. But I know that's impossible, given both of your personalities.

The analogue may be a bit unfortunate, but you seem to be the most polarized person posting in this thread. x4000 never said he wasn't willing to talk about the new idea but making ultimatums is hardly the healthy customer service relationship x4000 and keith are looking for or deserve for that matter.

It's a beta for a reason. As you pointed out a lot of us agree that this idea could possibly use some reworking, myself included. Be part of the tester feedback cycle; I know you want your feedback to matter, your words will mean more backed by actual game-play experience with the new Core Shields than without it.

Yeah, it's very unfortunate. We are in a consumer situation. If someone does not want to participate or further a product, that's well within the realm of market realities. And the consumer is well within their rights to say, if the product is broken, they will not purchase/participate/assist/whatever it. That's not terrorism. I was actually planning to leave it at my first post without any additional comments, until the name-calling started. The lack of respect concerns me, and so I returned my censure.

If someone behaves a way you do not like, do you really think there is any benefit to return the favor? I mean, if you want to get a point across, do it with a good tone regardless of what faces you. "Sinking to their level" (not implying anything here!!!), so to speak, never solved anything. Capturing your tone in an online post can be difficult, and sometimes a very direct point can come across (in the minds of those reading) as an "attack", whether it was meant to do so or not.

As it is also important (again) that the current beta is in no way official at all... And no one can blame you for wanting to play the latest official release (as I am sure many do).

Personally I am not too happy about the idea of forced planets to capture as such, but I do want to test a game with it to see how it actually works first. It might turn out to be ok, or even better. I am still testing it.

I also understand Chris idea of it, having AI War as a simple game you can steam roll with nigh nothing captured is kind of worrying, but I do not know the AI level that was involved in those instances, but it is doable I think, at least form what I have seen in my games.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 05:24:55 pm by Ozymandiaz »
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Offline ShadowOTE

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2010, 05:22:57 pm »
Machine, I think you're missing the point people have been trying to make. Yes, there were some unprofessional comments on their part. However, these were in response to some rather rudely phrased remarks on your part. You can't take the moral high ground and say they responded unprofessionally when your original post was rude as well. There's blame to share here, and the only thing this argument is doing is distracting from the issue at hand. Can we get back to constructive criticism now?

Offline Winter Born

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2010, 05:23:18 pm »
Looking back at Chris's posts and comments I get the idea that:

1) he wants to stop "rushing" the AI homeworlds with a low AIP making the endgame too easy

2) force a minimum # of planets to be taken (8-10) - @ 20 AIP per planet 160-200 AIP guaranteed

3) prevent the required minimum from being a turtle dream of being all together in a corner - hence the secondary network requirement.

It seems one of the main complaints is the loss of freedom of choice of planets to cap.

for me:
ARS ok I can cap and toss the planet
For the rest (Adv Factories/Fabs) I am stuck with them where they are and so most of the time I don't go out of my way to cap them as I have to hold them then micro-shepherd their output to the front lines -- bleh



An alternative would be:
The impregnable FF on the AI homeworld GP's go away after your "planet cap score" reaches or exceeds the highest AI dificulty in your game (If playing with a 4 and 5 AI then 5, if a 9 and 10 then 10, etc)
cap any bloody planet you want
Planets adjacent to your starting planet count 1/4 of a point each  {disincentive to turtle)
Planets not adjacent to any other friendly planet 1 point
Planets adjacent to another friendly not your home planet 1/2 point

for example a chain might look like this

HW - 1/4 - 1/2 - 1/2 - neutral or hostile - 1 - neutral or hostile - neutral or hostile - 1/2 - 1/2 - neutral or hostile

3 1/4 points earned 5 planets capped if playing AI7s then another 3 3/4 points required to open the gates so to speak.


Any way just an idea

Offline Kemeno

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2010, 05:26:09 pm »
First: A disclaimer. I have not played a game with the core shield generators. I don't think they'd effect my play style much - though I don't always get all the ARS's before I hit the first homeworld. But, I can understand the feeling of getting 'roped into' playing a certain way, which seems to be the perception around here.

Here's an alternate mechanic that I *think* accomplishes much the same thing as the core shield generators, but keeps player options there.

Instead of forcing the player to destroy shield generators, make it so that the AI homeworlds cannot be attacked until the AIP reaches a certain level - maybe 200-500 or whatever. You have the freedom to do whatever you want to get the AIP up to that level (just throw some nukes around if you want), but if you try to go onto an AI homeworld before the AIP hits that level, the AI either A: launches *really* nasty waves at you (maybe these are special waves, or maybe the AI just gets some MASSIVE but temporary effective AIP boost until you get off it's homeworlds) or B: has shields so you just can't hit the homeworlds period. An in-game justification for the former method is easy: the AI essentially panics because it thought it'd reduced the humans to nothing, but suddenly they're on its homeworld? Better send in the special forces to quell the rebellion... but after the AIP hits a certain point, the AI perceieves the human threat as 'nominal' so it doesn't do this. Or maybe the AI home planets are invulnerable because they have a delicate home shield grid reinforced through its gate network or something - increasing AIP usually means you're taking planets, so you're destroying gates. Hopefully someone else can think of something better - the mechanic is the interesting part :-)

Perhaps 2-3 (maybe more) AI "Threat Assessors" are seeded throughout the galaxy, which reduce the AIP needed to assail the homeworlds by some amount - so you still have the freedom to play a relatively low (or lower) AIP game if you want to. But you have to hold these things in order to reduce the AIP needed, and if the AI ambushes you and you lose control of the planet, you could find yourself facing some very nasty AI waves. or in the best case simply be unable to assail the AI homeworld until you recapture it. Oh, and in order to get the AIP reduction, the Threat Assessor needs an active link into the AI warpgate network (needs to be adjacent to an AI planet  with a warpgate), so the planet with it WILL be threatened by the AI.

Optionally, it could be mandatory to take and hold one or more of these threat assessors to hit the homeworld.

Here's an example of how this might work:

You need 500 AIP before you can attack the AI homeworld. Each "Threat Assessor" reduces the AIP needed to hit a homeworld by 50 (could be anywhere between 50-100, depending on the number of these things we have). You want to hit the AI early, but not too early, so you take one of them. You now have to spread your forces out to defend the Threat Assessor while you hit the AI Homeworld.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 05:32:16 pm by Kemeno »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2010, 05:26:36 pm »
Yes, there were some unprofessional comments on their part.
To clarify, I think I'm the one who did that, I don't recall Chris having done so.  The "ass" comment was based on a mistaken impression that Machine would get the humor of what I was trying to say rather than take it personally (seriously, I was laughing, not upset).  It was an unwise attempt, due to the nature of forum communications, and I apologize for that.  Anyway, please continue on the original topic :)
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Offline ShadowOTE

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2010, 05:29:58 pm »
I like that as an alternative. The core generator mechanic sounds great, but it may be something that works better as a menu-enabled option. You could explain the new mechanic as "disrupting the energy available to power the ai home defenses". It achieves the same goal, keeps strategic options open, and could be made fairly intuitive - invulnerability requires lots of spare power, and if you take enough worlds the AI has to shut it down. Should be interesting to see how it affects higher level difficulties though - probably will need some work on balance, but 9 and 10 are SUPPOSED to be hard. The only big problem might be scaling it to fit smaller or bigger maps.

Edit-
The idea of capturing threat assessors is pretty neat too, and would really open up the range of strategic options without breaking play styles. And yeah, I think Keith's right, though sadly the type of humor he was going for doesnt always transfer well online :(
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 05:34:08 pm by ShadowOTE »

Offline wyvern83

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2010, 06:16:56 pm »
@ Machine

I sent you a pm as this thread is getting ungainly and I don't wish to distract from the topic at hand. (let me know if you got it as this site's pm function is abit unusual.)

Offline jordot42

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2010, 06:33:46 pm »
I also think people need to calm the flip down. One of the things I like about these forums is how damn friendly everyone usually is with each other. Let's not change that just because of an untested new feature in a Beta release. If nothing else, it might put off new members.

The bolded is a good point.  I was thinking of buying a certain wargame from another site.  I checked out the forums to get opinions.  I came upon and read some posts about the company charging for what was basically a compilation of every edition of the game ever made.  These cheap tightwads were complaining (quite vehemently at times) about spending a measly $35 to support a game they were rabid about.   The fact that the company updated the game for free for the past 3 or 4 years was irrelevent to these people.

The point is that post soured my opinion of the game straight-away.  I still haven't bought it after all this time.

You can engage in all the namecalling you want, but I suggest it not be done in these public forums.  I'm sure I'm not the only person put-off to trying new games by irate, abusively vocal veterans of said-games posting for all to see.

TheMachineIsSentient

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2010, 06:35:20 pm »
Yes, I agree with everyone toning down the rhetoric and getting back to the discussion. Let's move on.

In other news, the mechanics still stinks,  ;D , so let's keep those ideas coming!

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Core Shield Generators- time sink
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2010, 06:38:28 pm »
I'm sure someone has said something to this affect, but I want to state it anyways.

This is a BETA! New concepts introduced are expected to inelegant and somewhat tacked on. That is one of the whole points of beta testing, starting with a base idea, and then make it elegant and integrated through ideas gotten by play-testing. Yes, the system as it is now feels more like a "band-aid" rather than addressing the real issue, but give it time. From what I have seen in the many beta versions I've play-tested, the devs will figure out how to make it a great mechanic.  :)