Better "randomized" Lobby Setup Scripts

[keith.lamothe]

Was updating the rest of the included lobby-setup-scripts to use the newer, less-insanely-verbose grammar and did a fair bit of test runs in the process and was seeing what it was cranking out.  Not too bad, overall, but I think it wasn't nearly as "smart" as it should have been particularly with spirecraft and golems in terms of weighting what the different values mean there.  Also, while I think randomized factions is something a few players really wanted, I'm not sure if any/many people are actually using it

So I'm not sure if the randomized-minor-faction scripts are going to stay official or go away and just leave the "beginner game" scripts in there since I think those actually works pretty well.

But if folks want randomized-minor-factions, I'm certainly all for improving these.  I think my "algorithmic" approach in those scripts is just too naive.  The best combination of simple and effective I can think of is to just get a fairly big set of concrete faction/plot/whatever combinations that people enjoy playing and are within a similar overall difficulty in folks' opinion (can have different scripts for different overall difficulties), and then have the script pick randomly between those.  And it can certainly use the randomization features to do tweaks on those handpicked combinations to add more variety, if it seems approrpriate.

So, anyone have a faction/plot setup (or more than one) they think would be good to toss into the pot?  It can also specify an allowable set of AI types, difficulties, map types, AI options, etc; I just focus on the factions/plots as being most fun to randomize.  It can even specify a map seed, but that's getting a bit too exact

A couple examples to make clearer what I'm talking about, though I dunno if people would actually find these fun:

set AI 1 to Random Easier, Diff 7.6
set AI 2 to Random Easier, Diff 7.6

add Human Resistance Fighters 4/10
add Human Marauders 4/10
add Zenith Trader 4/10

Randomly pick 1 or 2:
if 1, add Broken Golems Medium
if 2, add Broken Golems Hard 4/10

Randomly pick 1 through 4:
if 1, add Roaming Enclaves 3/10 and Preservation Wardens 3/10
if 2, add Normal Hybrids 4/10
if 3, set AI 1 to Random Harder
if 4, set AI 1 to Diff 8.6

Hide all settings (in the lobby and in the game) for AI Type, AI Difficulty, Factions, and Plots

set AI 1 to Random Easier, Diff 7.6
set AI 2 to Random Easier, Diff 7.6

add Human Colony Rebellions 4/10

Randomly pick 1 or 2:
if 1, add Zenith Dyson Sphere 4/10
if 2, add Zenith Dyson Sphere 9/10 and set AI 1 to Diff 8.6 Mad Bomber

Randomly pick 1 or 2:
if 1, add Broken Golems Hard 4/10 and Normal Hybrids 4/10
if 2, add Broken Golems Hard 1/10 and Normal Hybrids 9/10

Randomly pick 1 through 4:
if 1, add Roaming Enclaves 7/10
if 2, add Preservation Wardens 7/10
if 3, add Roaming Enclaves 4/10 and Preservation Wardens 4/10
if 4, add Preservation Wardens 2/10 set AI 2 to Diff 8.6 and randomly pick 1 through 3:
-- if 1, Spire Hammer
-- if 2, Technologist Homeworlder
-- if 3, Stealth Master

Hide all settings (in the lobby and in the game) for AI Type, AI Difficulty, Factions, and Plots

[Cyborg]

What would be easier is a code that is generated that would set all the options for other people that want to play the same game.

For example, this code would load the map seed, the AI types, minor factions, ship complexity, so on and so forth, and we could just share around these master codes.

It could also be nice if it gave a printout for easier after action reporting. :-)

Edit:

I guess I should have justified this. A master code that sets all the options is easier than messing around with scripting. It's one code that you can copy and paste, and you still get all the abilities of manually tweaking things if you want to.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, a master code would be doable for sharing specific setups, I guess what I'm asking here is: do people want randomized setups?  Is that fun?

I have had a number of people who were looking for chaos/more-threatening-stuff say that the minor factions and such would help more if they didn't know what was coming from the start of the game.  I'm not sure if the addition of the randomization has really helped with that, though.

And the idea is that if someone just wants to play a randomized setup, they don't have to mess around with scripting at all, just pick which script they want run and it does the rest.

[Cyborg]

Oh, a random game? that does sound like fun. I don't see where your original post accomplished that, I thought this was about scripting.

Potential presets that you could use:
neinzul
Leech
hybrids
Zenith ships
stealth
armor
starships
high firepower
AIP modifier fun
Not Even Fair(tm)

[keith.lamothe]

Oh, a random game? that does sound like fun. I don't see where your original post accomplished that, I thought this was about scripting.

Right, the scripts can generate a random number and branch by its value, leading to controllable randomization.  It's in the game in the version you have now if you pick Random Factions 4 (if you want it to include stuff from all expansions, though that script doesn't use Fallen Spire or Beachheads) or Unknown Factions 4 (if you want it to hide what it picks).  Basically it distributes 50 "points" across a variety of factions and plots to try to create a certain level of intensity but without you having to pick (or know) exactly what.

But it's still a bit too random in that one game it generates could be totally brutal and another pathetically easy, so I was going for narrower definitions which contain some randomization rather than it just being really random overall.

Potential presets that you could use:
neinzul
Leech
hybrids
Zenith ships
stealth
armor
starships
high firepower
AIP modifier fun
Not Even Fair(tm)

Yea, those are good general categories

[madcow]

How about an option to pick a number (perhaps the amount chosen could be selected) of random factions, and then automatically assigns 4 points, perhaps with a small probability of +/- 1 point. That would give a randomized option but with more focus. Rather than getting a bunch of factions with 1 or 2 in it.

[keith.lamothe]

and then automatically assigns 4 points, perhaps with a small probability of +/- 1 point. That would give a randomized option but with more focus. Rather than getting a bunch of factions with 1 or 2 in it.

The existing ones tend to generate relatively high values, but yes, there is a tendency to produce several low ones.  Having it always start at 4 and have a small chance of going down or up would be better.

[Wanderer]

Brutal Truth: I won't use the randomizer as it stands.  The ability to randomly pick Cookie Monster is too much for my sanity.

There's only a few subplots as they stand that are game-destroying.  Cookie, Blind Avenger, and Fallen Spire are perfect examples.

My concern with the current scripts as they're implemented is there isn't a balance to the randomness, as you've pointed out.  There's no... range... of difficulty implementation.  There's also not a lot of positive plots that can offset something as destructive as Cookie.  The new ranges for the different plots though lend weight to it.

However, in the end, while a 'random' game might be fun at first, I'm no longer at the point where I just want to see what will happen.  This is a personal thing and six months ago that would have been a blast.  Right now, after the 9-10, Disposable Heroes, and similar games I've played without AAR'ing I'm looking to hit very specific challenges.

Maybe in a year or two I'd have an opinion about how I'd like this to work out and maybe tweaks, but right now, I just don't care, I won't use it.

Which is the point, I guess, of posting.  If there's a lot of favor for this, Keith, go nuts!  It's a fun toy but one I don't see me using.  If there isn't.... there'a a few dozen other things I'd love to see you concentrate on.  One of which, impolitely, is AVWW 1.2 so y'all stay in business so I can be here harassing y'all in a year from now for tweaks!

[keith.lamothe]

Brutal Truth: I won't use the randomizer as it stands.  The ability to randomly pick Cookie Monster is too much for my sanity.

Removing the cookie monster from eligibility from that script would take me maybe 30 seconds   Fallen Spire and Beachheads are already not included; the former because its presence/absence is such a huge difference, the latter because they're frankly too hard for a sane player to include in a challenging setup (very much wanting to use the variability thing to introduce non-instagank variants, etc).  I hadn't thought of the devourer as one of those, but I see how it feels that way on high difficulties.

My concern with the current scripts as they're implemented is there isn't a balance to the randomness, as you've pointed out.  There's no... range... of difficulty implementation.

There's some balance.  It has a total number of points, and the general idea is that X/10 of one hostile faction/plot is roughly equivalent in pain to X/10 for another hostile faction/plot (counting non-variable ones as 4/10).  Not that that's entirely true, but it was kind of the aim.

That said, yea, the actual generated range is pretty wide, which removes the point of "I have a general idea how hard a game I want to play, mix it up and don't tell me so I can be a bit surprised".  I think that can be better achieved with starting from a list of concrete setups that people enjoy with a little randomness thrown in to them, but if the result is still "we don't really want random games, setting it up ourselves is working fine" then there's not a lot of point   I think the beginner scripts are worth keeping, and maybe doing some intermediate/advanced ones wouldn't be a bad idea, but the random/unknown stuff may have just been an idea that sounded more attractive to me than it does to y'all.

One of which, impolitely, is AVWW 1.2 so y'all stay in business so I can be here harassing y'all in a year from now for tweaks!

We're doing pretty well at the moment   But yea, buiding script compilers probably isn't earning us much money

[amethyst]

Just sounding off in favour of random/hidden setup scripts.

I'm not quite at a stage yet where I'd use it regularly, but I intend to write a setup script for myself once I have tried all minor factions and plots and most AI types - at that point, I'll know which of those I enjoy and which I don't, so I can write a tailored script.

I haven't yet tried the scripts currently included with the game, but I'd say the concept as a whole is worth keeping. Having the option to go into a game not knowing exactly what is waiting for you sounds interesting to me.

[_K_]

I just suggest some script that shows off as many features and operations a script can do so the people could easily make their own complex scripts.
I know i will make one once i finish my current game.

[Hearteater]

Too bad LuaInterface isn't as easy to get working with Mono, otherwise you could just let that do the heavy lifting for the scripting.

[zoutzakje]

I haven't used the random minor faction scripts yet, but that's only because I have been occupied with other things. I like randomize options, so I will eventually make use of it once I have some time.
Personally, I would like to see a randomize option for everything eventually. Difficulty (maybe), map style, minor factions, plots, other options, galaxy size, etc
I'd like to just click on a "start game" option and then a new, completely random game fires up. I have played so many hours of AI war already, that I sometimes simply don't know what I want to play with anymore when creating a new game (which is why I sometimes spend hours and hours in the lobby before actually playing). A randomize-all option for example, would help me with this a lot.

[keith.lamothe]

Personally, I would like to see a randomize option for everything eventually. Difficulty (maybe), map style, minor factions, plots, other options, galaxy size, etc

Yea, that's supported now though none of the existing scripts tries to do that.  You probably wouldn't want any games with difficulties lower than 6 or 7, though

[zoutzakje]

probably not lower than 7 no
But a randomize all script for some individual difficulties (7/7,8/8 and 9/9 for example) could work. New players probably won't ever use scripts like that, as I can imagine it would be quite overwhelming. But I think it's great for more experienced players who enjoy randomness in their games.
As for balancing the randomizer... I couldn't care less. Sometimes it can give a very easy game and other times a really hard game yes, but that's the whole point of random. Sometimes the RNG gives us nothing dangerous on enemy homeworlds and other times there are 3 Core Raid Engines and an AI eye. *shrugs* Shit happens. Not knowing what to expect, to discover all the nasty stuff the AI has in store for us and to figure out how to deal with them is what makes this game so much fun for me. Fully randomized scripts (or nearly full, without the difficulty) are great for this.
Though I of course don't know how much people support this, so I'll just see what happens