Balances: Zenith Electric Bombers and Zenith Chameleons

[PokerChen]

I'm almost finished with the fleet-ships now, and have come up to the different zenith bombers that feel somewhat quizzical. I've included the Normal/Normal stats below and also given the Bombard as a comparison.

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WaveName HullType CapHP Armor Speed CapM+C CapEner Range APierce ShipCap BaseDPS Bonus BonusNames MaxDPS

Bombers Polycrystal 15092K 1200 76 156800 9800 4000 0 98 78400 6 Heavy;Artillery;CommandGrade;UltraHeavy;Structural 470400
Zenith Bombards Artillery 9072K 300 44 211200 9600 33000 20000 24 144000 2 Heavy;UltraHeavy;Structural 288000

Z Chameleons CloseCombat 19894K 300 76 137200 4900 7000 0 98 130666 2.4 Heavy;Neutron;UltraHeavy;Structural 313587
Elec Bombers Neutron 9975K 600 50 83600 4750 6400 0 19 120333 3.2 UltraHeavy;Structural;Polycrystal 385060

Missile Frigs Artillery 15092K 300 44 117600 19600 10000 0 98 94080 6 Light;Neutron;Swarmer;UltraLight;Refractive;Composite 564480


The Chameleons, I don't see their cloaking as having any practical function since they de-cloak to move, de-cloak to attack and remain de-cloaked while attacking. Players don't normally "ambush" enemies except in Wormhole situations where they'll get first strike anyway. They are stat-wise fine, but are really just Bomber-clones with fewer and weaker bonuses...

The Electric Bombers in player hands are severely handi-capped - while big, there isn't enough of them (I remember this being previously discussed) such they they don't really contribute their share of an unlock spot. Their counters, Missile Frigates, seem to be able to cream them anywhere and everywhere. Last time I used Electric Bombers, they were, um, too many eggs in one basket and got relegated to reserves (ion cannons being their worst bane).

Any opinions on the current state of these guys? Can/should we make them more interesting?
...like:
Elec Bombers. We could make it out to be half a starship in theory. Triple armour? Add Insta-kill immunity? Add other bonuses (Neutron,EMP-immune)? 
Chameleon. Allow combat-cloaking (muahaha) - i.e. can re-cloak while reloading, and therefore actually make it "unassailable while not moving" (of course, there are tachyon beams to decloak them).  Switch hull-type to Refractive so that it's also weak to Missile Frigates.

...switch one of these to polycrystal so Fortresses wouldn't be such a bore?

[Hearteater]

Chameleons could get 7000 Radar Dampening so at least they can no longer be out ranged.  An optional new mechanic would be to let them "play dead" when killed.  Give them maybe a 25% chance when killed of instead negating the damage entirely, becoming cloaked and paralyzed for 2 seconds.  So they pretend to explode when hit just long enough to get things to re-target away from them, and then rejoin the battle.

Electric Bombers is paralysis immune, which if I recall makes them particularly devastating to Black Widows.  But also notice that they've got a really low M+C and Energy cost, right around half that of Bombers.  Yet they deal 53% more cap DPS and still have 66% of the health of the Bombers.  So as a bonus ship, they bring more DPS, cost less to replace, and have more efficient health/resource than Bombers.  Add in the better range and they actually seem fairly strong.  Their weakest point is their multipliers, and it may be they are bad enough to negate all the other advantages.  A simple 10k armor piercing would be a general DPS boost against everything, which would make them a bit different than Bombers.  A multiplier of x4 at least would put them on par with Bombers in DPS.

[Nodor]

Zenith Chameleons are not things I look forward to seeing in a wave.   I would rather face a wave of bombers. Finding close combat hull killers is a challenge - which makes waves of chameleons a problem given their bonuses and very large HP pool and very high base DPS numbers.

The Zenith bombards I'm dealing with in my current game are doing a fantastic job of alpha striking my transports. 

As for being good ships for the player, yeah not so much.  But right now, they serve the AI well.

One of the things you should look at in these balance passes is performance vs. a triangle ship set.   In theory, I think you should be able to defeat an AI mark 2 wave (250 AIP sized, at Diff 7) of any ship type with a full set of mark 1 triangle ships (properly positioned near the wormhole of course).    Right now, I think the Chameleons win that fight, while the Bombards and bombers do not - ergo, the Chameleons are overpowered.

[laughingman]

I'm coming at this discussion from a slightly different angle, because I'm not much of a min/maxer when I play. I don't mind a ship having real weaknesses in one area if it plays a specific and valuable role in my strategy.

I haven't played with either ship type in a while, but I remember that the Electric Bombers were stupidly good forcefield killers and pretty effective against golems. If I was willing to sacrifice a few of them to support my bombers, they made killing high-mark fortresses a lot easier. I wouldn't take them on every offensive, but when I needed them they performed brilliantly.

Chameleons felt very sturdy to me. Perhaps that's due to what Nodor said: close-combat hulls don't have a lot of natural counters. I don't think this means they're overpowered, just different. Their cloaking is...odd, but does contribute to making it feel unique and interesting. I actually like them the way they are.

[chemical_art]

I wish z bombers were 1/3 of the unit cap and 3x the stats and cost and immune to ion cannons.

Then they'd fulfill the role of "big ship with big single bomb"

[laughingman]

I wish z bombers were 1/3 of the unit cap and 3x the stats and cost and immune to ion cannons.

Then they'd fulfill the role of "big ship with big single bomb"

There are other ships that do that role better, I think. Bombards, for one. I'm not sure they should be more like another kind of ship. I could support insta-kill immunity since they're halfway towards being starships anyway.

Give them cloaking and turn them into stealth bombers.

[Martyn van Buren]

I've never had chameleons myself, but I remember them being pretty nasty in AI hands.  The hiding mechanic works nicely with scouting --- it's a lot harder to plan attacks with scouts.  Tho maybe they could use some individual AI behaviors to stay in low-power mode when they're overmatched or to lure in your ships?

[PokerChen]

Oh yes, I also think Chameleons are fine in terms of raw stats. I've picked them them in my last game and am finding them useful as an unlock (although not overpowered like the blade spawners). IMO the utility comes from the combination of their range, HP, and higher base DPS - the main three that makes a ship always useful in AI hands. Perhaps their unique mechanic can be more interesting and slightly more powerful, balanced with a slight decrease of their stats.

It's very much the electric bombers that I'm worried about. I don't know how to use these best, and I don't feel that they are contributing much per knowledge (bonus unlocks are effectively bonus knowledge). They may contribute their share per resource - especially in the current crystal-heavy economy, but the idea of a cheap unlock also doesn't gel with the idea given in the description: "Expensive bomber that delivers a tremendous payload."