An added idea to give "oomph" to the MK IV nenzul enclave

[Wingflier]

Ooh, I like that idea. Make Mk. IV enclaves only able to build Mk. IV ships when you have an advanced factory, but give it a much saner knowledge cost. Then make Mk. V able to build Mk. IV without an advanced factory, and give it the insane knowledge cost (basically, current Mk. IV cost - new Mk. IV cost)
I would vote this up if we could vote up individual forum posts.

Maybe even make some MK5 drones for extra incentive?

Just makes a lot more sense to me.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm not planning on removing the normal mobile shipyard part, I think that's fine as-is.  Possibly a little OP, but you're still not paying for the ships and having to protect the production ship, etc.

On splitting the IV into IV and V... maybe, but probably not, particularly due to the new code that would have to be added for a ship's buy menu to have options that are available or not available based not on ship cap but directly on you controlling some other structure somewhere.

More generally: the idea is that if you have an advanced factory, don't unlock the enclave IV.  There's not supposed to be a compelling reason to have both.  Drones don't change that.

[Wingflier]

Except for the fact that MKIV Neinzul ships are about as useless as Core Neinzul ships, because you can only spam them at a fixed point in the galaxy.

I don't think that the usefulness of MKIV Neinzul ships should depend on the 14k knowledge cost of a MKIV Enclave Ship (not including the cost of the previous Enclaves ships OR the 6k knowledge cost of MK3 bonus Neinzul bonus ships).

To be able to effectively use just 2 MKIV Neinzul bonus ship types (who, for the sake of argument, we'll say you luckily unlocked) you have to pay:

MK2 Enclave ship - 2,000 knowledge
MK3 Enclave ship - 2,000 knowledge
MK4 Enclave ship - 14,000 knowledge

MK3 Neinzul bonus ship x 2 - 12k knowledge

So 30,000 knowledge, at minimum, for effective use of MKIV Neinzul bonus ship types.

Not realistic (in my opinion).

[Wanderer]

Except for the fact that MKIV Neinzul ships are about as useless as Core Neinzul ships, because you can only spam them at a fixed point in the galaxy.

I find that statement to be inaccurate:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10154.0.html
Look for about halfway in where I take the Factory IV.

I'm not saying you don't have to be selective with it, but being tied to a Fact IV is not the game breaker it looks like at first glance.

[Eternaly_Lost]

Personally, I think the whole mess get rather weird as you have to look at the  factory IV effect of the MK IV nenzul enclave.

That alone varies too much to balance easy.

It goes from next to worthless. No Mk3 fleet ships of any kind unlocked say because you doing a Starship/fallen spire build. I often do that and rarely get any fleet ships unlocked until the K hits the point where I am unlocking stuff because I have nothing better to do. Or maybe you have a Factory IV in a trival to defend place, like say right next to your homeworld.

All the way upto insanely valuable.
(5-6 Mk3 fleet ships unlocked, AI Just destroyed the last Factory IV in the whole Galaxy.)

Splitting might fix that issue. Make Mk V drones that are very powerful, the ability to build all Fleet ships of any Mk you have unlocked anywhere even if you don't have an Advanced Factory, but you pay a lot for that. It a mini-super weapon. You pay a lot of K for it, but you need that K to do so.

Plus that does open up an idea, if you do add the MK V nenzul enclave, change the Mk4 to be something like this. Either you have an advanced factory, or you have to deploy/convert one into a nenzul advanced factory. Have the AI send mini-exowaves (a step above normal waves, but a big step below Exo-waves) at all nenzul advanced factories to make you pay for not holding a real advanced factory, or you have to go to MKV that would build without the nenzul advanced factory.

[Drjones013]

I think the point is for the Enclave Mk IV to be a choice between capturing the factory or trying to skip it. The turrets are an added bonus to make the ship just a touch more survivable. This scheme seems workable now and I'd like to see it implemented as Keith has it.

[TechSY730]

I think the point is for the Enclave Mk IV to be a choice between capturing the factory or trying to skip it. The turrets are an added bonus to make the ship just a touch more survivable. This scheme seems workable now and I'd like to see it implemented as Keith has it.

Agreed. Despite my "griping", I would love to see how it is now. After that, we can see if any further adjustments are needed.

[Wingflier]

I should note that splitting the MKIV Enclaves Starship into "two pieces" is not necessarily as difficult as it may seem.

Instead of going through the rather arduous and time-consuming task of tweaking the build menu to take into account whether you own a Factory or not, simply add a mechanic that automatically paralyzes or destroys any MKIV Enclave Starships until a Factory is taken (or re-taken). There, problem solved.

But yes, let's wait and see.

[keith.lamothe]

I should note that splitting the MKIV Enclaves Starship into "two pieces" is not necessarily as difficult as it may seem.

Instead of going through the rather arduous and time-consuming task of tweaking the build menu to take into account whether you own a Factory or not, simply add a mechanic that automatically paralyzes or destroys any MKIV Enclave Starships until a Factory is taken (or re-taken). There, problem solved.

Ah, yes, fair enough.  The other difficulty is that I don't think the starship constructor build menu (or any other) supports 5 items stacked vertically (for the MkV enclave starship), but something could be done there if necessary.

[Hearteater]

You could fix that by separating out the Mark IV Factory into a separately researched unit.  Probably not even a mobile unit, but a structure like a Space Dock.  That would make Enclave K-costs much easier to balance.

[Wingflier]

I don't know, for some reason I envision the MK5 Enclave Starship to effectively be the Neinzul Mothership. It would be awesome if it even had its own model and was the size of a Golem.

Maybe I'm just being stupid though lol

To fix the space problem you could add an "Enclave" tab to the Starship Constructor like Riot Starships have, then arrange them horizontally (or 3-2, since the MK4 and 5 variations are significantly different).

[chemical_art]

I like the idea of the mothership.

Use the same image just make it much larger as the MK IV, and if not a direct combat brawler make it have cool toys. MK IV production, regen chamber maybe let it build starships too?

In any case, the splitting of enclaves so that the player can access MK IV's with a factory for a milder cost is appealing. Make the new weaker IV cost 4k to unlock and make the V 10k to unlock and you give much better flexibility.

[TechSY730]

Maybe this rather hackish way to implement the dynamic buildability of Mk. IV fleet ships:

Make Mk. IV fleet ships dynamic in cap, starting at 0x cap. Each Mk. IV fabricator, Mk. IV fabricator foldout, or Mk. V enclave gives 1x to the cap, with a maximum of 1x. (1x scaling with the number of homeworlds, of course)
That way, Mk. IV enclaves can build Mk. IV fleet ships, but not without something else to provide that cap.

This does introduce one possible oddity, a Mk. IV enclave can build Mk. IV fleet ships if a Mk. V enclave is built (in addition to allowing it if a Mk. IV factory is owned)
But other than that, this implements the split suggested, with few additional mechanics added.

[Wanderer]

I'm going to have to throw in that I dislike this idea generally, but I'm not against the idea of research your own MK IV space dock.

I'm not entirely sure what the point of the MK V Mothership is, and I've read through the latest batch of posts on it twice.  You research MK IV Neinzul, you don't care about Fact IV anymore.  I'm good with that.  What am I not seeing that's the problem?  The cost?  The cost is there because you can produce Fact IV.

I guess the problem is the idea of a mobile Fact IV warp gate.  Errr, it exists, kinda, but yeah you need a local friendly system.  So, for free, you have a Fact IV and a warp gate to put them wherever you want them, or you have a Fact IV ship that can build them anywhere.

*scratches head*  What am I missing here folks?

[Wingflier]

The 14k knowledge is not worth what the MKIV Enclave gives you, even with the drones. 

If you just want to deep strike, you can do that just fine without spending a dime on Enclave Ships (I did it in my last game with the 2 MKI Enclaves and the Merc MKII, but there are tons of other deep-strike options as well).

If you just want to build MKIV ships, you can capture the factory and use Intergalactic Warpgates if necessary.

None of this would probably matter, except for the fact that Neinzul bonus ships, of the MKIV variety, are extremely situational and non-cost-effective if you are forced to spam them from a fixed point in the galaxy, or wait for them to come through the IG Warpgates.

In short, without changing some major game mechanic, separating the MKIV Enclave into 2 parts (a cheaper one that requires a Factory, an expensive one that doesn't), makes MKIV Neinzul ships very useful, without changing any core mechanics of the game.