An added idea to give "oomph" to the MK IV nenzul enclave

[Wingflier]

The ability to build your own MK IV Factory notwithstanding?

Well yeah.  The way you balance a game like this, especially with such a small playerbase (in comparison) is not to balance on what a ship could do in the best possible hands - you balance based on what players are actually doing with it.  It could be that parasites and siege starships have always been the most broken units in the game, but if nobody uses them or realizes it, that doesn't have a lot of value does it?

If nobody is using MKIV Neinzul Enclaves, then they probably need a buff until people use them.  I know a lot of us use Core Shield Generators, so we might only use these if our Factory was taken out, or if we were using a heavy Neinzul strategy. 

You have to factor in that the cost in knowledge of unlocking the Starship is basically 100 AIP.  Even if you opted to skip the Factory planet (don't know why you would), this knowledge would probably be better-spent elsewhere.  14k knowledge is 2 and 1/3rd level III/IV units that you aren't going to get anyway.  In its current state, I would much rather have beefed up defenses and/or extra starships than spend my knowledge on that, and I think most people feel the same.

[PokerChen]

The ability to build your own MK IV Factory notwithstanding?

Well yeah.  The way you balance a game like this, especially with such a small playerbase (in comparison) is not to balance on what a ship could do in the best possible hands - you balance based on what players are actually doing with it.  It could be that parasites and siege starships have always been the most broken units in the game, but if nobody uses them or realizes it, that doesn't have a lot of value does it?

If nobody is using MKIV Neinzul Enclaves, then they probably need a buff until people use them.  I know a lot of us use Core Shield Generators, so we might only use these if our Factory was taken out, or if we were using a heavy Neinzul strategy. 

You have to factor in that the cost in knowledge of unlocking the Starship is basically 100 AIP.  Even if you opted to skip the Factory planet (don't know why you would), this knowledge would probably be better-spent elsewhere.  14k knowledge is 2 and 1/3rd level III/IV units that you aren't going to get anyway.  In its current state, I would much rather have beefed up defenses and/or extra starships than spend my knowledge on that, and I think most people feel the same.

It depends on the nature of your game, that 100 AIP. You're not just getting the mark IVs for that knowledge, but the whole set from 1 to 4. That removes reinforcement logistics completely. I am definitely willing to trade all my starship-unlocks in for something like that at normal-like difficulties.

If you have a whipping boy (and I don't), you can practically ignore deep-strike threat and kill an AI homeworld 6 planets deep. The buff shouldn't be to ship-stats, per-se. However, its synergy with its natural children is worth looking at...

...*sigh* I may have to demonstrate. One must be prepared to change the way they play their game with Neinzul-enclave investment, starting from ARS ship unlocks.

[Bognor]

You're not just getting the mark IVs for that knowledge, but the whole set from 1 to 4.

Hold on... Surely that's not the case?  Based on the wiki, the ship description states "It can produce fleet ships ... that are available for construction at the Space Dock, or Advanced Factory."  So I'm assuming researching Enclave IV doesn't grant ships you can't already access at mark III.  Otherwise, with three triangle ships, a starting bonus ship, and five ARS unlocks, the Enclave IV could potentially be worth... *grabs calculator*... 64,000 knowledge!

[TechSY730]

You're not just getting the mark IVs for that knowledge, but the whole set from 1 to 4.

Hold on... Surely that's not the case?  Based on the wiki, the ship description states "It can produce fleet ships ... that are available for construction at the Space Dock, or Advanced Factory."  So I'm assuming researching Enclave IV doesn't grant ships you can't already access at mark III.  Otherwise, with three triangle ships, a starting bonus ship, and five ARS unlocks, the Enclave IV could potentially be worth... *grabs calculator*... 64,000 knowledge!

You are correct. If the Mk. IV factory won't let you buld Mk. IV of a ship (due to not unlocking Mk. III yet), then neither will the Mk. IV enclave.


I am beginning to think the MK. IV enclave could go down in knowledge cost a bit. Not a ton, a rebuild-able Mk. IV factory is a HUGE asset after all, but maybe not 14k knowledge worth.

[Diazo]

Actually, when were the Intra-Galactic warp gates introduced?

The existence of those structures is a large part of the reason the Neinzul Enclave is struggling for a role (the other large part being Deep Strikes getting punished).

At least for my playstyle.

D.

[TechSY730]

Well, I still use Neinzul enclaves for reinforcements on the fly. With my attacks, I bring along some cloaker starships, mobile repair stations, and a neinzul enclave set to loop build. It actually does help keep my attack force stronger for longer.

True, the intra-galactic warp gates + the deep strike punish (admittedly, at >4 planets deep, which is still pretty deep) has cheapened the usefulness of the enclaves a good deal.

[Wingflier]

Hahahahaha - MKIV Enclaves cancel the deep strike effect if they're on the planet. Now THAT'S how you make them useful.

I remember the reason Chris added deep strike in the first place was to prevent people from winning the game with just a few planets. I think the 18k knowledge burden (including T2 and T3 Enclaves) does that just fine.

[Hearteater]

If I recall, the biggest problem the Enclave used to have was terrible build speed that basically made Eng IIIs mandatory.  Since its build speed was improved, has anyone messed with them?

[Diazo]

I can't say that I have used them since the build speed upgrade.

I also can't say that I tried them out before said upgrade.

Which is the issue for me, the entire concept of a mobile shipyard just does not work. Because I am never that far out from one of my own planets, where I can engineer assist (or warp-gate) ships in I prefer to spend the knowledge elsewhere.

If I really need to get my fleet somewhere without losses, I'll take the time to kill the wormhole guard posts on the route and accept the extra time it takes me.

Really, for all that the threat mentions the Mk IV enclave, the entire Enclave line is just simply not used by me because I see no point, their role is overshadowed by so many other things.

Actually, what about giving Neinzul Enclaves the Warp-Gate ability so you can build your ships at your space docks and then warp them to where ever the enclave is?

D.

[TechSY730]

If I recall, the biggest problem the Enclave used to have was terrible build speed that basically made Eng IIIs mandatory.  Since its build speed was improved, has anyone messed with them?

As mentioned, I have. Its pretty cool. Not sure if I would sink 3000 into it to get the Mk. II version (especially when I can just get the mercenary version of them, which is basically a more expensive Mk. II), but it proved useful for me. Not game changing, but useful.

[Draco18s]

you can kill a AI Command Station along the way

That is not a deep strike.  The whole point of a deep strike is to murder the ever living daylights out of a single planet that is deep in enemy territory for a low AIP cost.  If you're clearing a path all the way there, you're not going deep into enemy territory, you're pushing the enemy back.  And accruing more AIP.

[Hearteater]

What if they had transport capacity, but could not be loaded normally.  Instead, they could build ships OVER cap, but those ships would stay carried within them (space permitting) until you went under cap.  They could act somewhat like a Regeneration Golem, except you picked the ship type(s) it would replace.

Or, same basic result, but let store up build points over time instead.  When they build a ship, the complete it instantly (provided enough m+c are available) at the cost of 1 BP/mark.  While constructing units they don't accumulate BP (maybe only when powered down, so you can have a queue all set to go).  So you could keep them back as a space dock or let them build up BP to rapid-construct replacements during battle.

[PokerChen]

I'm saying that by the time you obtain enclave-IVs you end up with eight speed-enhanced mobile space docks, rather than two. You won't be needing engineers with that patch for shiptypes with low build-time like cutlasses, gatlings and nanoswarms, which is equivalent to a much cheaper regenerator golem for them.

[Drjones013]

The speed boost has made these actually usable in my current campaign but I'm really hesitant to unlock even the Mk III version. It's great for sending out weak ships for Mk IV and Mk Vs to swat at but the ship itself doesn't have the health to be able to go in with the fleet. That's really my biggest hang up using them during deep strike missions.

It would be really nice to see Neinzul Enclave ships handled more like carriers from Starcraft, able to construct a 'special' Neinzul flyer that nests/deploys from the carrier (if the flyers didn't count towards fleet detection numbers). That way we could up the amount of ships per tier, get a really nice deep-striker/defender out of the deal, lower the knowledge cap, and smooth the unit out overall.

[chemical_art]

To bring up underlying motivations:

1. With current game mechanics, if you get MK I - IV nenzul enclaves, it makes most economic sense to send the first two, maybe three out for deep strikes. The IV and units stay in reserves due to high cost.
2. There is no source of mobile regen. This hurts nenzul units especially hard.