An added idea to give "oomph" to the MK IV nenzul enclave

[chemical_art]

The ability to make lvl 4 fleetships is pretty awesome as it is currently. However, 14k (or is it 17k? can't remember) is very high, but necessary I think.

But I did have an idea...

What have, just to give an added "oomph" to the nenzul enclave, it also functions as a nenzul hive, in that younglings when at low health can go to it to heal.

It seems from a roleplay perspective to fit the enclave well. A special synergy for combining nenzul fleetships with the nenzul starship. It would truly enable the MK IV starship to be the master of deep strikes, rather then its current situation of having the first III marks going out fighting while the IV stays to only make units.

[chemical_art]

To add to this:

MK IV nenzul enclaves are very expensive, so right now they sit in my home turf acting as factories.

This idea would give more of a reward in return for risking them in deep strikes.

[Diazo]

I'm not sure I'd ever risk a Mk IV Neinzul on a deep strike.

I've never actually unlocked one mind you, but I treat them as a "I simply can't capture an Adv Fac on this map, here's another way to get Mk IV ships."

I did experiment with the Mk II Enclave once, but Mk III and IV are too slow to build without engineer support (have not tried since the construction speed boost mind you) and because of the deep strike mechanic you really can't use them how I'd like to so I've never extensively used them.

I would not support reducing the Knowledge cost for the Mk IV, it is an Adv Fac after all, but I would be okay with it getting additional abilities of some sort, preferable ones that affect all ships, not just neinzul younglings though.

Or maybe the Mk IV allows you to build younglings, just at low ship caps?

Overall, I find that it is misplaced. It's purpose is to rebuild your fleet while not at your own planets, but with the deep strike mechanic I never have my fleet far enough away from my own worlds to make it worthwhile.

D.

[TechSY730]

From what I am gathering from a few places, the deep strike "punish" mechanic is really hurting some clever strategies and mobile support units, like this one for example.
As someone else has pointed out, one of the original intents of the deep strike mechanic was to prevent very minimalistic styles of play from being brokenly good, but that purpose is largely served by core shield generators, which accomplish that in a much more direct way.

However, given that core shield gens are optional, and this deep strike mechanic is not, I think the deep strike mechanic should stay, but become much less intense. Like up the distance needed to trigger it to like 8 planets or something. Or maybe up it to 6 planets, but on the 7th planet, the rate the AI responds will be barely noticeable (like, say, only enough to match the strength of 10 Mk. II fleet ships per 20 seconds or something pathetic like that), but then increase the response when going even further out (so like 10 planets out, the AIs response is in full force)
As always, exact numbers subject to adjustment.

EDIT: For reference, the current distance is 4 planets, which means at 5 planets out, you start getting extra spawns from the AI. That is a bit short IMO

[PokerChen]

I haven't been playing recently, but before their build-speed were buffed I took them out on deep-strikes regularly. The trick is (beyond cloakers and cheap starships as decoys - you want other starships to act as screens) to keep them escorted with lower-mark neinzul enclaves, so the enemy targets them instead. :P:P I've aways built the full-cap for every mark such that each can specialise in building its own mark of ships.

Having neinzul-repair abilities should be generally awesome for every mark anyway...

Techsys: the problem I currently see with the deep-strike system is that it is a heavy, binary response set at an arbitrary distance. If the AI scaled the threat-building as you deep-struck further into its home territories, that would be a lot more logical. Starting at the 2nd planet-in (small), and scaling up quadratically, perhaps.

[Diazo]

That's not really the solution though.

I loaded up my last game (80 planet lattice) and the farthest AI homeworld was only 8 hops from my Homeworld.

I'd had the option of a more central location for my homeworld. Had I picked it, no system on the map would have more then 5 hops from my homeworld.

If the deep strike mechanic is going to stay, 4 systems is the right depth I think, the question is should it stay?

D.

[PokerChen]

That's not really the solution though.

I loaded up my last game (80 planet lattice) and the farthest AI homeworld was only 8 hops from my Homeworld.

I'd had the option of a more central location for my homeworld. Had I picked it, no system on the map would have more then 5 hops from my homeworld.

If the deep strike mechanic is going to stay, 4 systems is the right depth I think, the question is should it stay?

D.

Hmm.. it's not a good solution gameplay-wise if deep-strikes remain the way they are. I think a change in mechanic will also be needed with my changes. Namely, deepstrike-threat releases enemy ships on adjacent systems to your striking fleet with an FRD-order to reinforce the system you are in. Should an AI command station not call for help? :P:P

[keith.lamothe]

In the games I've seen records of, the deepstrike mechanic appears to be accomplishing its job: players only rarely do it, but they do sometimes take the plunge for a specific reason.  The result isn't a total smashing of the player, just a significant annoyance and possibly a big problem if the threat winds up piggybacking on some other stuff.

If you pick a map/position where 90%+ of the map is within that 4 hop range, well, more power to you.  There are generally other strategic complications due to the high number of connections, and I think it balances out well.

[Hearteater]

Don't forget that you can kill a AI Command Station along the way and end up 9 hops from allied territory without triggering deep strikes.  That's really when the Enclave Ship is most useful, which is a fairly niche situation.

[zoutzakje]

So far I never had to use neinzul enclaves. There are usually still more important things to unlock with my knowledge.
And considering the mk IV enclaves as a back-up in case I can't get to an advanced factory is not an option either. I always play with CSG's on, so I have no choice but to take at least one of the advanced factories.
Now, if all of the advanced factories would get killed and I would desperately need those mk IV ships, then I would consider unlocking it. But so far that has never happened.

I'm not sure if giving the mk IV enclaves the ability to heal neinzul ships would matter much. Allowing them to build neinzul ships (once unlocked of course) would definitely make them more interesting, though I'm worried it could be OP.

As for the deepstriking mechanic, I think that's ok the way it is. Doesn't need to be made any shorter or longer than 4 hops. Any longer would make deepstriking way to easy (which is why this mechanic was added in the first place), while making it shorter would make it much harder to play low AIP games. There is usually a good target to find within 4 hops, so I think it's good.

[PokerChen]

I'm not sure if giving the mk IV enclaves the ability to heal neinzul ships would matter much. Allowing them to build neinzul ships (once unlocked of course) would definitely make them more interesting, though I'm worried it could be OP.

The only things I could envisage giving automatically to Neinzul Enclaves are non-replicating versions of the viral swarmers. Every neinzul unlock is worth K in their own-right, every additional fleet-ship unlock gives the player much more power, and the Neinzul Bombers/Roaches are way too OP in the hands of the player.

[Martyn van Buren]

I think a mobile regen chamber could be pretty cool, although it would have to be invisible to Neinzul ships on other planets.  You really wouldn't want them running through AI territory randomly to catch up.

[chemical_art]

I think a mobile regen chamber could be pretty cool, although it would have to be invisible to Neinzul ships on other planets.  You really wouldn't want them running through AI territory randomly to catch up.

Admittedly, this whole idea is the powerful itch while I play AI wars with nenzul.

I want a mobile generator, I don't care if it only holds 25 units, takes research, and is fragile. I want it!

[Wingflier]

Hell I say why not - if you're spending 14k knowledge for it, it better do something damn good.

[Wanderer]

Hell I say why not - if you're spending 14k knowledge for it, it better do something damn good.

The ability to build your own MK IV Factory notwithstanding?  Being able to abandon a planet and continue MK IV production is a massive bonus, even if you leave it in your backfield.  I don't know if I agree with the price, but the power of the ship is not to be ignored.