Author Topic: a question on siege starship range  (Read 2264 times)

Offline wololoh

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a question on siege starship range
« on: July 14, 2011, 12:55:58 pm »
Hello,

I just recently got this game from steam, from the summer sale. I'm playing a campaign right now that I will probably lose, but I'm having very much fun with figuring out the game ;).

Only I did encounter something that I couldn't explain, and I tried to look it up in the wiki and on the forum, but couldn't find it. It concerns the 'siege starship'. I had built 2 of them, and was using them to shoot up some 'guardians' that had missiles. The range of the siege starships was a lot higher than the range of those guardians (as I also checked by pressing z+x), so I thought it was easy prey. However, when ordering my siege starships to attack the guardians (which were in my range, according to the range overlay), they actually closed in until they were well within range of the guardians themselves, and only then started shooting them. What am I missing here? (In this case it did not matter much because the siege starships still easily beat the guardians, but I would just like to know what what causing this  ;))

There are more smaller questions that will probable come up, however this is bugging me because I want to know the range mechanics. Or did I just miss something obvious?


Offline x4000

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2011, 12:57:08 pm »
Welcome to the forums!

Most likely the guardians in question had radar dampening, which makes them un-hittable beyond the range noted on that ability.  That would be my best guess, anyway!
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Offline wololoh

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 01:05:34 pm »
Ah, that sounds like a very good explanation  :). Thank you very much for the superfast response!

Offline x4000

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 01:06:12 pm »
My pleasure!
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Offline FarAway Warrior

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2011, 10:28:45 pm »
I won't dare to tresspass on the say of a master, but one other possibility that I ran into early on:  When I target a Siege starship on a ship class that is immune to Antimatter weapons, they instead try to close with that target. 

If another viable target enters range they'll stop to shoot, but that doesn't always happen, and even when it does, the Siege starships have often surrendered their most important advantage:  the stand-off ability.  Getting to 0 range won't do any good and will only get my fragile Siege starships killed, which makes this an annoying feature--one more tiny wrinkle in the game that is equal parts challenging and maddening (depends on how you game, actually). 


Offline Ranakastrasz

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2011, 11:15:16 pm »
I'm pretty sure siege starships can damage force fields if they attack a unit under it that is not immune to antimatter. Also, I think siege starship is a bit of a misnomer now, considering it lacks the ability to *siege* most fortifications.
Edit: Call it a Really big fleet ship annihilation starship :p
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 07:50:47 pm by Ranakastrasz »

Offline superking

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2011, 11:37:29 am »
I think siege starship is a bit of a misnomer now, considering it lacks the ability to *siege* most fortifications.

yup  :P

Offline TechSY730

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2011, 06:48:56 pm »
I'm pretty sure siege starships can damage force fields if they attack a unit under it that is not immune to antimatter. Also, I think siege starship is a bit of a misnomer now, considering it lacks the ability to *siege* most fortifications.
Edit: Call it a Really big fleet ship annihilation starship :p

One of the issues is that artillery like bombardment of fortifications (like guard posts) compromises the "battlefields within battlefields" feel that the devs want for this game. With all due respect to the devs, they sort of took the easy, hackish way to "solve" this problem, made it such that things have to get moderately close to guard posts to attack them (via radar dampening). This sadly had the effect of really hurting the usefulness of artilerry, especially fragile, expensive ones such as siege starships.
TBH, I'm not sure how to fix this, short of letting a few select (non-sniper) units break the "battlefields within battlefields" philosophy, thus eliminating the "problem" and allowing the old system to come back. But that is also the "easy" way out, so that idea is probably a no go.

Offline x4000

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2011, 06:52:59 pm »
When there's no other solution that anyone can think of, after much discussion and months of discussion, I hardly think that settling on the one remaining solution is "easy and hackish."  That's just "the only solution anyone can think of."  The alternative is to do nothing at all.
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Offline SenorPez

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 09:02:16 am »
A few thoughts based on my experience with the units thus far. It took me a while to adjust to how Siege Starships work against how I thought they should work, of course, and as others have pointed out, you kind of end up with a fragile, expensive ship that's really useful against mostly Guardians.

A few ideas:
  • Siege Starship as a planetary defense turret: Redefine "Siege" from the offensive idea of bashing down walls to the "starve them to death" idea. A Siege Starship on a planet that is player-controlled gains the ability to engage any target. Gives you a mobile, powerful, yet fragile and tenuous way to lock down a wormhole so that your strikeforces can hit the planets.
  • Anti Radar-Dampening: Siege Starships gain the ability to offset a percentage of a target's radar dampening, at the expense of some damage, up to -100%. By default, the unit logic would seek the -50% point, but you could micro them to tweak it. So, against a target with Radar Dampening 5k, you could instead hit it from 7.5k at half damage.
  • Anti-Forcefield Damage: Unless I'm doing something wrong, manually setting a preferred target for the Siege Starship still doesn't let it fire into the forcefield; it'll just move to close range, not fire, and get destroyed. Instead, have the Siege Starship be able to fire through a forcefield, again, at the expense of damage.

My thought is that, while I understand and agree with the battlefields-within-battlefields mantra, I do see artillery units as something outside that. Much like a "real" battlefield where an artillery piece could provide support fire to multiple fronts, I feel that artillery units should be able to provide that fire to all battlefields on a planet. Like a real battlefield, too, where you need boots on a hill to capture objectives, AI War's artillery units should be hard pressed to actually finish battles, but well-equipped to support multiple battles in turn.

Offline x4000

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2011, 09:19:12 am »
Siege Starships have been around the block a dozen times at this point.  They've been:

- Engine damage specialists (when they were "dreadnoughts"
- Anti-starship
- Force Field / fortress / etc specialists
- Glass cannons
- Entire-planet artillery

And several combinations of the above.  Right now they pretty well serve to attack large ships of a certain ship type, which makes them really useful for hitting golems, starships, and so on and so forth.  Being able to strike anything on the planet with such power is quite a balance-killer, and not something I'm really looking to get into at this point.  Right now I'm reasonably happy with how the siege starships work, at least compared to every other way that it's been done, although there's always room for improvement.  It's kind of like that saying "democracy is the absolute worst form of government... except for all other kinds of government." ;)
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Offline Legendsmith

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2011, 11:38:20 am »
Engine damage specialists (when they were "dreadnoughts"
I miss my dreadnoughts. :(
What was the problem with them?

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2011, 02:31:12 pm »
I miss my dreadnoughts. :(
What was the problem with them?

I think the engine damage role was taken over by anti-starship arachnids. As far as why the original dreadnought got changed to the siege starship... no idea. I think that was before my time.

But yeah, the siege starship has been tossed around in threads much longer than this one before. I was happy when we finally got the artillery golem immune to radar damping. I doubt that will ever happen for sieges. As it is, the common wisdom is that you should only build siege starships when you have extra resources to burn, and that you should never put knowledge into upgrading them. Without their range or their anti-FF utility, they're kind of a tool with no real use in the game as it is right now. Considering how much they've changed in the past, I'm sure they'll get back on top in the future.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: a question on siege starship range
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 03:01:10 am »
I finally found a niche for sieges.

They make good anti golem and spireship units. Put them on defense against exo waves and watch the raw shots only hit the biggest and most threatening units of the AI fleet.

They are slow, so offensive use is limited. But if you are already dragging along missile frigates in your blobs you can throw some sieges as well for kicks. I much rather just keep them on the defense fleets and so mitigate their high cost.
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