Author Topic: AI War state of the game  (Read 45197 times)

Offline Pluto

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #240 on: November 12, 2012, 12:04:33 am »
Yeah, I get ya - like I said, I understand your viewpoint here. :)  I do like the AI plot that was brought up there.  There's been some interesting ideas floating around.  My main caveat is that I think things that could be done here should involve plots/modifiers of some sort, rather than changing the base game.  Because I'd say, having just started out recently, that for a casual/new player, this game is really, really hard to start out with, even on a fairly low difficulty.

In my position, if the harvester's were nerfed, I'd probably give myself a +% handicap.  My main suggestion, at least for the time being, would be to use the -% handicap on yourself - that way, there's no urge, temptation, etc, to unlock harvester upgrades.  You'll just get to play to the best of your abilities.  Doesn't solve the champion issue, though.

What I'm seeing is that the desired goal is for the AI to attempt to take the tempo from the player.  Whether or not it actually happens is another thing entirely, but the desired feature is for the player to have to continually fight to keep the tempo on his own terms, versus always having it.

And just as a notice to Keith, I'd want to take a moment to reassure him that we're not bashing the game because we think its awful, but because we all love it so much that we want to take it to beyond awesome (at least, that's my stance).

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #241 on: November 12, 2012, 12:11:02 am »
Hey, this is a bit out of left field and I guess it's going to get lost at the end of this rather long thread, but I just had an idea about the economic issues.  So the problem as I understand it is that with Mk III harvesters player economy is in pretty good shape right from the start, and if you're playing with a fairly "light" build and being halfway careful about protecting your ships, it can be pretty hard to run out of resources.  This is bad because it reduces the pressure to take new worlds, thus leading more people to play super-low AIP games and never facing the amount of resistance they'd like to.

On the other hand if you're a more maximalist player you can blow through everything you have pretty quick at the cost of nothing besides your time.  And this is definitely a valid way to play, so we don't want to nerf the hell out of it --- that would lead to pretty much the same result.

So I was thinking, what if we got rid of the extra resource points on the human homeworld and instead buffed the human colony stations (is that what they're called) so that your starting income remains about the same?  This would make it impossible to greatly increase your income without taking new worlds, thus increasing the pressure to take worlds and increase AIP, but wouldn't greatly affect what you can do if you do some conquering and get some high-value worlds.  It might even be worth re-buffing Mk II and III harvesters a little if we do this.

This would have what I think is the nice secondary effect of changing the balance point between econ stations and harvesters such that if you only have two or three worlds upgrading econ stations is more valuable --- which seems good to me; if you're working with a very small empire you'd face the difficult strategic choice of going for the best-income route or getting command stations that help with defense, rather than the current system where (I believe) harvesters totally dominate econ stations unless you have between four and 10 worlds.

Actually I think I may have suggested this same idea a few months ago in another thread that turned into an econ conversation.  Apologies if I'm repeating myself!

------

In a side note, I definitely support the AI trying to hit you when you're down.  Making long refleet times dangerous to the player is definitely an important goal.  I don't think it conflicts with "the player sets the tempo" --- the AI would still gain strength as you push against it, and if you're going slow it will too, but once you've pushed the ratchet up a distance I don't think you ought to expect to be able to pick when you're going to have to face the response you've provoked.

On this topic: am I right to think special forces do not currently ever join threat attacks against your worlds?  Might it be worth thinking about some mechanic where once threat is fairly high the AI can decide to take some of them and make a surprise attack in the range of 1.5-twice current wave size somewhere unexpected?

Offline Draco18s

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #242 on: November 12, 2012, 12:17:57 am »
And just as a notice to Keith, I'd want to take a moment to reassure him that we're not bashing the game because we think its awful, but because we all love it so much that we want to take it to beyond awesome (at least, that's my stance).

Keith (and Chris) are very much aware that that is why we do this.

Unlike some developers, who when asked why their game throws two pages of advertisements for the game's DLC when the game launches (and is unskippable), an official moderator called the post a "skewed view from a selfish perspective."

At least they moved the close buttons to the same place on the screen. >..>

Offline Pluto

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #243 on: November 12, 2012, 12:24:46 am »
Good! :D  I love talking to indie devs.  I've been so alienated to the big companies.  Trying to get something to them is like trying to get through AT&T's support.  But, he hadn't heard it from me yet, so it still stands.  I'm still a bit new to the community here, as can easily be seen.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #244 on: November 12, 2012, 01:15:58 am »
Good! :D  I love talking to indie devs.  I've been so alienated to the big companies.  Trying to get something to them is like trying to get through AT&T's support.  But, he hadn't heard it from me yet, so it still stands.  I'm still a bit new to the community here, as can easily be seen.

Fair enough.  Keith and Chris (the primary devs for AIWar) are incredibly responsive to our discussions and welcome feedback.  Keith (Keith.Lamonte, you'll see him briefly in this discussion here and there) stated somewhere a few pages back that he's kind of letting this one spin out for a bit.

Huge debates like this aren't uncommon around here and they tend to cherry pick the best ideas out of them to use in what time they have available.  Something like this thread though can be nearly impossible to keep track of end to end, unfortunately.

As to the rest, I'll re-read it all and respond tomorrow, so I'm not adversarial again.  However, Martyn does bring up an excellent point.  The reason harvesters are overwhelming early compared to the same eventual gain as Econs will get you is because of the larger # of harvesters on the homeworld.  Reduce that and the option becomes much less cut and dry, though very early game still benefits better from the harvesters, and pretty much always will.  Using the homeworld facilities to augment the removed harvester points makes a lot of sense, however, to assist in balancing off Econ vs. Harvester.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #245 on: November 12, 2012, 08:26:18 am »
Yea, no worries on the bashing (I don't think the term is inappropriate ;)  If you don't like something, blunt force trauma is a likely outcome).  If it was like that all day everyday that would get tiresome, but the game has flaws and I don't expect people to pretend otherwise.  It's easier when folks will agree on what those flaws are, but I guess I can't have everything ;)

In general I know what kinds of tone to expect from certain community members; who uses hyperbole, who can get really tunnel-focused on a limited-scope problem, who's generally positive all the time and who's generally on the negative side, etc.  It's helpful for the purpose of not taking it personally ;)
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Offline zoutzakje

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #246 on: November 12, 2012, 08:41:23 am »
I just enjoy discussions, especially if it's about a topic I know something about. Only as long as we keep it all civilized of course. everybody is entitled to their own opinion, whether you disagree with it or not. And I think this is a great community for that. MMO communities with a discussion thread this long would have ended up in flaming and cursing already most likely.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #247 on: November 12, 2012, 10:05:39 am »
I agree with making homeworlds (both human and AI) spawn harvester spots like normal planets (ok, maybe make it fixed at 4 spots instead of a random +0-6 spots so the RNG gets less chance to screw people over, but that would be better than the current fixed at 8 spots or whatever it is), and buffing econ output the HW preplaced stuff (the home command station and/or the colonies or whatever they are) is a great first step towards balancing the harvester situation.

Also, I know Keith is still trying to figure out good ways to "spice up" champion games, so I don't have worries there. :)

For the proposed "AI attacks after human casualties" plot, would that be scaled with total casualties over the whole game, or if the AI detects a sudden burst of casualties (aka, scaled with the casualties over the past N minutes). Also, where would it get the ships for its counter attacks? Freeing excess defenders? And finally, what would the behavior of those ships be? Threat fleet? Normal threat?

Offline Wingflier

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #248 on: November 12, 2012, 12:06:51 pm »
Update on my game:

So I lost the 9/9 Crosshatch Heroic/SFC 5/5 Hybrids game, I couldn't generate enough resources to do what I wanted.  I unlocked T2 Econ Stations that time, and it still wasn't enough.

This time I'm going to unlock T3 Econ from the beginning and see if I have enough to sustain myself.
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Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #249 on: November 12, 2012, 12:53:33 pm »
Was it a good game?  As in, did that make an interesting challenge or was it just frustrating?  Also, if you didn't have enough resources, were you able to use tactics to get things done with less units than you wanted?

Not making an argument; just wondering if it felt more like the way you imagine the game being.

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #250 on: November 12, 2012, 01:53:36 pm »
I have, finally, read everything in this thread up to the post time on this. To start off, I am going to go into my, probably pointless balance-wise, thoughts on the economy system. I cheat, going to say it flat out. My starting K is 20x larger than normal, (I mentioned the cheating part right?) and I use +300% modifiers for myself. I play 2 HWs, taking Blade Spawners and Spire Corvettes, and play as Normal+Champion. I use FS 4/10, Spirecraft Hard, Golems Hard, Botnet, Z-Traders, Resistance 10/10, Dyson Sphere 10/10, and currently trying out Dark Spire 4/10 for my newest game, an 8/8 against a Raid Engine and Heroic. The Map is a Maze A type with 120 planets. Most of my K goes into unlocking pretty much every single starship, baring cloakers, getting MKII in my triangles, MK III in SBS and Corvettes, the rest into econ upgrades and defenses. I've often debated if I could just win the game right at the start with the sheer amount of things I can use with that, but probably not on a Maze sytle map, and certainly not with CSGs on. Besides, I enjoy playing with the FS campaign, since I like to face the AI with a similar motto that the Spire use. "Yeah, you beat my big hammers and won the war. I will get the REALLY BIG hammers and take it all back now."

If I build my entire starship fleet I WILL have to build some Matter Converters, and it WILL hurt my econ, and that isn't even starting to build up any major defenses on my HWs. Unless I expand and start racking up AIP I am never going to get enough power without taking a serious hit from building so many Matter Converters. The +300% modifier helps offset that, mostly. I cant suffer complete and total loss, or even a >80% loss, of my starship fleet and not expect some serious pain to come my way. I certainly cant refleet it up in under an hour without tanking my econ into ground, and that is with MKIII Harvesters. The fleet ships may be nice for defense, but if the exos come and my starships are gone, I am going to lose planets, and possibly the game.

Does that mean the economy is balanced? Not a freaking clue.  Is my setup a completely rediculs extreme and probably shouldn't be a major concern balance wise? Yes. However it does, IMO, show that the economy isn't as OP as you might think. Even at this most extreme edge I don't have the resources to build everything so quickly that losses are meaningless. Mostly I play with the 300% multipliers just so I don't have to wait 4 hours to fleet up the starships and start with the explosions. Does the current econ allow me to eventually hit a point that I stop caring about the costs of things that are not Z-Trader items or the more expensive FS related ones? Yes. Typically with my setup, that is about 8 worlds beyond my HWs or so, given average econ gains from them. That is going with MKIII Econ Stations on all non-HW planets. And, given how much cheater sauce I have, that seems legit. I estimate I have 6x stronger economy than a normal player should have, and if you can take and control a 50 world empire then you should have enough economy to build pretty much whatever you want almost as quickly as you want, at least that's my opinion. Personally I think a good idea would be, as Martyn van Buren said, to remove the extra resource nods on the human HWs while buffing either the home command station, or better yet the little people pods. (The name of them escapes me right now.)  That way, as Martyn said, the starting econ is just as strong over all, but you wont just automatically get MKIII harvesters because it wont be as valid as a boost anymore. Unless you can find several worlds close by that have 3/3 or better nodes, you would be better off with MKIII Econ Stations. (And if you boost the pods rather than the home command, it makes losing them all the harder for you. ~realizes I am helping the AI~ Crap...)

Now then, on the flip side, for champion balance, that is just kinda broken economy wise IMO. Either the ships given are just too cheap on your econ or the economy gains given are just too strong, but with my setup by the time I get cruiser hulls I only need half the number of planets for energy to become a non-issue. Hell I used to never build most of the Spirecraft after the energy remake/starship re-balance, at least not until I had 10 worlds counting my HWs. I just didn't have enough energy to get a useful number of them to make them matter. Thanks to nebula rewards, I start using them much sooner and only ever building caps of the nicer ones (Implosion, Siegetower, Attritioner, Ion), and I still have more than enough energy to spare. Given the fact that as long as you can survive the deepstrike response, (and possibly other things like raid engines) you can easily get up to cruisers with only just your starting HWs, that seems pretty broken IMO. The energy rewards certainly seem overpowered. I don't know if that is because of having 2 HWs or not though. I also cant judge the gains of M+C, because just the energy gains alone can give a serious buff. If doing a nebula allows me to kill a Matter Converter, then I get an immediate gain of 100 M+C per tick. The champions, the mod forts, and the nebula ships themselves don't seem overpowered to me, however the ships I mainly use for defense so my view of those may be off.

I think of nerf of the energy rewards is in order, but more important than that is the fact that you can just turtle up and go out and snag up some serious gains with very little in the way of AI response. Yes the nemesis fleet is nasty as hell, but that doesn't stop you from getting so powerful early on that only AI HWs and Core Worlds are a danger to you. There needs to a more dynamic response from the AI for Champs. Not just a buff numerically, but something a bit more active. Maybe the AI should start sending search and destroy parties out for the Champs periodically, similar to the spawns for shard recoveries but more powerful and less often. That or just cap the number of nebulas you can do by the number of planets you have. It might not be fair for the champ only players, but it would certainly help tone down the "Stay and home and power rush a Shadow Battleship" style of gameplay.

As far as the Hull type/modifiers issue, I can honestly say I am completely uncertain. I started playing after LoS was already out, with the Alien Bundle. I don't feel I have enough experience in that regard to give any input at all, especially since I have nothing from pre5.0 to compare it to. Are there certain ships that are better at their jobs than others? I think so, but isn't that the point?. Have I played with them all extensively enough to know exactly what is the best type of what? Nope. Only that there are some I like better than others. Personally I prefer low cap ships like Blade Spawners and Stealth Battleships to swarmers, but then that's just a playstyle difference IMO. I like smaller numbers of powerful weapons rather than smothering my foes with uncountable hordes of weaker ones. (Off topic question, what are caps like for starships/low cap ships like on Low or Ultra-Low Caps? Given my playstyle I wonder if I would like that more. I've only tried normal.)

Personally, I favor the idea of a Bonus Ship Omission File, but that is not because I feel are too weak/too strong, but rather certain ship have mechanics I don't like/don't want to deal with. The two that I can think of off the top of my head, Younglings and Spire Gravity Drains. The first of which is something I don't like the concept of. I would rather build something I know will NOT die 3 minutes after I build it. That is all well and good for drones, but those are more of a "Holy crap I need some defenses and I need them now before I die" kind of thing. Great for the Enclave ships (Which I love and thus cant shut off the Neinzul expansion) since that is a natural extension of my turrets, but crappy for a ship I want to use against the AI IMO.

As for the SGDs, I think gravity should be limited to immobile things or extra power, small number thing. I don't mind grav turrets, I love those. I also don't mind grav drills. Hits me just as hard as the AI. That core posst who's name I cant recall right now? Also ok. Its an AI HW post, it is SUPPOSED to help the AI kick me in the nuts. Grav guardians are also not a problem. Most I have ever had to deal with was 6 of them on a single world, and that place was a MKIV that had been on alert for ages. (It had a counter attack post and I didn't feel like dealing with it.) They are strong, but then they are a guardian and even at its worst I have never seen 10 or more of any given guardian on a single world. The Spire Gravity Drains combine powerful grav effects, (max speed of 8 at MKIV, and I think its 16 at MKI)  a fairly good range on said effects, (isn't it 8k or something like that, getting larger per mark?) a fairly large amount of HP, and, being a fleet ship, significant numbers. You can easily run into 100 or more of them, making just sniping them off a significant pain to micro unless you have sniper style ships and can keep them safe long enough to do it. On top of that, while they are definitely decent in human hands, you already get similar, and less micro requiring IMO, units with just the starting options. A cap of Riots, all three marks, will definitely slow things to a crawl, as would spider turrets. Grav turrets can be placed right where you want them and always be repaired/rebuilt exactly where you need them. And they have bigger range. (Especially MKIIIs) In the AI's hands, they are much more affective since the AI can micro to a greater extreme. If it gets them it always seems to have them everywhere it needs to so that it has as much coverage as possible, they are in every single exo/shard recovery making those, especially the recoveries, so much harder than they need to be that I tend to roll a new map if the AI gets them. (Wow, a lot of ranting about SGDs) Ironically, the one thing they do help solve is champion deepstriking into whatever nebula they want. All in all, I would prefer the simple option of just turning off those two mechanics and enjoying the game more. The Bonus Ship Omission File would give me that option, and thus gets my vote.

I can say that armor doesn't feel like it does much, unless its a LOT of armor. Even then, only those things with both a ton of armor and a ton of HP seem to make a difference. (I am looking at you Hardened FF. How come you die faster than my other FFs despite having 500k worth of armor?) As for pen, I feel that unless its just as extreme as some armor, its also of limited value. However, I do find armor rottring to be a serious threat to anything with armor, as even those things that only have 3k-10k worth of armor get seriously kafcked by those, as the increased damage is for EVERYTHING shooting at those victim of said rotting. Still, anything with less than about 3k worth of armor probably doesn't care about rotting, either to not having any armor or those things with non-extreme pen already have enough pen that they might as well not have armor anyway.

Finally, as for the blobbing issue, I don't feel it's an issue. While a major fleet blob can do as it pleases against unalerted planets, if the world has been on alert for any significant time, most especially with MIV worlds, you are either going to need  some support to keep your loses low enough, either if its repairers, starships, or superweapons. It also doesn't negate the idea of counters, only proves it is more effective to have a well balanced fleet than having just 1 or two types of ships. While early on you might be able to get away with smashing your blob against any major force the AI throws at you, eventually your blob is going to get outclassed by the AI, either from the AI blob having better tech than you, or just having a bigger blob than you. Losing your blob comes at the cost of your mobile defense. Now if you are able to make 1-3 choke points as the only way in, good for you. You might not need a mobile defense. But while static defenses are good against waves, they don't mean much against major CPAs or exos unless its still early or early-mid game. Now if your defenses can handle CPAs or exos, you either have one hell of a design, (my hats off to you in that case), only a single choke point you need to defend, or you have Spire Cities. (I love those things.) It is also possible that you're only risking your entire fleet blob when there is no wave counter/plenty of time left, and/or no exo at 90% or better. In that case, you are making the (smart) strategic decision to not risk everything you have when you know you might need it soon. You are rewarded (likely) by not being slaughtered by the AI during waves/cpas/exos. You could always turn off the wave warnings, then you will never know if you need your fleet soon or not. (But does that affect exo counters? I've never tried it myself.) Is the fact that the AI doesn't rush you after losing your blob a minor issue? Kinda. I wish the AI could try and take advantage of your weakened state without a wave, CPA, or an exo, but that is a tempo thing. The devs have said flat out that they are not going to take the tempo away from the player. All things considered, I can live with that and still enjoy the game. (Though I think Keith is planing on giving the AI some type of toy to partially remedy that. [size=3.5pt]And he wonders why people cheat. Look at what kind of toys he gives this AI...[/size])

(Edited for clarity, and to add in my thoughts of the Bonus Ship Omission File as well as armor)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 02:44:51 pm by ZaneWolfe »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #251 on: November 12, 2012, 02:34:53 pm »
OK, to finish up my post about when I use guerrilla tactics and care about hull type multipliers:

I use guerilla tactics when:
  • there is an AI Eye (obvious case)
  • when the planet is too powerful for me to take on and I cannot handle the entire planet being freed at once
  • when I just want to nueter or clean up excess defenders, but I don't want to commit my fleet to it or there is too much on that planet to risk freeingat once
  • often times I will use guerrilla style deep strikes over "blobbing" deep strikes to minimize losses
  • when I want to harass a planet over a period of time to slowly wear it down when I can't afford to quickly wear it down (great with cloaking ships; in fact the neinzul champion is great for this kind of stuff)

I reference hull type multipliers when:
  • I want to prune defenders on the planet and there is a skewed distribution of ships on there
  • When there is a large force ready to "alpha" me on the other side of the wormhole and I don't want to lose a huge chunk of my fleet that doesn't do very much, and send in what will do the best
  • When selecting which ship type to unlock the next mark of next
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 02:37:06 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #252 on: November 12, 2012, 06:53:40 pm »
Jumping back in:

Champions: After playing a few games, doom and not, optimal use of a champion greatly reduces difficulty. Some kind of active attack other than the .2 is needed. I would suggest an occasional wave that is scripted to trigger with other waves (so turns single waves into double, and double into triple, but only rarely).  Make this wave mechanic use the nemesis scale (proportional to completed nebulae + champs / AIP). Alternatively, give the AI respawning champs that behave much like yours.

Energy: not a problem. Unless I am playing FS, I have 2-8 matter converters running thoughout the game. It is often worth holding a planet I otherwise wouldn't strictly for its energy.

Harvester IIIs: Trying for parity with econIIIs was a mistake, because econIIIs only work when you capture additional worlds, and because of the lost oppurtunity to use a more effective command station. I would remove harvester upgrades, or at least reduce the number of resource points on the human homeworld (possibly increase home command income a bit to compensate).

Armor, Ship caps: Many (even most) of the ships are situational, excelling in one particular scenario. And this is good. However, high-cap ships are far less powerful than their stats suggest, because of damage decay or AoE. So their cap-dps should be significantly higher to start. In addition to the multiplier triangle, there should be swarm>low-cap ships>armored ships>swarm triangle. At the moment, high-cap ships are inferior to most others in most situations.

Multipliers: These are about right. Not perfect, by any means, but no huge issues.

Lethality: Again, about right.

Blobbing: As I said before, taking a non-HW planet does not have to be a big deal. I would support optional mechanics to make it more dangerous, but there are enough planets which require special attention and tactical variation as to not make mindless blobbing a good idea.

The Tempo: Again, mostly fine. I frequently have to react to the AI. Again, optional mechanics to alter this in some way would have my support.

Game-Shattering Problems: None. Every game is still different enough so that it is engaging. A lot of complaints seem to be "all I have to do is consult my huge decision tree which took hundreds of hours to flesh out, therefore the game is too easy." I have enough options, and the AI are different enough, that I am still not bored despite over 600 hours of play.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #253 on: November 12, 2012, 07:40:56 pm »
Quote
Oh please. This from the guy who not only revels in arguments but creates actual threads describing why arguments are amusing and worth participating in.
In the off-topic forum.  I try to be a bit more serious and "professional" when we're talking about AI War.

And this is what makes me distrust your motivations here. We both know that's an outright lie, because the thread in question has you bragging about being argumentative specifically about games!

Okay, aside from the fact you are full of shi*… Back to evaluating the topic in question…

It looks like you have found success by disabling the latest expansion, and it appears that other posters are also pointing the finger at the champion for making the game too easy. Again, I wouldn't know, because I didn't like the champion material. So it goes, problem solved?
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI War state of the game
« Reply #254 on: November 12, 2012, 08:20:48 pm »
...a simply a well thought out post that shows you have thought deeply about many aspects of the game...

Hello ZaneWolfe, I'm not one to regularly welcome anyone to the forums.

I'm a bit closed off and unfriendly in regards in that I don't acknowledge people directly, but in the ideas they present on forums.

Your post here demonstrates a well thought out arguement that demonstrates a lot of critical thought and analysis. I don't agree with all of it, and my post here isn't to analysize what I agree or disagree with (maybe another time)

However, your post moved me enough to recongize your effort, so I directly welcome you and your analysis (I'm sorry I can't be more specific, my time is limited).

You are the first person I've seen new whom I thought "wow! He knows his stuff well!" from the very beginning.

Well done!
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 08:25:45 pm by chemical_art »
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