AI War Beta 7.032-7.033 "Peaceful Interlude" Released!

[Tridus]

Playing with alt champion progress for the first time. I'm on a 100 planet map with FS on, so the capturables are fairly spread out and I'm going to take a lot of planets.

What I'm finding is that I'm gaining XP so fast that I don't have anything to spend points on. I'm something like level 14 and still in a frigate. It feels pretty weird. In a very low AIP game, it would probably work better.

Yea, I had a somewhat similar experience in a test a few weeks ago so I had it eventually give you some unlocks (including hull size) when you levelled up, so you wouldn't be stuck at FF half the game if the RNG just decided to put all the big capturables far away from you.

But when I did that, it occurred to me: wouldn't it just be simpler, more intuitive, and way less fiddly if all unlocks (for alt-progress, of course) came that way, rather than by capturing/hacking stuff?  It could also be made more granular than the current "unlock sets" where you get a module, a hull type or size (or extra module if there are no more of those to give at the time), and a mod-fort-type and/or splinter-faction-ally all in one chunk.

So something like:

Level 2 - first new module type
Level 4 - first new hull type (zenith/neinzul/spire)
Level 6 - second new module type
Level 8 - first splinter-faction-ally (if on an intensity high enough to get them all)
Level 10 - destroyer size
Level 12 - third new module type
Level 14 - first new mod-fort-type (zenith/neinzul/spire)
Level 16 - second splinter-faction-ally
Level 18 - fourth new module type
Level 20 - second new hull type (zenith/neinzul/spire)
Level 22 - fifth new module type
Level 24 - third splinter-faction-ally
Level 26 - sixth new module type
Level 28 - second new mod-fort-type (zenith/neinzul/spire)
Level 30 - cruiser size

and so on.  I'd probably shuffle a lot of that stuff around and possibly not have a new thing every other level all the way through, but you get the idea.

Anyway, that would make alt-progress more fully "you will gain the champ-related power as you play normally".  Which may or may not be a good thing, dunno.  I think it would have been more enjoyable in my case.

Thoughts?

That would work better for how I'm playing, for sure. It may work less well for someone who takes very few systems and hacks a lot of stuff to get their upgrades, but even with the current model those people won't have a lot of points to spend on module ranks. So maybe it's not that big a deal.

What's the target number of systems you're expected to capture/K hack in order to unlock everything at intensity 5 (which is the level you get everything)? Under what you proposed you could get a destroyer with some nice upgrades and a splinter faction without very many systems at all, which I think is good. Battleship level is going to take quite a lot of them, but the battleship champion and it's array of mod forts is quite a big power boost so that's probably okay.

[keith.lamothe]

What's the target number of systems you're expected to capture/K hack in order to unlock everything at intensity 5 (which is the level you get everything)?

Generally speaking I target "capturing 14 planets before the first AI HW assault" as a normal experience.  On particularly painful scenarios you may need to do less than that, on easier ones you can get away with a lot more.

Anyway, that gives a total of 10k + 3k*15 = 55,000 knowledge from planets, 45,000 of which applies for alt-progress-xp purposes.  On intensity 5 that's 225,000 xp, or level 45.

If you add in 3 full knowledge hacks that's another 9,000 knowledge from planets, or 45,000 xp, or up to level 54.

If you add in a single spire archive drain that's another 6,000 knowledge (on top of the 3,000 from capturing the planet), or 30,000 xp, or up to level 60.

Level 60 is where I was considering putting battleship-size (so FF/DD/CA/BB at 0/10/30/60, so each phase is longer than the previous) though perhaps 50 is more appropriate.

[Tridus]

Based on that, 60 would make it a lot more likely for people to not have a Battleship at the first HW. I guess they can get around that by turning up the intensity more if they want to get it faster.

If you want it to be really common that you have a Battleship by then, 50 is a better number IMO. 60 is going to encourage some more work to get to it.

[PokerChen]

Keep in mind that people generally want to be able to play with their best toys before the game nominally ends, and that the alt-champion unlocks should not be a grind-fest for its own sake. IIRC each champion level up already being slower than the last, then you should put it as 0/10/30/50. I remember my champ games last year as ending at level 42 or so with 13 nebulae missions and the game was at an end there... would you scale it so that a "normal" game with nebulae and with alt-progress would end up at the same ballpark in terms of level? Or no?

mulling over starting another game after the stats rebalance is stable...

[Peter Ebbesen]

I'm really liking the turret changes and, as I am currently playing Fallen Spire, I've come to appreciate the stat-upgraded economics stations too when combining the benefits of both for massive distributed defenses and defense in depth. I still don't really see how the economic stations can be justified unlocking in a normal game, but here I find that they are worth it for the energy alone with the baseline metal income as a nice bonus.

[Ucchedavada]

I'm also enjoying the new turret caps; it has reduces the tedium of having to juggle where my turrets were located as fronts shift and energy suddenly matters a lot more for me.

However, is there any way to tell at a glance which structures have a galaxy-wide cap, and which have a planet-wide cap? The text just refers "X of Y in service", for both types of caps. Perhaps this could be changed to "X of Y in service (Galaxy-wide)" and "X of Y in service (Planet-wide)" or something similar?

[keith.lamothe]

Keep in mind that people generally want to be able to play with their best toys before the game nominally ends, and that the alt-champion unlocks should not be a grind-fest for its own sake. IIRC each champion level up already being slower than the last, then you should put it as 0/10/30/50.

For normal-progress each level takes more XP than the previous because the rate of XP "income" also goes up over time; with later ones giving substantially more than earlier ones due to the scale of things, your champ's capabilities, etc.  Vaguely I recall the XP for level N being 750 * N-1, or something like that.

But with alt-progress, since the champ isn't earning the XP levels the champ's ability to earn XP doesn't really go up over time, so it's just a fixed 5000 XP per level.

I remember my champ games last year as ending at level 42 or so with 13 nebulae missions and the game was at an end there... would you scale it so that a "normal" game with nebulae and with alt-progress would end up at the same ballpark in terms of level? Or no?

I'd like the endgame results to be in the same ballpark, yes, though that's a secondary goal.  The primary is each feeling fun for those who prefer it.

[Histidine]

I think you're supposed to have battleship by first HW, that's kind of when you need it...

[Fleet Unity]

Just wondering something here I noticed that the MKIV turrets do not have the same caps as the "Normal" Galaxy Wide MKV do I mean you can only build 48 of most of them like the per planet ones and this seems low for a Galaxy Wide cap my question is are the MKIV supposed to have low caps, as the MK V now have the old normal caps but the MKIV do not?

[keith.lamothe]

Just wondering something here I noticed that the MKIV turrets do not have the same caps as the "Normal" Galaxy Wide MKV do I mean you can only build 48 of most of them like the per planet ones and this seems low for a Galaxy Wide cap my question is are the MKIV supposed to have low caps, as the MK V now have the old normal caps on them?

The MkIV caps are intentional, yes.  If they seem to need buffing I can consider it, but basically rather than giving them higher caps than the MkIIIs I gave them lower knowledge costs than I would normally (just giving them the same as the MkIIIs).

The MkVs were buffed with the double-caps as a first effort to keep the turret controllers relevant.  I'm guessing they'll need more than that in some way, not sure if there's been much feedback on that.

[tadrinth]

Something is borked with the Dyson Sphere spawns.  I freed the sphere and have a friendly planet within 2 hops, so the Dyson spawns attempt to head over to my planets.  As soon as they get onto the AI planet between the Sphere and my planet, their health starts dropping, and they die in seconds.

Must have been introduced in 7.032 or 7.033, I think, they were merrily patrolling my systems before I updated.

Save attached. 

[Fleet Unity]

Just wondering something here I noticed that the MKIV turrets do not have the same caps as the "Normal" Galaxy Wide MKV do I mean you can only build 48 of most of them like the per planet ones and this seems low for a Galaxy Wide cap my question is are the MKIV supposed to have low caps, as the MK V now have the old normal caps on them?

The MkIV caps are intentional, yes.  If they seem to need buffing I can consider it, but basically rather than giving them higher caps than the MkIIIs I gave them lower knowledge costs than I would normally (just giving them the same as the MkIIIs).

The MkVs were buffed with the double-caps as a first effort to keep the turret controllers relevant.  I'm guessing they'll need more than that in some way, not sure if there's been much feedback on that.

Ok I see what you mean the MKIV do not cost as much knowledge like the old MKIII used to I think, now that I think about it, and for the MKV I think are fine the way they are, the caps seems balanced to me.

[Tridus]

I remember my champ games last year as ending at level 42 or so with 13 nebulae missions and the game was at an end there... would you scale it so that a "normal" game with nebulae and with alt-progress would end up at the same ballpark in terms of level? Or no?

I'd like the endgame results to be in the same ballpark, yes, though that's a secondary goal.  The primary is each feeling fun for those who prefer it.

Oddly, I've never had a champion get to level 40. I played a game where i conquered 110 planets for the achievement, did every nebula scenario, and didn't get to level 40. Not sure what I'm doing wrong on those, but I always cap out in the 30s.

With alt progress, I can see getting to level 40 as something that actually happens for me.

[NickAragua]

Is there a way to "respec" the champion? 'cause I upgraded myself into a dead end (upgraded the stupid "basic" modules way too many times instead of the good stuff)

[onyhow]

Is there a way to "respec" the champion? 'cause I upgraded myself into a dead end (upgraded the stupid "basic" modules way too many times instead of the good stuff)

Nope, sorry.