AI War Beta 7.018 "Troubleshooters" Released!

[ZaneWolfe]

The special forces spawn rate thus now no longer gains 5% max-strength-cap per special forces guard post outside AI territory (i.e. the ones you chose not to kill), but instead gains 2% for every non-AI planet. Since it seems that at least 50% of all AI planets gets a special forces guard post this works out in your favor overall.

Can you elaborate on this? My playstyle is 120 planets with FS on. I kinda have to take a lot of worlds. Does that mean every time I take a world, or just kill an AI Command Station, the Special Forces grow by 2%? Cause... that sounds REALLY painful. Sure once I start rolling 2-3 cities I've got a fleet that can crush most SF fleets (and mostly ignore the new Riot SS they get), but I have to clear a LOT of territory to get that far first.... And the SF get all the nastiest unlocks...

[keith.lamothe]

Does that mean every time I take a world, or just kill an AI Command Station, the Special Forces grow by 2%?

It means their population cap increases, yes.

It's not fully multiplicative, in that it applies after all the other multipliers but the math is sf_cap = (sf_cap) * ( 1 + ( 0.02 * number of non-AI planets) ), rather than sf_cap = sf_cap * (1.02 ^ number of non-AI planets).

So if you normally take 60 planets, before that would have meant generally at least 30 special forces guard posts.  Which meant either 30 AIP or a 150% boost to the sf cap.  Now it's just a 60% boost to the sf cap.

That kind of mirrors the reinforcement logic: up to a point taking territory causes the AI to deploy a lot more defensive forces.

[ZaneWolfe]

Does that mean every time I take a world, or just kill an AI Command Station, the Special Forces grow by 2%?

It means their population cap increases, yes.

It's not fully multiplicative, in that it applies after all the other multipliers but the math is sf_cap = (sf_cap) * ( 1 + ( 0.02 * number of non-AI planets) ), rather than sf_cap = sf_cap * (1.02 ^ number of non-AI planets).

So if you normally take 60 planets, before that would have meant generally at least 30 special forces guard posts.  Which meant either 30 AIP or a 150% boost to the sf cap.  Now it's just a 60% boost to the sf cap.

That kind of mirrors the reinforcement logic: up to a point taking territory causes the AI to deploy a lot more defensive forces.

Please tell me that like reinforcement logic it has a maximum cap? Because yeah 60 is about the minimum number of planets I kill. Even keeping the AIP floored the AI gets a ton of unlocks and always seems to get a few nasty toys. Including toys that the FS have to take seriously.

[keith.lamothe]

Please tell me that like reinforcement logic it has a maximum cap?

Yea, once there are about 15 nonAI planets it stops getting extra reinforcements from that.  And also it stops getting benefit from AIP past a certain difficulty-dependent point, though the intent (to be done later) behind that was for the AI to shift that stuff into offensive measures.  So stuff that won't just stonewall you, but might kill you.

[Vinraith]

Please tell me that like reinforcement logic it has a maximum cap? Because yeah 60 is about the minimum number of planets I kill. Even keeping the AIP floored the AI gets a ton of unlocks and always seems to get a few nasty toys. Including toys that the FS have to take seriously.

OK, I'm having a hard time making "taking 60 planets" and "keeping the AIP floored" exist in the same mental universe... I assume you're playing Fallen Spire or something, so you mean AIP floored by the standards of a high AIP game?

[ZaneWolfe]

Please tell me that like reinforcement logic it has a maximum cap?

Yea, once there are about 15 nonAI planets it stops getting extra reinforcements from that.  And also it stops getting benefit from AIP past a certain difficulty-dependent point, though the intent (to be done later) behind that was for the AI to shift that stuff into offensive measures.  So stuff that won't just stonewall you, but might kill you.

Ok, sounds fair to me then. My last match was against an Artilleriest/Special Forces Captain and something less terrifying. And then it got SBS too. I can deal with the AI trying to bash my face in. I build defenses and have patrols for that. But running into a wall of long range bombardment SF like that, it hurts. And with the maps I use, you eventually have to take them out. A 5 city FS fleet doesn't care about much, even some exos can be dealt with just with those ships, but that deathball took half my fleet out, and over 60% of the casualties were before I even got in range.

Oh yeah, since I remember it now. Warp Counter Attacks. Both posts and hacking response. Didn't those get changed so they can only be so far from the nearest AI Warp Gate? Cause I recall a few that seemed to go right into my back lines, even though the closest AI Warp Gate was over 8 jumps out. (Maze C Map) I thought it was changed to prevent that. Those were from Warp Counter Attack Guardposts, but I figured I would ask about hacking too since its a similar concept.

[keith.lamothe]

but that deathball took half my fleet out, and over 60% of the casualties were before I even got in range.

I don't suppose mobile gravity support (MkIII riots, iirc, have a module for that) and railcannon/railclusters for point-defense against drones was feasible?

Oh yeah, since I remember it now. Warp Counter Attacks. Both posts and hacking response. Didn't those get changed so they can only be so far from the nearest AI Warp Gate? Cause I recall a few that seemed to go right into my back lines, even though the closest AI Warp Gate was over 8 jumps out. (Maze C Map) I thought it was changed to prevent that. Those were from Warp Counter Attack Guardposts, but I figured I would ask about hacking too since its a similar concept.

I don't remember the details but I believe all sources of counterwaves are supposed to obey that rule, yes.  Might be some kind of edge case if it can't find any valid target in "range", but I'm guessing you didn't wipe the galaxy clean of all warp gates to 5 hops from your territory in all directions... actually I had better not assume that with you

Anyway, if you have a save from before popping a counter post (or triggering a counterwave via hacking) that results in a deeper-than-expected counterwave, shoot it my way and I can investigate.

[Vinraith]

So that reinforcement bug that was corrected, would that explain why a game started under 7.017 ended with us being flooded by enemy starships?

[keith.lamothe]

So that reinforcement bug that was corrected, would that explain why a game started under 7.017 ended with us being flooded by enemy starships?

Offensively flooded, or defensively flooded?

Either way, the reinforcement logic (through all of these versions) has continued to have a cap on the number of starships it can reinforce up to on a planet.

Now, if they were coming as part of waves, that's a different thing.  Mainly AIP based there.

[Vinraith]

So that reinforcement bug that was corrected, would that explain why a game started under 7.017 ended with us being flooded by enemy starships?

Offensively flooded, or defensively flooded?

Either way, the reinforcement logic (through all of these versions) has continued to have a cap on the number of starships it can reinforce up to on a planet.

Now, if they were coming as part of waves, that's a different thing.  Mainly AIP based there.

Threat, so offensive that used to be defensive.

[ZaneWolfe]

Please tell me that like reinforcement logic it has a maximum cap? Because yeah 60 is about the minimum number of planets I kill. Even keeping the AIP floored the AI gets a ton of unlocks and always seems to get a few nasty toys. Including toys that the FS have to take seriously.

OK, I'm having a hard time making "taking 60 planets" and "keeping the AIP floored" exist in the same mental universe... I assume you're playing Fallen Spire or something, so you mean AIP floored by the standards of a high AIP game?

Spire Civilian leaders, and LOTS of raiding. I play with Full View so I know where they are at right from the start, as well as DCs and CPs. I go after them as soon as acceptable, making sure by every 30-45 min mark I've hit every command station I can to free those. This minimizes the AIP gain from them while maximizing the AIP reduction. Once you hit 3 free Civilian Leaders you're gaining 7 for 9 reduction. It only get's better from there. I take my time, make sure I am ready to expand and can defend off attacks. I try to limit taking planets to only those needed to free Civ leaders until I have my first Spire City Shard. Build it right on the wormhold leading to my HW, use 1 Habitation Center and 5 Reactors. that is 6 Shields, 12 Heavy Beam Mods, 24 Laser Mods, and Photon Cannons. All backed up with a MKIII Military Station. Once that is up and running normal waves are mostly meaningless, they just become threatfleet. They want in, they have to go through my new front gate. Exos can be held at bay with extra defenses and my mobile fleet. Once the 2nd city is up, its 1 Hab and 5 Shipyards.

This starts the FS fleet rolling, at which point raiding becomes less sneaking in and more send the FS fleet into the AI's teeth and neuter every single planet in my path. Again, taking the time to NOT kill command stations until either another tick of reduction comes along. Every time they clear out a system, I use MK III Engies and repair damage while MK Is are with the shipyards rebuilding any lost ships. The deeper the FS fleet neuters, the deeper I can raid with sneaker tactics. Once it is time to expand deeper, I push the front line up. Sometimes, especially if the Trader comes to a planet which would be ideal for my new front line, I push hard and fast, dealing with the rapid AIP gain as best as I can, but it is usually well worth it. A front line City backed by P-Booster, P-Inhib, BHM, and an OMD, especially if I've reached 5 Cities and have the Galactic Capitol tech, can weather out almost any storm.

Its a long, SLOW process, and rather easy to get yourself killed. I use 300% Econ to prevent any issues on that front, and run at ultra low caps so the game doesn't lag out too bad, but I rather enjoy myself. When it fails, it fails epicly. Massive exos backed by giant threatfleet build up can easily steamroll if you're not careful or don't have defenses up in time. But when it works? It is a thing of beauty. An ever expanding Human-Spire Empire, slowly but surely reclaiming the galaxy from the AI. Powerful Spire Capitol ships tear through AI threatballs like wet tissue, then go on to shred AI world after AI world with gleaming photon lances and massive beam cannons. All the while the Alliance is defended by Human Military bases protected by the shields and weapons of Spire Cities. The latter providing the defense and some extra firepower, while the former amplifies the output of Spire weapons while adding powerful turrets and deadly fortresses of their own. And if the threatball is too big for the FS fleet (rare but does happen a few times) or the fleet is being rebuilt for some reason? (F*&K Nuke Eyes! I've had to scrap entire FS fleets rather than lose something valuable) An EMP Warhead, a Botnet Golem and a whatever other golems I've found (Widows work best) make VERY quick work of most threatballs, turning AI weapons into either scrap, or my own roaming protectors.

It's also why I like Champions, nebula too. It gives me a new raiding toy, and the nebula give me something to do while I wait for exos to arrive/the next hour to tick over. Also Super Terminal hacking helps a lot as well. While the response can get down right insane, (I've seen it get worse than my FS exos) my defenses are just as crazy. On a somewhat related note, is it really necessary for the Super Terminal to raise the AIP floor still? It now costs Hacking Progress per tick, and once started you can NOT stop unless you blow up the terminal, preventing you from ever using it again. (Actually destroying the terminal became impossible for me in one game, simply because the response had become so crazy I couldn't reach the damn thing. Zombies with tachyon beams REALLY make it hard to slip in, especially when being spawned in the hundreds.)

[Vinraith]

This is really quite a game, in that the game you're playing is so completely disconnected from the game I'm playing as to be nearly unrecognizable. I play no superweapons, no FS, completely hidden map, and as far as I'm concerned the bulk of the fun in the game comes from scouting/map discovery and very carefully deciding what small handful of worlds I capture, two things that don't exist in the game you're playing at all. Wild.

[keith.lamothe]

Threat, so offensive that used to be defensive.

Bear in mind that waves that are sent straight to AI planets turn up as threat.  But I'm guessing you weren't in a ? ? ? wave situation.

Had you run into these starships while they weren't threat yet?  Or was the first you'd met them when they popped through the wormhole to your planets for tea?

[ZaneWolfe]

but that deathball took half my fleet out, and over 60% of the casualties were before I even got in range.

I don't suppose mobile gravity support (MkIII riots, iirc, have a module for that) and railcannon/railclusters for point-defense against drones was feasible?

I didn't think to try that. That would have helped with the SBS. But would have been utterly useless against the Z-Bombards. If I recall correctly, they are sniper immune. So baring a few cursed golems with the fleet, (Which is what I ended up using the next time I faced a SF ball) no real way to out range them. I had gotten the design backup for the Z-bombard blown up, so I couldn't corrupt it. (F*&K NUKE EYES!)

Oh yeah, since I remember it now. Warp Counter Attacks. Both posts and hacking response. Didn't those get changed so they can only be so far from the nearest AI Warp Gate? Cause I recall a few that seemed to go right into my back lines, even though the closest AI Warp Gate was over 8 jumps out. (Maze C Map) I thought it was changed to prevent that. Those were from Warp Counter Attack Guardposts, but I figured I would ask about hacking too since its a similar concept.

I don't remember the details but I believe all sources of counterwaves are supposed to obey that rule, yes.  Might be some kind of edge case if it can't find any valid target in "range", but I'm guessing you didn't wipe the galaxy clean of all warp gates to 5 hops from your territory in all directions... actually I had better not assume that with you

Anyway, if you have a save from before popping a counter post (or triggering a counterwave via hacking) that results in a deeper-than-expected counterwave, shoot it my way and I can investigate.

Well I typically play on Maze maps, so it is fairly easy reach that 5 hops out limit. I don't have a save current, but Ill save next time I pop a few, and see what I can do. What I can tell you is that when it happens its never just a jump or 2 from the front lines, it is typically well into my backyard. Do I need to put on advanced logging, or just the save file should be fine?

[Vinraith]

Threat, so offensive that used to be defensive.

Bear in mind that waves that are sent straight to AI planets turn up as threat.  But I'm guessing you weren't in a ? ? ? wave situation.

No, we were pretty successfully managing waves, no waves arrived.

Had you run into these starships while they weren't threat yet?  Or was the first you'd met them when they popped through the wormhole to your planets for tea?

Yes, they were defending planets initially. One of the AI's was a turtle type, do they just get much nastier reinforcements these days?