Arcen Games
General Category => AI War Classic => Topic started by: keith.lamothe on April 07, 2014, 09:49:04 am
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(Crossposted from this blog post (http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2014/04/ai-war-beta-7018-troubleshooters.html))
This one is another fairly small release while we're focused on the last few weeks before releasing The Last Federation,
So we shot some troublesome bugs. Some old, like some missing art assets for non-steam installs. Some new, like the Heroic AI using its newfound ability to buy more champions for its waves... a little too enthusiastically.
But the AI's also gotten better at shooting troublemakers. In the kneecaps (or suitably analogous regions). Mainly as a quality-of-life improvement, we've removed the AIP-on-death from Special Forces Guard Posts, so they're now autotargeted and won't clutter up your backfield with enemy units that trigger various "ah! There's an enemy on the planet!" logic in sub-optimal ways. Since that AIP (or increased special forces size, if left alive previously) was a significant (albeit small) part of the overall balance, however, a corresponding buff was made to the SF. Specifically, they now spend a portion of their strength on Riot Control Starships. Some of you may not be familiar with how much havoc Riots can cause. You'll probably know soon.
Enjoy!
This is a standard update that you can download through the in-game updater itself, if you already have 4.000 or later. When you launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time. If you don't have 4.000 or later, you can download that here.
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But the AI's also gotten better at shooting troublemakers. In the kneecaps (or suitably analogous regions).
I laughed. And almost snorted hot tea all over my keyboard.
Have you, per chance, played Paranoia at all?
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Have you, per chance, played Paranoia at all?
Sounds like suspicious talk, citizen.
But actually no, I've seen little bits of discussion about it (all treason, I'm sure). Did they have a bit about kneecap-analogues?
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weeeee Guardian unlock fix!
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But actually no, I've seen little bits of discussion about it (all treason, I'm sure). Did they have a bit about kneecap-analogues?
No, more the rest of that sentence.
"Congratulations, Citizen, you've been promoted to the status of Troubleshooter! Your job is to find trouble, and shoot it! Here is your RED security clearance, RED laser pistol, and RED reflec armor. Remember Troubleshooter, if you find any commie mutant traitors, shoot first and we'll ask you questions later."
Sounds like suspicious talk, citizen.
I lost four clones before I'd ever even played. :P
My friend Jim is the only person I am aware of who achieved Ultraviolet clearance (and thus permission to read the rules) legitimately.
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weeeee Guardian unlock fix!
I'm sure you'll just be so happy when EMP guardians start visiting your chokepoint in the middle of a CPA again :)
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Yep! In addition to the 10/10 Neinzul Rocketry Corps' Mark III EMP Warheads!
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Oh dear, SF Riots.
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Does this mean that Special Forces posts now need to be destroyed to take out Eyes?
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So, uh ... those guardian picks are only chosen on AI start, right? They never unlock more guardians?
'cos that 10 planet diff 10 could do without EMP guardians in the mix.
Thanks for the heroic fix, I just couldn't find a reasonable way to cheese my way through the latest CPA + 2 waves + fallen spire exo situation as things were. As for special forces getting riots ... man. As if 15,000 ships all showing up while your armada is miles away from the nearest exit weren't bad enough, now they get bonus engine damage and tractors too!
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Does this mean that Special Forces posts now need to be destroyed to take out Eyes?
I don't think it should impact that, no.
So, uh ... those guardian picks are only chosen on AI start, right? They never unlock more guardians?
Each AI gets a new guardian pick at 50 AIP, and another one every 100 AIP after that. That's total progression, rather than effective (so ignoring data centers, etc).
In your 10/10 game iirc you've already passed the 50 AIP mark (at 94 or some such?) so that pick's already happened. And I suspect that if you reach 150 AIP in that game then whether or not it rolls EMPs will probably not be your biggest problem :)
now they get bonus engine damage and tractors too!
For now they only use a single 4xLaser, 2xShield layout for the SF riots, so no tractorization. And just MkIs, so no tazers or grav modules, etc. If more pain is called for, more pain will be delivered ;)
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For now they only use a single 4xLaser, 2xShield layout for the SF riots, so no tractorization. And just MkIs, so no tazers or grav modules, etc. If more pain is called for, more pain will be delivered ;)
So, one of these days, the SF will include Spire Fleet Ships, or Golems?
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For now they only use a single 4xLaser, 2xShield layout for the SF riots, so no tractorization. And just MkIs, so no tazers or grav modules, etc. If more pain is called for, more pain will be delivered ;)
So, one of these days, the SF will include Spire Fleet Ships, or Golems?
Oh, not the core mechanic. Maybe the Hunter plot would :) Though I suppose the Hunter's H/K's don't really scale up such as you'd notice in one of your games.
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So, one of these days, the SF will include Spire Fleet Ships, or the AI will start repairing Golems?
FTFY ;)
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A long, long time ago, under 4.x or so if I had to guess, Chris went through and added extra data centers for a number of AI types that spawned AIP producing structures. SF Captain was one of them. I suppose he doesn't need his extra data centers anymore. Actually, with the AIP change to black hole machines the one way doormaster might need a tweak too.
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The special forces spawn rate thus now no longer gains 5% max-strength-cap per special forces guard post outside AI territory (i.e. the ones you chose not to kill), but instead gains 2% for every non-AI planet. Since it seems that at least 50% of all AI planets gets a special forces guard post this works out in your favor overall.
Can you elaborate on this? My playstyle is 120 planets with FS on. I kinda have to take a lot of worlds. Does that mean every time I take a world, or just kill an AI Command Station, the Special Forces grow by 2%? Cause... that sounds REALLY painful. Sure once I start rolling 2-3 cities I've got a fleet that can crush most SF fleets (and mostly ignore the new Riot SS they get), but I have to clear a LOT of territory to get that far first.... And the SF get all the nastiest unlocks...
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Does that mean every time I take a world, or just kill an AI Command Station, the Special Forces grow by 2%?
It means their population cap increases, yes.
It's not fully multiplicative, in that it applies after all the other multipliers but the math is sf_cap = (sf_cap) * ( 1 + ( 0.02 * number of non-AI planets) ), rather than sf_cap = sf_cap * (1.02 ^ number of non-AI planets).
So if you normally take 60 planets, before that would have meant generally at least 30 special forces guard posts. Which meant either 30 AIP or a 150% boost to the sf cap. Now it's just a 60% boost to the sf cap.
That kind of mirrors the reinforcement logic: up to a point taking territory causes the AI to deploy a lot more defensive forces.
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Does that mean every time I take a world, or just kill an AI Command Station, the Special Forces grow by 2%?
It means their population cap increases, yes.
It's not fully multiplicative, in that it applies after all the other multipliers but the math is sf_cap = (sf_cap) * ( 1 + ( 0.02 * number of non-AI planets) ), rather than sf_cap = sf_cap * (1.02 ^ number of non-AI planets).
So if you normally take 60 planets, before that would have meant generally at least 30 special forces guard posts. Which meant either 30 AIP or a 150% boost to the sf cap. Now it's just a 60% boost to the sf cap.
That kind of mirrors the reinforcement logic: up to a point taking territory causes the AI to deploy a lot more defensive forces.
Please tell me that like reinforcement logic it has a maximum cap? Because yeah 60 is about the minimum number of planets I kill. Even keeping the AIP floored the AI gets a ton of unlocks and always seems to get a few nasty toys. Including toys that the FS have to take seriously.
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Please tell me that like reinforcement logic it has a maximum cap?
Yea, once there are about 15 nonAI planets it stops getting extra reinforcements from that. And also it stops getting benefit from AIP past a certain difficulty-dependent point, though the intent (to be done later) behind that was for the AI to shift that stuff into offensive measures. So stuff that won't just stonewall you, but might kill you.
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Please tell me that like reinforcement logic it has a maximum cap? Because yeah 60 is about the minimum number of planets I kill. Even keeping the AIP floored the AI gets a ton of unlocks and always seems to get a few nasty toys. Including toys that the FS have to take seriously.
OK, I'm having a hard time making "taking 60 planets" and "keeping the AIP floored" exist in the same mental universe... I assume you're playing Fallen Spire or something, so you mean AIP floored by the standards of a high AIP game?
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Please tell me that like reinforcement logic it has a maximum cap?
Yea, once there are about 15 nonAI planets it stops getting extra reinforcements from that. And also it stops getting benefit from AIP past a certain difficulty-dependent point, though the intent (to be done later) behind that was for the AI to shift that stuff into offensive measures. So stuff that won't just stonewall you, but might kill you.
Ok, sounds fair to me then. My last match was against an Artilleriest/Special Forces Captain and something less terrifying. And then it got SBS too. I can deal with the AI trying to bash my face in. I build defenses and have patrols for that. But running into a wall of long range bombardment SF like that, it hurts. And with the maps I use, you eventually have to take them out. A 5 city FS fleet doesn't care about much, even some exos can be dealt with just with those ships, but that deathball took half my fleet out, and over 60% of the casualties were before I even got in range.
Oh yeah, since I remember it now. Warp Counter Attacks. Both posts and hacking response. Didn't those get changed so they can only be so far from the nearest AI Warp Gate? Cause I recall a few that seemed to go right into my back lines, even though the closest AI Warp Gate was over 8 jumps out. (Maze C Map) I thought it was changed to prevent that. Those were from Warp Counter Attack Guardposts, but I figured I would ask about hacking too since its a similar concept.
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but that deathball took half my fleet out, and over 60% of the casualties were before I even got in range.
I don't suppose mobile gravity support (MkIII riots, iirc, have a module for that) and railcannon/railclusters for point-defense against drones was feasible?
Oh yeah, since I remember it now. Warp Counter Attacks. Both posts and hacking response. Didn't those get changed so they can only be so far from the nearest AI Warp Gate? Cause I recall a few that seemed to go right into my back lines, even though the closest AI Warp Gate was over 8 jumps out. (Maze C Map) I thought it was changed to prevent that. Those were from Warp Counter Attack Guardposts, but I figured I would ask about hacking too since its a similar concept.
I don't remember the details but I believe all sources of counterwaves are supposed to obey that rule, yes. Might be some kind of edge case if it can't find any valid target in "range", but I'm guessing you didn't wipe the galaxy clean of all warp gates to 5 hops from your territory in all directions... actually I had better not assume that with you ;)
Anyway, if you have a save from before popping a counter post (or triggering a counterwave via hacking) that results in a deeper-than-expected counterwave, shoot it my way and I can investigate.
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So that reinforcement bug that was corrected, would that explain why a game started under 7.017 ended with us being flooded by enemy starships?
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So that reinforcement bug that was corrected, would that explain why a game started under 7.017 ended with us being flooded by enemy starships?
Offensively flooded, or defensively flooded?
Either way, the reinforcement logic (through all of these versions) has continued to have a cap on the number of starships it can reinforce up to on a planet.
Now, if they were coming as part of waves, that's a different thing. Mainly AIP based there.
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So that reinforcement bug that was corrected, would that explain why a game started under 7.017 ended with us being flooded by enemy starships?
Offensively flooded, or defensively flooded?
Either way, the reinforcement logic (through all of these versions) has continued to have a cap on the number of starships it can reinforce up to on a planet.
Now, if they were coming as part of waves, that's a different thing. Mainly AIP based there.
Threat, so offensive that used to be defensive.
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Please tell me that like reinforcement logic it has a maximum cap? Because yeah 60 is about the minimum number of planets I kill. Even keeping the AIP floored the AI gets a ton of unlocks and always seems to get a few nasty toys. Including toys that the FS have to take seriously.
OK, I'm having a hard time making "taking 60 planets" and "keeping the AIP floored" exist in the same mental universe... I assume you're playing Fallen Spire or something, so you mean AIP floored by the standards of a high AIP game?
Spire Civilian leaders, and LOTS of raiding. I play with Full View so I know where they are at right from the start, as well as DCs and CPs. I go after them as soon as acceptable, making sure by every 30-45 min mark I've hit every command station I can to free those. This minimizes the AIP gain from them while maximizing the AIP reduction. Once you hit 3 free Civilian Leaders you're gaining 7 for 9 reduction. It only get's better from there. I take my time, make sure I am ready to expand and can defend off attacks. I try to limit taking planets to only those needed to free Civ leaders until I have my first Spire City Shard. Build it right on the wormhold leading to my HW, use 1 Habitation Center and 5 Reactors. that is 6 Shields, 12 Heavy Beam Mods, 24 Laser Mods, and Photon Cannons. All backed up with a MKIII Military Station. Once that is up and running normal waves are mostly meaningless, they just become threatfleet. They want in, they have to go through my new front gate. Exos can be held at bay with extra defenses and my mobile fleet. Once the 2nd city is up, its 1 Hab and 5 Shipyards.
This starts the FS fleet rolling, at which point raiding becomes less sneaking in and more send the FS fleet into the AI's teeth and neuter every single planet in my path. Again, taking the time to NOT kill command stations until either another tick of reduction comes along. Every time they clear out a system, I use MK III Engies and repair damage while MK Is are with the shipyards rebuilding any lost ships. The deeper the FS fleet neuters, the deeper I can raid with sneaker tactics. Once it is time to expand deeper, I push the front line up. Sometimes, especially if the Trader comes to a planet which would be ideal for my new front line, I push hard and fast, dealing with the rapid AIP gain as best as I can, but it is usually well worth it. A front line City backed by P-Booster, P-Inhib, BHM, and an OMD, especially if I've reached 5 Cities and have the Galactic Capitol tech, can weather out almost any storm.
Its a long, SLOW process, and rather easy to get yourself killed. I use 300% Econ to prevent any issues on that front, and run at ultra low caps so the game doesn't lag out too bad, but I rather enjoy myself. When it fails, it fails epicly. Massive exos backed by giant threatfleet build up can easily steamroll if you're not careful or don't have defenses up in time. But when it works? It is a thing of beauty. An ever expanding Human-Spire Empire, slowly but surely reclaiming the galaxy from the AI. Powerful Spire Capitol ships tear through AI threatballs like wet tissue, then go on to shred AI world after AI world with gleaming photon lances and massive beam cannons. All the while the Alliance is defended by Human Military bases protected by the shields and weapons of Spire Cities. The latter providing the defense and some extra firepower, while the former amplifies the output of Spire weapons while adding powerful turrets and deadly fortresses of their own. And if the threatball is too big for the FS fleet (rare but does happen a few times) or the fleet is being rebuilt for some reason? (F*&K Nuke Eyes! I've had to scrap entire FS fleets rather than lose something valuable) An EMP Warhead, a Botnet Golem and a whatever other golems I've found (Widows work best) make VERY quick work of most threatballs, turning AI weapons into either scrap, or my own roaming protectors.
It's also why I like Champions, nebula too. It gives me a new raiding toy, and the nebula give me something to do while I wait for exos to arrive/the next hour to tick over. Also Super Terminal hacking helps a lot as well. While the response can get down right insane, (I've seen it get worse than my FS exos) my defenses are just as crazy. On a somewhat related note, is it really necessary for the Super Terminal to raise the AIP floor still? It now costs Hacking Progress per tick, and once started you can NOT stop unless you blow up the terminal, preventing you from ever using it again. (Actually destroying the terminal became impossible for me in one game, simply because the response had become so crazy I couldn't reach the damn thing. Zombies with tachyon beams REALLY make it hard to slip in, especially when being spawned in the hundreds.)
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This is really quite a game, in that the game you're playing is so completely disconnected from the game I'm playing as to be nearly unrecognizable. I play no superweapons, no FS, completely hidden map, and as far as I'm concerned the bulk of the fun in the game comes from scouting/map discovery and very carefully deciding what small handful of worlds I capture, two things that don't exist in the game you're playing at all. Wild.
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Threat, so offensive that used to be defensive.
Bear in mind that waves that are sent straight to AI planets turn up as threat. But I'm guessing you weren't in a ? ? ? wave situation.
Had you run into these starships while they weren't threat yet? Or was the first you'd met them when they popped through the wormhole to your planets for tea?
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but that deathball took half my fleet out, and over 60% of the casualties were before I even got in range.
I don't suppose mobile gravity support (MkIII riots, iirc, have a module for that) and railcannon/railclusters for point-defense against drones was feasible?
I didn't think to try that. That would have helped with the SBS. But would have been utterly useless against the Z-Bombards. If I recall correctly, they are sniper immune. So baring a few cursed golems with the fleet, (Which is what I ended up using the next time I faced a SF ball) no real way to out range them. I had gotten the design backup for the Z-bombard blown up, so I couldn't corrupt it. (F*&K NUKE EYES!)
Oh yeah, since I remember it now. Warp Counter Attacks. Both posts and hacking response. Didn't those get changed so they can only be so far from the nearest AI Warp Gate? Cause I recall a few that seemed to go right into my back lines, even though the closest AI Warp Gate was over 8 jumps out. (Maze C Map) I thought it was changed to prevent that. Those were from Warp Counter Attack Guardposts, but I figured I would ask about hacking too since its a similar concept.
I don't remember the details but I believe all sources of counterwaves are supposed to obey that rule, yes. Might be some kind of edge case if it can't find any valid target in "range", but I'm guessing you didn't wipe the galaxy clean of all warp gates to 5 hops from your territory in all directions... actually I had better not assume that with you ;)
Anyway, if you have a save from before popping a counter post (or triggering a counterwave via hacking) that results in a deeper-than-expected counterwave, shoot it my way and I can investigate.
Well I typically play on Maze maps, so it is fairly easy reach that 5 hops out limit. I don't have a save current, but Ill save next time I pop a few, and see what I can do. What I can tell you is that when it happens its never just a jump or 2 from the front lines, it is typically well into my backyard. Do I need to put on advanced logging, or just the save file should be fine?
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Threat, so offensive that used to be defensive.
Bear in mind that waves that are sent straight to AI planets turn up as threat. But I'm guessing you weren't in a ? ? ? wave situation.
No, we were pretty successfully managing waves, no ??? waves arrived.
Had you run into these starships while they weren't threat yet? Or was the first you'd met them when they popped through the wormhole to your planets for tea?
Yes, they were defending planets initially. One of the AI's was a turtle type, do they just get much nastier reinforcements these days?
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Threat, so offensive that used to be defensive.
Bear in mind that waves that are sent straight to AI planets turn up as threat. But I'm guessing you weren't in a ? ? ? wave situation.
No, we were pretty successfully managing waves, no ??? waves arrived.
Had you run into these starships while they weren't threat yet? Or was the first you'd met them when they popped through the wormhole to your planets for tea?
Yes, they were defending planets initially. One of the AI's was a turtle type, do they just get much nastier reinforcements these days?
Some AIs do not get waves, instead they have more reinforcements. Turtles get more reinforcements. Not sure how it works, but I'm guessing reinforcements happen more often.
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Do I need to put on advanced logging, or just the save file should be fine?
Just the save is fine; I don't think the counter-wave target seeking is particularly logged.
Yes, they were defending planets initially. One of the AI's was a turtle type, do they just get much nastier reinforcements these days?
Their reinforcement multiplier is historically much higher, yes. But that doesn't increase their max starships (on a given planet) cap. Just increases the rate at which they reach it.
Anyway, as I'm sure you're aware attacking a planet tends to release some or all of its guards as threat. When you say "flood" of starships, how many are we talking? 10? 100? How many planets had you attacked since the last time threat was cleared out?
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Yes, they were defending planets initially. One of the AI's was a turtle type, do they just get much nastier reinforcements these days?
Their reinforcement multiplier is historically much higher, yes. But that doesn't increase their max starships (on a given planet) cap. Just increases the rate at which they reach it.
Anyway, as I'm sure you're aware attacking a planet tends to release some or all of its guards as threat. When you say "flood" of starships, how many are we talking? 10? 100? How many planets had you attacked since the last time threat was cleared out?
Wait, the reinforcement multiplier is higher? How much higher? Wiki says it's 1.00. Damn you Wiki, you've lied to me for the last time!
Edit: Wiki was written by the AI wasn't it. Crafty crafty AI...
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This is really quite a game, in that the game you're playing is so completely disconnected from the game I'm playing as to be nearly unrecognizable. I play no superweapons, no FS, completely hidden map, and as far as I'm concerned the bulk of the fun in the game comes from scouting/map discovery and very carefully deciding what small handful of worlds I capture, two things that don't exist in the game you're playing at all. Wild.
I used to play exactly like that when I first started. But then I figured out how to play with the FS, through dying horribly several times due to either an exo or the chase waves. After getting several more things down, I finally got to the point I could build Spire Cruisers. Suddenly I wasn't as outgunned anymore. I had a weapon that the AI didn't just respect, it down right feared. Naturally I did what any villain would do and went mad with power, crushing everything I could and slaughtering AI worlds as fast as possible, determined to claim the entire galaxy as my own kingdom. As expected, I died horribly as the AI response quickly chewed up my relatively tiny FS fleet and then reminded me that I was not Emperor of the Galaxy. I was the bug the AI had almost exterminated once already and allowed to live because it had better things to do with its time. I've never really gotten over that though. So I learned to blend the idea of the base game, quietly building power just enough not to be noticed until you're ready to strike, with the theme of the Fallen Spire, trying to build enough power to fight the AI straight up. I use the Spire Civilians to keep the AI relatively docile until I can get the capitol ships built, and then burn a path of vengeance through AI space while keeping AI fairly tame by leaving its precious command stations intact. Next thing it knows, I've got 8+ Cities up, and can walk the final shard back to my HW because the fleet escorting it will vaporize anything that even twitches inside its firing range. Sure I may have 200+ AIP, but it's still on the AIP floor. All I had to do was take my time, carefully building my forces, and when the time was right swing the biggest hammer the galaxy has ever seen right into the AI's face. It may take forever at times to finish a game, but the grand finale makes it all worth while. And patience and planing are what separate a Xanatos or a Lehnsherr from simple Dent or a Gargamel.
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Wait, the reinforcement multiplier is higher? How much higher? Wiki says it's 1.00. Damn you Wiki, you've lied to me for the last time!
Edit: Wiki was written by the AI wasn't it. Crafty crafty AI...
Oh, wait, it may not be the multiplier after all. Though I would think it would be > 1 for that one if for any of them.
But every time a turtle would announce a wave, it instead gets an extra round of reinforcements. But it does the normal reinforcement logic for those, rather than just launching a wave to its own planet on guard duty (if it were that, that would explain a ton of starships nowadays, but thankfully it's not doing that).
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So, one of these days, the SF will include Spire Fleet Ships, or the AI will start repairing Golems?
FTFY ;)
That could be part of the Advanced Hybrid plot.
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Do I need to put on advanced logging, or just the save file should be fine?
Just the save is fine; I don't think the counter-wave target seeking is particularly logged.
Yes, they were defending planets initially. One of the AI's was a turtle type, do they just get much nastier reinforcements these days?
Their reinforcement multiplier is historically much higher, yes. But that doesn't increase their max starships (on a given planet) cap. Just increases the rate at which they reach it.
Anyway, as I'm sure you're aware attacking a planet tends to release some or all of its guards as threat. When you say "flood" of starships, how many are we talking? 10? 100? How many planets had you attacked since the last time threat was cleared out?
It was pretty early so "flood" is a relative term, I'd need to go back and check to get a real number. What's the max starship per planet cap?
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It was pretty early so "flood" is a relative term, I'd need to go back and check to get a real number. What's the max starship per planet cap?
3*planet_tech_level. Core and AI HW planets always count as 4 for that. So a MkIV planet can add starships if it's currently got less than 12. If that particular reinforcement buys more than one, it will go over the cap, and that planet is alerted and under major attack and relatively few other AI planets are alerted, this can lead to that one planet getting multiple reinforcements during that cycle. Since the units don't actually spawn until after the cycle is done (for MP sync reasons) that means that particular planet might reinforce from 11 up to, say, 20 in one go. That would require a very favorable set of circumstances, though (mainly the being-alerted-and-under-attack while few-AI-planets-alerted thing).
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It was pretty early so "flood" is a relative term, I'd need to go back and check to get a real number. What's the max starship per planet cap?
3*planet_tech_level. Core and AI HW planets always count as 4 for that. So a MkIV planet can add starships if it's currently got less than 12. If that particular reinforcement buys more than one, it will go over the cap, and that planet is alerted and under major attack and relatively few other AI planets are alerted, this can lead to that one planet getting multiple reinforcements during that cycle. Since the units don't actually spawn until after the cycle is done (for MP sync reasons) that means that particular planet might reinforce from 11 up to, say, 20 in one go. That would require a very favorable set of circumstances, though (mainly the being-alerted-and-under-attack while few-AI-planets-alerted thing).
OK, I'm starting to think this was just sloppy threat management by a co-op partner who will go unnamed (in fairness, there were some mitigating circumstances). I'd have said there were perhaps 2 dozen ships in that threatball, but if he knocked over three worlds in quick succession that doesn't sound like it would be completely outlandish. Thanks for the details.
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OK, I'm starting to think this was just sloppy threat management by a co-op partner who will go unnamed (in fairness, there were some mitigating circumstances). I'd have said there were perhaps 2 dozen ships in that threatball, but if he knocked over three worlds in quick succession that doesn't sound like it would be completely outlandish. Thanks for the details.
Glad I could help :) Yea, mugging 3 planets without thorough cleanup could easily account for 24 adventurous AI starships.
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Before pausing that 9/9 heroic game I cleaned up four planets in my backfield, to limit where exos were coming from and to give myself room to dump a 4th spire city eventually. So I'm now on 534 effective AIP.
Before the update:
Starting CreateWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 24:24:48 ; Player.AIType: Heroic ; Player.AIDifficulty: 9 ; EffectiveAIP: 534 ; AITechLevel: 2 ; IsSchizo: False
= For a final FleetShipBudget for this wave's fleet ships of 7568.04
player.AITypeData has GetsChampionsInWaves flag, so:
= SpecialBudget = originalFleetShipBudget * 1.0 = 7568.04
** Picked 9 AIHeroHumanBattleship @ 768 each = 6912
skippingAIHeroHumanBattleship because its strength cost (768) is more than our total remaining SpecialBudget (656.04)
** Picked 1 AIHeroHumanCruiser @ 576 each = 576
skippingAIHeroHumanDestroyer because its strength cost (384) is more than our total remaining SpecialBudget (80.04)
** Picked 1 AIFreeAgentBasicCommandShip @ 192 each = 192
= After picking AI-type-specific ships, SpecialBudget is now -111.96
== For a grand-total Strength value of 15918.39
So, considering I have two home commands I was getting 18 battleships of goodness every wave. Now:
Starting CreateWaveToPlanet at Game Time: 24:24:48 ; Player.AIType: Heroic ; Player.AIDifficulty: 9 ; EffectiveAIP: 534 ; AITechLevel: 2 ; IsSchizo: False
MultiplierFromWaveInterval = 1.5
MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetCount = 1
FleetShipBudget = (base value, equivalent to a single mkI fighter on high caps) = 1
FleetShipBudget *= AITechLevel = 2
FleetShipBudget *= MultiplierFromWaveInterval = 3
FleetShipBudget *= MultiplierFromHumanHomePlanetCount = 3
FleetShipBudget *= EffectiveAIP = 1602
FleetShipBudget *= player.GetHandicapMultiplier() = 1602
preMinStep_DifficultyMultiplier = player.AIDifficulty / ( 13 - player.AIDifficulty ) = 2.25
FleetShipBudget *= preMinStep_DifficultyMultiplier = 3604.5
FleetShipBudget *= rand( 0.8 , 1.1 ) = 3711.86
FleetShipBudget *= player.AITypeData.WaveSizeMultiplier = 3711.86
postMinStep_DifficultyMultiplier = (if <= 3 then 1, <= 4 : 1.5, <= 5 : 1.75, <= 6 : 2, <= 7 : 2.25, <= 9 : 2.5, <= 9.3 : 2.9, <= 9.6 : 3.3, <= 9.8 : 4, 10 : 5) : 2.5
FleetShipBudget *= postMinStep_DifficultyMultiplier = 9279.65
= For a final FleetShipBudget for this wave's fleet ships of 9279.65
player.AITypeData has GetsChampionsInWaves flag, so:
= SpecialBudget = originalFleetShipBudget * 1.0 = 9279.65
** Picked 1 AIHeroNeinzulBattleship @ 7000 each = 7000
skippingAIHeroNeinzulBattleship because its strength cost (7000) is more than our total remaining SpecialBudget (2279.65)
skippingAIHeroNeinzulCruiser because its strength cost (3500) is more than our total remaining SpecialBudget (2279.65)
** Picked 2 AIHeroNeinzulDestroyer @ 1000 each = 2000
** Picked 1 AIHeroNeinzulFrigate @ 300 each = 300
= After picking AI-type-specific ships, SpecialBudget is now -20.35
== For a grand-total Strength value of 13701.69
1 battleship, 2 destroyers and 1 frigate. As compared to previously, where a wave 424 effective AIP gave me@
* since AIType has GetsChampionsInWaves flag, and rolled 3 on a d4, picked 6 AIHeroNeinzulDestroyer
Sounds about appropriate comparatively to what it used to be, but I'm not sure if the overall strength doesn't need tweaking a touch upwards seeing as this is supposed to be an 'uber-hard' AI type. Also, it would be nice if there was some randomness to the waves. So rather than descending through the list, some times it decides to send 30 frigates instead or something.
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Sounds about appropriate comparatively to what it used to be, but I'm not sure if the overall strength doesn't need tweaking a touch upwards seeing as this is supposed to be an 'uber-hard' AI type.
Interesting, thanks for the comparison. Good to know the numbers are at least in the ballpark now. Rather than the "exterminate! exterminate! exterminate!" category, as before ;)
Anyway, I can certainly tweak Heroic up some. Do you mean overall wave sizes or just how much champion it gets to buy for each wave? The latter is easily tweaked (that's the line that says "= SpecialBudget = originalFleetShipBudget * 1.0 = 9279.65"; I can change that 1.0 to whatever). Are you thinking something like 20%? Or like 50%?
Also, it would be nice if there was some randomness to the waves. So rather than descending through the list, some times it decides to send 30 frigates instead or something.
That's certainly a possibility, sure. I could just have it, for each non-frigate tier, have a random chance of skipping to the next one.
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Oh, definitely boost the heroic portion itself. Between shields covering fleet ships and a large amount of drone spam from modules, there's already enough stuff flying around on-planet. The chance to skip would be good too, at 25% you'd have 1.5% chance of getting an all-frigate wave
I'd say 50% minimum, and I might even stretch to double. If we regard one battleship as 1/3rd of a Mk. 5 H/K, then we've gone from 3 H/Ks per wave to about 0.5. I'm fairly certain that, say, a technologist raider would give me considerably more grief than 1/2 a Mk 5 H/K every 20 minutes or so. Again, I'm current sitting at 530 AIP on diff 9. I'd expect a bit of a harsh response, just maybe not in a 'every single wave can wipe a full 2 spire city fleet' kinda way.
Huge grain of salt here though, I haven't played without superweapons of some sort since ... 3.xx days?
Apropos of nothing, just had a wonderful benny hill moment. 10k CPA, of which 7k hits one of my lesser defended chokepoints (I really need to clean up my entry paths). Spire fleet warps in 30 seconds later, and they run to the next planet. And the next one. And the next one. In the end I think I chased them across 6 of my practically undefended backwood planets before finally killing the last one. Always nice to have a little light relief after a grindy week.
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Apropos of nothing, just had a wonderful benny hill moment.
Hahaha, yea, the AI is capable of some virtuoso "advance in retrograde" performances.
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I've been wondering why my 9/9 game kept lagging for a few seconds once every couple of minutes, I think I might have worked it out. I've pretty much not seen the special forces since hour 5 when they had 12,000 or so ships, so running into them a moment ago was a shock.
They have 55 carriers. That I saw, some more may not have made in on-planet yet. I'm estimating roughly 35,000 ships. And yes, the hunter plot is on.
Doing Special Forces Spawn; Game Time: 25:49:48
baseSizeFactor = 30
specialDifficultyFactor = Game.Instance.Options.TotalSpecialDifficultyModifier (based on difficulty, homeworld count, handicap) = 6
effectiveAIP = 540
aiTypeMultiplier = (1 + 2 per Special Forces Captain AI) = 1
nonAIPlanetCountMultiplier = Mat.One + ( FInt.FromParts( 0, 020 ) * numberOfSpecialForcesPostsInNonAITerritory ) = 1.45
specialForcesStrengthCap = baseSizeFactor * difficultyFactor * effectiveAIP * aiTypeMultiplier * nonAIPlanetCountMultiplier = 141409.86
p.s, that 141,409 strength? That's roughly 70,000 Mk. 2 bombers and change.
Sounds to me I just found the cause of my stutter / possibly those out of memory exceptions I occasionally had while a CPA was going at the same time.
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How can you tell the Special Forces have arrived? Because you can't see the sky anymore.
Getting a specialDifficultyFactor of 6 on diff 9 means you have 2 homeworlds, yes? And 540 AIP on diff 9, tsk, tsk ;)
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In the 20 minutes before work, I decided to lay a trap:
(http://www.shock-therapy.org/hotlink/AIWarAAR/suprise.png)
Was it really worth the 70 AIP? I'm not sure. Also, apparantly Zenith auto-bombs are nuke immune ... who knew?
So, 610 AIP of diff 9 now ;)
Oh, and that attack in the top corner? That's me part-way through 2 1,200 ship waves hitting one of my outlying planets at once. The only thing that planet has on it is a cap of Mk. 5 lightning, missile, sniper and laser turrets. It survived. Hence my wish for a bit more pop to the heroic waves again.
Edit:
specialForcesStrengthCap = baseSizeFactor * difficultyFactor * effectiveAIP * aiTypeMultiplier * nonAIPlanetCountMultiplier = 161912.11
strengthMissing = specialForcesStrengthCap - totalExistingSpecialForcesStrength = 142337.11
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In the 20 minutes before work, I decided to lay a trap:
Nobody expects the Nuclear Inqui-*boom, problem solved*
Was it really worth the 70 AIP? I'm not sure.
Unless it was immediately before an AI HW assault, not worth it from a gameplay standpoint. But from a style standpoint?
specialForcesStrengthCap = baseSizeFactor * difficultyFactor * effectiveAIP * aiTypeMultiplier * nonAIPlanetCountMultiplier = 161912.11
strengthMissing = specialForcesStrengthCap - totalExistingSpecialForcesStrength = 142337.11
Somebody made an awful big hole.
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In the 20 minutes before work, I decided to lay a trap:
Nobody expects the Nuclear Inqui-*boom, problem solved*
Probably not a good idea to make them use the nuclear comfy chair then... :P
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In the 20 minutes before work, I decided to lay a trap:
Nobody expects the Nuclear Inqui-*boom, problem solved*
Probably not a good idea to make them use the nuclear comfy chair then... :P
Or poke them with the soft doomsday cushions.
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Probably not a good idea to make them use the nuclear comfy chair then... :P
Or poke them with the soft doomsday cushions.
I was mainly thinking of the Cajun Warheads.
More bites!
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I'm nowhere near attacking the AI homeworlds, I was thinking more that I didn't want to run into an insane special forces fleet when making my fourth shard retrieval.
To be fair though after the heroic re-nerfifying I wasn't really feeling any pain at 530 AIP anyway. That may have something to do with the 2 superforts, 2 neinzul forts, 2 spire forts, 2 zenith forts, full cap of Mk 1 and 2 fortresses, full cap of OMDs and Armor Inhibitors, and full caps of 4 different types of core turrets on every planet within 2 hops of a hostile AI world. Even spread over four main access points, that's still a lot of firepower.
Why yes, I do currently have three zenith generators. And yet that core spider turret controller over there still looks tempting...
p.s. my economy is currently running at +19,000 metal per second, exclusive of salvage. I'm seriously considering building matter converters to hit that 12 million energy achievement.
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Why yes, I do currently have three zenith generators. And yet that core spider turret controller over there still looks tempting...
The core spider turret controller always looks tempting though! :)
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Trip report: I got a little carried away with that whole 'move the defensive line' forward thing.
AIP: 729
Diff: 9
Accumulated Knowledge: 15,750
Planets owned: 27/80. Yes, I'm counting the nuked one as 'owned'.
ARSes Popped to date: 1
AI homeworlds: Unscouted
Total Matter Coverters: 206. Economy was still positive - just
Nukes exploded: 1
Spire cities: 5
Dyson Sphere: Still MIA
AI Status: Tetchy
Lots, as in tens of thousands per hour, of border aggression. The waves however, still aren't too bad
player.AITypeData has GetsChampionsInWaves flag, so:
= SpecialBudget = originalFleetShipBudget * 1.0 = 19164.75
** Picked 2 AIHeroNeinzulBattleship @ 7000 each = 14000
skippingAIHeroNeinzulBattleship because its strength cost (7000) is more than our total remaining SpecialBudget (5164.75)
** Picked 1 AIHeroNeinzulCruiser @ 3500 each = 3500
** Picked 1 AIHeroNeinzulDestroyer @ 1000 each = 1000
** Picked 3 AIHeroNeinzulFrigate @ 300 each = 900
The impact of Salvage on a Fallen Spire game is insane - I'm almost always capped out on resources, even with a full cap of Mk. 3 engineers there's nothing more to spend the cash on until the trader rolls around again. 70-80 million salvage from a fallen spire exo is not uncommon. Fallen spire fleet rebuild times are pretty much a thing of the past at the moment, provided you have enough engineers to pour into it.
Anyway, my bone to pick for today - why do remains rebuilders love mines so much? They will quite happily rebuild an entire 500 unit minefield before moving on to peckery little things like forcefields or Mk. 5 turrets. Presumably there's some logic in there that they go for the faster to rebuild thing?
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Trip report: I got a little carried away with that whole 'move the defensive line' forward thing.
Victory by rushing to the aid of the enemy's capitol.
Planets owned: 27/80. Yes, I'm counting the nuked one as 'owned'.
In this sense (http://media.desura.com/cache/images/members/1/437/436204/thumb_940x3000/owned_tank.jpg).
Total Matter Coverters: 206. Economy was still positive - just
Nevermind the outdoors, you're trying to resistance-heat a solar system.
AI Status: Tetchy
I think "Appalled" might be more accurate.
Lots, as in tens of thousands per hour, of border aggression.
How did you manage that? An AI planet has to be fairly overflowing to do that.
70-80 million salvage from a fallen spire exo is not uncommon.
It's a chipper shredder that spits out Spire Capital Ships. You don't need engineers so much as a really big funnel.
Anyway, my bone to pick for today - why do remains rebuilders love mines so much? They will quite happily rebuild an entire 500 unit minefield before moving on to peckery little things like forcefields or Mk. 5 turrets. Presumably there's some logic in there that they go for the faster to rebuild thing?
Just checked the code and it prefers:
1) Command stations to everything.
2) Things that have fewer other rebuilders trying to rebuild it.
3) In case of tie of the above, basically whatever's oldest (and thus earlier in the list being checked)
Do you think it should prefer the more expensive stuff, or some other relatively simple priority?
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Anyway, my bone to pick for today - why do remains rebuilders love mines so much? They will quite happily rebuild an entire 500 unit minefield before moving on to peckery little things like forcefields or Mk. 5 turrets. Presumably there's some logic in there that they go for the faster to rebuild thing?
Just checked the code and it prefers:
1) Command stations to everything.
2) Things that have fewer other rebuilders trying to rebuild it.
3) In case of tie of the above, basically whatever's oldest (and thus earlier in the list being checked)
Do you think it should prefer the more expensive stuff, or some other relatively simple priority?
How about proximity based. It annoys me that it always runs across the whole system rather than trying to build the turrets that are within it's rebuild beam range first.
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Anyway, my bone to pick for today - why do remains rebuilders love mines so much? They will quite happily rebuild an entire 500 unit minefield before moving on to peckery little things like forcefields or Mk. 5 turrets. Presumably there's some logic in there that they go for the faster to rebuild thing?
Just checked the code and it prefers:
1) Command stations to everything.
2) Things that have fewer other rebuilders trying to rebuild it.
3) In case of tie of the above, basically whatever's oldest (and thus earlier in the list being checked)
Do you think it should prefer the more expensive stuff, or some other relatively simple priority?
My preferred list:
[0) Whatever you targeted with it]
1) Command Stations
2) Energy Collectors
3) Proximity
4) something else
Watching stuff that takes up energy getting rebuilt before the Energy Collector is somewhat vexing. I've taken to scrapping the Collector to get it auto-rebuilt rather than trying to get the Rebuilder drones to get around to it.
It'd also be nice if a Rebuilder would zoom across the system, start a rebuild, then wait there to rebuild more stuff, rather than zooming back to the start point only to repeat.
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Anyway, my bone to pick for today - why do remains rebuilders love mines so much? They will quite happily rebuild an entire 500 unit minefield before moving on to peckery little things like forcefields or Mk. 5 turrets. Presumably there's some logic in there that they go for the faster to rebuild thing?
Just checked the code and it prefers:
1) Command stations to everything.
2) Things that have fewer other rebuilders trying to rebuild it.
3) In case of tie of the above, basically whatever's oldest (and thus earlier in the list being checked)
Do you think it should prefer the more expensive stuff, or some other relatively simple priority?
My preferred list:
[0) Whatever you targeted with it]
1) Command Stations
2) Energy Collectors
3) Proximity
4) something else
Watching stuff that takes up energy getting rebuilt before the Energy Collector is somewhat vexing. I've taken to scrapping the Collector to get it auto-rebuilt rather than trying to get the Rebuilder drones to get around to it.
It'd also be nice if a Rebuilder would zoom across the system, start a rebuild, then wait there to rebuild more stuff, rather than zooming back to the start point only to repeat.
That's what I was saying. Damn Remains Rebuilder has a 3 second attention span. Literally.
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That's what I was saying. Damn Remains Rebuilder has a 3 second attention span. Literally.
Technically, it doesn't even have that.
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That's what I was saying. Damn Remains Rebuilder has a 3 second attention span. Literally.
Technically, it doesn't even have that.
So... you're saying it doesn't even have the attention span of a goldfish? I now have a nickname for them... Dorrie.
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Ah, well that would explain it then. The first things to die in any attack are gonna be the minefields...
Toranth's list of priorities sounds about right to me, the energy generator in particular. Proximity based prioritisation would also mean forcefields covering the command station go back up ASAP, although those poor sniper turrets at the edge of the grav well might get a bit lonely.
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although those poor sniper turrets at the edge of the grav well might get a bit lonely.
I tend to put my sniper turrets just the far side of the command station.
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although those poor sniper turrets at the edge of the grav well might get a bit lonely.
I tend to put my sniper turrets just the far side of the command station.
Good boy.
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Ah, well that would explain it then. The first things to die in any attack are gonna be the minefields...
Yep; the remains "ships" are created on-death, so if there were no remains on the planet then the first thing to die gets its remains at the front of the list, etc.
Though when I looked more closely at the code while putting in some prioritization last night I noticed that it did already have some prioritization based on range. I put in more emphasis on "stuff that's already in range is preferable" in cases where there's no overriding concern.
On having them not fly back to their FRD point between every rebuild, that would be considerably more complex as that's more an attribute of FRD behavior than of rebuilder behavior. Got a bunch of other code I've been messing with lately, not wanting to add that particular can of worms right now.
Speaking of cans of worms, my last batch of AI tweaks basically made a goodly chunk of its "ok, I've got some threat on this planet now, what is there to do?" logic go heavily sideways. Basically it's always acting as if there's no interesting human presence to attack or fend off, so it just finds somewhere else to go. Kind of a "Three Sheets To The Wind" AI Type ;) It's eerie how the overall effect of the AI's behavior still often hovers around the edges of making sense.
Anyway, going to try to get that fix out with the other pending stuff tonight after normal work hours (TLF's in crunch mode right now, don't want to be on-call for critical AIW bugs during the day).
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Well.. you should always use attack move with Engineers and Rebuilders if there are AI ships present. FRD is ok between waves etc.
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I'd love a control option that said, "engineers and rebuilders suppress FRD when hostile units are present" (the harvesters ignore cloaked units toggle would then suppress the suppression for cloaked units).
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Oh, while I'm thinking about it is there any easy way to update the steam achievements? The one for having 2 million energy for example, where in-game you actually need to have 12 million. I don't want my 200 matter converters going un-noticed, now ;)
Super low priority of course, but might be worth a trawl though prior to the new expansion in August.
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What about when remains rebuilders stubbornly try to rebuild something they can't yet (like due to energy) instead of finding a new thing to rebuild?
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What about when remains rebuilders stubbornly try to rebuild something they can't yet (like due to energy) instead of finding a new thing to rebuild?
Or energy collector when the system is neutral (multiplayer only)
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New one (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,15136.0.html) :)
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I'd love a control option that said, "engineers and rebuilders suppress FRD when hostile units are present" (the harvesters ignore cloaked units toggle would then suppress the suppression for cloaked units).
Yes yes yes yes, please!
Having to manually re-enable and re-disable FRD on my engis after each wave is my least favorite bit of micro at the moment.