Author Topic: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!  (Read 11011 times)

Offline Diazo

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2013, 12:38:53 pm »
Heh.

2 out of my last 4 games, I've had 2 Co-Processors in systems adjacent to my homeworld.

Makes for a painful early expansion....

D.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2013, 02:18:30 pm »
Heh.

2 out of my last 4 games, I've had 2 Co-Processors in systems adjacent to my homeworld.

Makes for a painful early expansion....

D.

If you thought that was painful. Try this on for size.

I decide to start a new game. My last one keeping end up with an ugly end. (Final shard in bad place thread)

Tank/Support Corp 7/7 On Maze A 120 stars. I picked a nice spot with spire rams for tank AI. I plan to expand in one direction that branch into two trees that are both dead end with about 18 stars and 6 stars respectively. Sweet spot for choke hold for a Fallen Spire campaign right? WRONG.

I only can kill one AI command station without putting nasty blue AI forts with one mk 4 and mk 3 solar systems on alert. They both block my path in either direction. The mk 4 block the path to 94 other solar systems. Mk 3 block the sweet two branch trees. I have only manage to scout 10 solar systems so far. This will be a painful expansion trying to clear out a MK 4/MK 3 with tech 1 stuff solar system, with ONLY one solar system's research to boot, to get enough territory for a fallen spire campaign.  :(

So RNG is still working as intend and even more cruel if that was possible.  >D

Edit: OH I forget to mention that the Mk 3 that blocking my way to 24 branch? It has THREE counterattack warp guard. THREE!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 02:32:14 pm by Vyndicu »

Offline Hearteater

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2013, 02:19:26 pm »
So far my 8/8 Raid SS game is going well.  Missile and MLRS are annoying with their x6 multiplier though.  I'll post up a short AAR when I get a chance.  I've got it on 1 AIP/15 minutes just to keep myself honest :) .

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2013, 02:23:44 pm »
So far my 8/8 Raid SS game is going well.  Missile and MLRS are annoying with their x6 multiplier though.
Merely annoying?  I'd have expected them to turn "flight of the raids" into "turkey shoot" ;)  Well, good to have actual playtesting of that; predictions can be problematic.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2013, 03:05:46 pm »
Yeah, I have to do dedicated runs to take them out.  Most of the rest I can just shift-click to death and watch the fun while I eat my yogurt.  I'm just starting though, so I haven't done any Mark III or IV worlds yet.  Mark II Missile GPs one-shot Mark II Raid Starships, and one-shot Mark I.  However, a cap of I+II can take off half the GP's health and still get 2 Mark II's out of there.  So I some minor rebuilding to do and then I came back and finished it off losing another 2 Raid Starships.

Offline Marmu23

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2013, 04:49:00 pm »
You don't need to fight the fleet ships.  You ignore them.  Just kill the Guard Posts and run.  The ships are freed and will attack your system were your regular ships and turrets will kill them. 

I strongly suspect I could clear 8/8 using just Raid Starships (and support stuff like Transports, Engineers, Cloakers, etc) on offense until the homeworlds.  The hardest part would be the initial worlds when I just don't have the Raid Starships complete yet.  That's the only reason I'm hesitant to say its possible to do on 9/9.

TL;DR: Raid Starships are hilariously strong.

 It was certainly possible to clear most of the guardposts using raids+cloakers+mobile repairs, but that was exactly their point, they serve almost no over purpose! The downside was that it was slow and tedious conpared to blobbing, it was just another strategy. Now raids get 2 shot by one of the guard posts of equal mark and get significantly hurt by other posts, so even for cleanup duty while the blob if doing the general fighting its suboptimal to use them since they are so very expensive to replace.

 It is still possible to clear most posts with the same strategy of raids+bloakers+mobile repairs but losses have become so high that it`s not worth it as it takes too much time rebuilding. Even having the raids around with the blob only to take care of the ion cannons means i lost 1 or more for most planets past the first couple AI planets.

 Really, I'm not saying it`s really much harder, it just costs much more resources to clean up planets, losing half the fleet when a month ago i would have lost a quarter of the fleet to clean up the same planet. The net result is that i expect most complete games will take 15-20 hours rather than 10-12 hours.

edit:
Yeah, I have to do dedicated runs to take them out.  Most of the rest I can just shift-click to death and watch the fun while I eat my yogurt.  I'm just starting though, so I haven't done any Mark III or IV worlds yet.  Mark II Missile GPs one-shot Mark II Raid Starships, and one-shot Mark I.  However, a cap of I+II can take off half the GP's health and still get 2 Mark II's out of there.  So I some minor rebuilding to do and then I came back and finished it off losing another 2 Raid Starships.

 Minor rebuilding? It used to be possible to clear posts in ~10minutes including repairs and rebuilds using raids of equal mark. Now it's ~20 minutes for the same job because of much higher losses. Similarly for fleets, non eye non fort worlds were cleaned up in 5-10 minutes including rebuild costs by equal mark fleets, now it`s 10-15 minutes. It's fun the first 5 planets, but then i just alt-tabbed out a whole lot more.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 05:05:12 pm by Marmu23 »

Offline Diazo

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2013, 05:14:06 pm »
Interesting to see how other people handle things.

I would never have considered using raids as my primary offensive force. I realize your current AAR is more limiting then what you usually do Heart, but for all this talk about raids and taking out guard posts with them, I don't actually use them to do that.

The only conditions I really use raids are when there's something like an Ion Cannon under an FF I need to take out before bringing my main fleet in, or it is a high value target several systems out that the raids high speed allows them to reach without dying (although this is usually a one way trip for the raids.)

Using raids as the general attack force to take out guard posts? Not something I would have ever considered.

I think it is because of all the fleet ships that get put on to threat by this method. I don't know if it because I make a point of building heavy defenses, but that loose threat never comes through to my planet to be killed by my defenses. Rather, it waits until a wave hits and then joins in to ruin my day.

Letting threat build up to attack at the same time as a wave is one of the most common reasons I lose games actually. I've started building Riot I's just for their tractors so I can go threat hunting and drag the AI ships back to my fixed defenses to die.

Because I have to go back afterwards to clean threat up anyway, I prefer to use my main fleet if I can. That way the fleet ships at the guard posts die before they have a chance to get loose as threat.

Errr. Getting back to raid starships. I see them as raiders for taking out the occasional high-value targets, I do not see them as primary combatants. I suppose that colors what I expect them to do, and so what I argue for for balance purposes.

For instance, I'd be quite happy if Raids kept their current dps but went to a 30 second reload time. That would allow them to get in, one-shot almost anything, and run away. But from how other people use them, that would be an incredibly unpopular change (as I read the mood of the forums.)

D.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2013, 05:18:39 pm »
Yea, it appears to me that the Raid has three defining characteristics (in rough order of importance, descending) :

1) Can shoot through forcefields.
2) Is really, really fast.
3) Can generally take a fair bit of fire before it dies (there are obviously exceptions to this).

Generally I use them if there's something under an FF that I need dead, or if there's something multiple hops out that I want dead (Data Center, etc).  The Raid's survival is optional, though often possible.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2013, 07:09:33 pm »
Just to be clear, I believe using Raid Starships on Guard Posts is incorrect.  This would be like using a surgical scalpel to cut drywall.  Possible, but a very silly use of the incorrect tool for the job.  So for that reason, I can't understand why anyone even cares how Raids stack up to Guard Posts, since they never face them.  The only effect the Guard Post change has is if a high value target is right next to a Missile or MLRS, and even then the Raids will still take it out losing at most one ship.  In fact, this change makes Mark II/III Raids a bit more useful because there are a few situations every game where they would be a little more useful than Mark Is.

That being said, I'm doing an AAR with just Raids to prove that in their current state, even with buffed Guard Posts, they can single handedly win you the game.  Basically, they are OP and there is nothing to complain about.  In fact, they probably should get nerfed.  A lot.  I nearly never unlock Mark II+ Raids because 3 Mark Is can do insane stuff by themselves (don't even get me started on multi-homeworld abuse of Raid Is).

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2013, 07:23:14 pm »
Basically, they are OP and there is nothing to complain about.  In fact, they probably should get nerfed.

Heh. I've been of this opinion ever since they got their current stats, which was like a year and a half ago...
The only reason why people aren't complaining about it, I think, is because the AI version has half HP of the human version.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2013, 07:53:19 pm »
I think they're OP in the same way basic fighters are. An established part of the game, that doesn't have a negative impact on gameplay.

You could take just fighters to conquer planets, for example.
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2013, 08:03:22 pm »
I'll let you do that AAR :) . Although one difference is Raids get broken on multi-homeworld.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2013, 08:08:29 pm »
Quote
I'll let you do that AAR . :)
No.  :)

Quote
Although one difference is Raids get broken on multi-homeworld.
I'm pretty sure everything is broken multi-homeworld.

Now, about that regen golem...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 08:18:56 pm by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2013, 10:55:54 pm »
If higher mark guard posts are proving to be too strong attack wise (It is too soon to tell right now, but just in case it is found to be such), why not a non-standard, sub-linear mark relationship?
Maybe like for Mk. I/II/III/IV/V, have 1x/2x/2.5x/3x/3.5x or 1x/2x/2.75x/3.5x/4x or 1x/2x/2.75x/3.25x/3.5x or something like that? Just for the guard posts though, due to their unusual role in the game.

Offline Diazo

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Re: AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2013, 11:02:08 pm »
Erm.

Quote
Fixed a bug in the previous version where the AI could get a single (non-respawning) offensive nemesis champion even if the human players had no champions.

More details please? I just ran into a Shadow Frigate in my fallen spire game where both AI types are not Heroic and I have no champion.

This is on 6.012.

It looks the saved game I loaded was saved in 6.011, did I just not play long enough on 6.011 to run into this? I am currently in a save-scum cycle trying to build my spire city so not a lot of game time is passing at the moment.

D.