AI War Beta 6.012 "Darkened Sky, Altered Starship" Released!

[Lancefighter]

What? Thats silly. Thats not how I suggest fixes.. I have to make kneejerk reactions despite having not played the game in a few months, then demand that starships get huge buffs.

[keith.lamothe]

I guess the question is what people want out of starships compared to fleet ships. Would you rather have extreme cap durability compared to fleet ships, or only somewhat better cap durability? How much cap DPS are you willing to pay for that durability?

One thing I'm going on now is that generally speaking it doesn't work balance wise to "pay" for DPS with durability, or vice versa.  The two attributes are just really different in how they impact the game.  DPS is generally what people really care about, durability is more of a tactical flexibility thing.  Obviously you need a certain amount of total HP to effectively wade into a big fight, but it's the damage that wins the day.

So with the new starship balance I'm basically taking the position that "you pay knowledge for the DPS, and you pay m+c/e for the HP".

[Diazo]

As one of those trying to keep things away from the paying dps for durability, the biggest reason it does not work is that as you get into the late game and the AI planets have a lot of units, any unit, even a high mark starship, has a low life expectancy.

That's the biggest reason fleet ships win in the late game, I can send a couple hundred fleet ships in and have them die like flies, but output decent damage.

Or I can send in a few starships that don't die quite as quick individually but their damage output sucks.

For now, we'll see how this new balance on them works out.

D.

[Faulty Logic]

as you get into the late game and the AI planets have a lot of units, any unit, even a high mark starship

Grr, forum interface.
Many people have said this, but I've never hit this issue.

[Diazo]

Huh.

I guess the definition of "lots" varies, but I've certainly never been able to just throw a starship fleet at something and expect it to come back intact in the late game. (In general, sometimes I can get away with it.)

Waiting to get my hands on these latest changes still, I'll see how it goes then.

D.

[LaughingThesaurus]

If you have fleet ships come in with the starships, won't the enemies focus their DPS on killing the most of your units as efficiently as possible? The fleet ships indirectly protect the starships in that sense. It's been like ages since I've played, but I thought that was how the targeting logic worked.

[keith.lamothe]

If you have fleet ships come in with the starships, won't the enemies focus their DPS on killing the most of your units as efficiently as possible? The fleet ships indirectly protect the starships in that sense. It's been like ages since I've played, but I thought that was how the targeting logic worked.

It's possible for some enemies to decide to focus down the starships (due to hull bonuses or whatever) but yea, I think the starships would often be among the last folks standing, simply because the fleet ships are easier targets.

[LaughingThesaurus]

I just wasn't sure if the AI targeting preferred kills or the most expensive kill or the most damaging kill or what.
So in that case, you have the fleet ships that are like a big brick made of styrofoam that the enemies stomp on until it's reduced to nothing, and then you have the slightly tougher styrofoam in the starships that run away when everyone else is dead.

[barryvm]

Just tried the new starships in a new game and it seems starships also have become cheaper so the can be produced and replaced faster and losing a few is less costly than it used to be.
Overall the strategic choices have expanded as you can now unlock more of the higher mk's according to your needs even in the early game without investing a significant part of your knowledge. Overall I think the changes make the starships more interesting and make for more strategic choices, though I agree with the suggestion some of them should get more fleet support capabilities.

[chemical_art]

Not sure if intentional, but the guardpost with lasers has a bonus against polycrystal, but is heavy itself

[Winge]

Not sure if intentional, but the guardpost with lasers has a bonus against polycrystal, but is heavy itself

MLRS and Missile are the same way.  The first has a bonus against Light, but it is Medium, meaning Fighters take heavy losses.  Missile is Artillery, but has a bonus against Polycrystal--again, Bombers would take heavy damage.  I would kind of prefer it to not be that way (especially with the HP & damage buff), but I don't consider it horrible to deal with.  AI forcefields are universally more annoying.

[Fluffiest]

Now I'm really not sure what role the Heavy Bomber Starship is meant to fill.

[Lancefighter]

it was supposed to be a ... short range siege starship for the most part

Unfortunately, it never actually filled that role particularly well, because the siege starship was so damn good. They used to be really evil at murdering home command stations before you knew they were there though

[keith.lamothe]

Honestly the Siege and the Bomber starship shouldn't both be basic starships; the Bomber was made normal after the old Dread's transformation into the Siege (those two changes were made by two separate developers without coordination), which then displaced the Siege into being the Anti-usefulAntimatter starship.  When the latter came back as the Plasma Siege it bumped the Bomber back out, etc.

We'll figure something out.  For now the heavy bomber starship is just a gun.  It's not one you want to be on the wrong side of, mind you, but just a gun.

[Faulty Logic]

A really simple change would be to restore its ability to hit fleetships. Then its a decent brawler or raider, but not as good as the dedicated ships (zenith and raid, respectively).