Author Topic: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!  (Read 8162 times)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 09:59:14 pm »
Edit: See the linked screenshots. Is that intended Chris? That hurt :)

I did once had a fleet of my own ..
Run Forrest, run!!

Were they freed as part of a cross planet attack? If so, I don't think there are any sort of caps on the number of low-cap fleet ships freed in cross planet attacks (well, other than max per planet * number of AI planets * 5 (one for each mark) in the very worst case).

Or are those zombified? How did that happen, considering that Spire blade spawners are immune to reclamation?

Offline Invelios

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2011, 12:07:11 am »
They where spawned in the Anti-Mark III science lab attack, it looks like. I'm pretty sure all units that spawn in those attacks are zombies, otherwise you could exploit that and parasite lots of units, or use a botnet to get near-infinite zombies of your own.

Offline Red Spot

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2011, 12:31:50 pm »
They where spawned in the Anti-Mark III science lab attack, it looks like. I'm pretty sure all units that spawn in those attacks are zombies, otherwise you could exploit that and parasite lots of units, or use a botnet to get near-infinite zombies of your own.

Thats it. Botnet golems also rule vs zombies though, 20m damage per shot, 50 shots a salvo, a salvo each 2 sec. Thats 100 dead AI in 4sec :)

However I had 2 Botnet golems, 2 Armored golems, 1.2k zombified ships (about 1/3 mk4), and a small complement of my own fleetship .. and was attacking an mk2-planet. They totally wasted me and I only managed to take the blade spawners down on my own terf, with some very .. ehhmm .. human methods of employing Martyrs, grav turrets(build some deadcenter in between the blade spawner, difficult but if you can keep them up you neutralize entire groups) and keeping the Armored golems in action even though they could die any sec. Never before did I underestimate the situation at hand as much as it turned out, in AIW at least :)
The only things that I managed to get of the planet where the 4 golems and the botnet ones only survived cause I send them away the moment they started to take damage, and still only made it of the planet with ~30% health.

Offline Orelius

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2011, 12:34:11 pm »
Really?  I thought zombies couldn't be reclaimed and botnet golems couldn't attack reclaim-immune ships. 

Offline Red Spot

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2011, 12:38:22 pm »
They can attack ships that can 'normally' be reclaimed ;)
(Thats means any 'regular zombie' can be attacked by the Botnets.)

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2011, 04:31:45 pm »
They can attack ships that can 'normally' be reclaimed ;)
(Thats means any 'regular zombie' can be attacked by the Botnets.)

Thank god they can. A single botnet makes taking out AI eyes so much easier.

Offline Giegue

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2011, 04:59:18 pm »
is it just me, or do the fallen spire ships still have no icons? some of them are still grey blocks.

Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2011, 05:01:28 pm »
They all have icons.  You probably need to install the expansion from the installer; if you missed the last few beta versions, then you wouldn't have all the images.  And if you never installed the full version of the expansion from the installer, then you also don't have the new music.  No big thing, though; you can install it right on top of your existing installation, and it will just straighten out what you're missing and that's that!
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2011, 01:09:37 am »
I guess this is as good a place to ask as any, since I found out from the release notes, mostly, but can someone give me something like an executive summary version of what was wrong with blade spawners and why they were changed the way they were?  I never played with the expansion during the pre-5.0 betas, and in the time since then, I've only gotten blade spawners of my own a couple times and never faced an AI that had them, so I don't know first-hand what they were like.

They do seem like they'd be fairly brutal if there were dozens of them at once, with the sheer amount of hp they have and the amount of damage they can do from a distance, but as a human player who can't just reinforce with an arbitrary number of them, they seemed decent but not amazing in the 5.0 release, and now they're kind of underwhelming/uninspiring after the total cap number has been nerfed in more recent betas.

Having half a dozen of them around doesn't suck or anything, but for the amount of time and resources it takes to build them, they feel less useful now than some of the other options, whether it's a different bonus ship type or unlocking another starship or two with the knowledge.  I think part of it is that it's really, really hard to keep incoming waves of ships at a great enough distance for long enough for them to be effective when playing with 5-6 people, because of the massive numbers of ships coming in when you only have a couple available choke points for them to be sent to (and it's even harder when using them offensively because of the speed multipliers in enemy vs. allied systems).  I mean, we have a gravity drill (that's the one that drops all ships to speed 8, right?), a full cap of sniper and missile turrets, and three mk2 fortresses in one system, along with smaller numbers of other things, and that doesn't even stop a typical wave of 2000 ships from making it at least halfway across the system.  A handful of blade spawners hardly even makes a noticeable difference against the numbers we're usually facing.

Offline superking

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2011, 02:28:06 am »
One day I hope to AI reinforcements will become proportional to the shipcaps. (that is, one shipcap 2 unit considered to have the same value as fifty shipcap 100 units for purposes of 'choosing' reinforcements.) I dont see any other way off balancing it, and it certainly isnt balanced at the moment (AIs with large, low shipcap unlocks are much dangerous than AIs with tiny, large shipcap unlocks.)

Offline Nalgas

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2011, 05:33:28 am »
(AIs with large, low shipcap unlocks are much dangerous than AIs with tiny, large shipcap unlocks.)

Speaking of which, and answering my own question, I was bored and started a single-player game, which I haven't done in months, and the very first thing I run into is a Spireline AI with blade spawners and tractor platforms and all that fun stuff.  I still don't know how to use blade spawners properly if they're my own, but now I see why they (and all the other spire ships) are to be feared if the AI has a bunch of them.  On the plus side, single-player is finally pretty exciting with everything trying to kill me and eat me constantly.  Heh.

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2011, 07:47:06 am »
I think Blade Spawners are still awesome. I select them often as my starting bonus ship. Build a couple of them, send them with a fleet through a wormhole and watch those blades eat through lots of ships and guardposts while your fleet cleans it off. The spawners itself can attack too and with their large amount of hp they can survive a lot. Wouldn't be the first time my entire fleet got destroyed at a Mark IV planet and only my blade spawners made it out alive. Full cap of Mark I, II and III blade spawners can spawn huge numbers in a short time. Great for keeping enemy ships busy also.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2011, 10:14:40 am »
One day I hope to AI reinforcements will become proportional to the shipcaps. (that is, one shipcap 2 unit considered to have the same value as fifty shipcap 100 units for purposes of 'choosing' reinforcements.) I dont see any other way off balancing it, and it certainly isnt balanced at the moment (AIs with large, low shipcap unlocks are much dangerous than AIs with tiny, large shipcap unlocks.)
Well, they already do multiply the actual reinforcement quantity by the shipcap, in basically the same way that waves do.  Reinforcements are also limited by per-planet and per-guard-post AI-only shipcaps, though only the particularly huge fleet ships have those caps.

So what are you looking for and not finding?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2011, 10:20:13 am »
I guess this is as good a place to ask as any, since I found out from the release notes, mostly, but can someone give me something like an executive summary version of what was wrong with blade spawners and why they were changed the way they were?
The executive summary is that "They were massively Overpowered for both human and AI.  Particularly AI." 

They have seen a bunch of consecutive nerfs because people kept sending in complaints, so it's likely that they could stand a boost in individual stats, I'm kinda waiting on broader feedback on that one (and want to make sure the various caps are working as intended).  For the time being, a somewhat-underpowered unit has much less game-damaging effect than a significantly overpowered one.
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: AI War Beta 5.010, "Blade Shield," Released!
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2011, 01:50:17 pm »
They have seen a bunch of consecutive nerfs because people kept sending in complaints, so it's likely that they could stand a boost in individual stats, I'm kinda waiting on broader feedback on that one (and want to make sure the various caps are working as intended).  For the time being, a somewhat-underpowered unit has much less game-damaging effect than a significantly overpowered one.

My anecdotal contribution to that is that as a player ship, they're fun, but I find myself leaving them as one of the last things to rebuild a full cap of after an attack wipes out half my fleet.  Now that I've played against the AI using them for several hours, they were a bit intimidating at first when I could only spare 75-100 ships (with normal caps) to send into a system, because a couple blade spawners by themselves could take out a decent chunk of them before I was even in range.  Once I got a bunch of mk2 ships and could send in larger groups, they've pretty much become a non-threat and get completely mowed down.

Seeing a few of them heading my way is actually a relief, because it means they're not tractor platforms or stealth battleships or maws, all of which are much more disruptive.  I expected to be afraid of the blade spawners from what everyone else has been saying, but it's the tractor platforms that are truly terrifying, when three of them pop up in the middle of a couple hundred ships and suddenly most of my fleet is drifting off to its doom.  It's very, very satisfying to pop one inches away from getting sucked through a wormhole to an unfriendly planet, though.  Heh.

Edit: Also, this is my first time doing the Fallen Spire storyline, because I got sick of waiting for my co-op group to get around to it, and I'm liking the craziness so far.  Plenty of "what the heck is that oh crap we're all gonna die" moments on a regular basis, which is always fun.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 01:57:42 pm by Nalgas »