AI War Beta 4.055, "Intra-Galactic," Released!

[Fleet]

Signata, I just wanted to confirm that you are making use of the auto-build options for engineers and remains rebuilders.

[TechSY730]

So, mobile military firepower is still a bit wierd - I had an AI Fortress II on a tier IV that contributed about 29k firepower to the system. Yes, it was tough (200 million health can be a bit of a problem when you've only got tier II bombers) but really? The rest of the system firepower only added another 5k, despite 200-300 tier IV ships being present (an arguably far greater threat to tier II ships, since this was still pretty early game). It seems the huge amount of health continues to overstate the actual threat to attacking fleets. Fortresses are great, but only over time - if you get in close enough with your bombers and are willing to sacrifice a few ships you can usually deal with them fairly easily.

I'm beginning to think that the amount of firepower a ship's max HP adds should be a sub-linear relationship. More simply put, the more max HP a ship has, the less extra firepower an additional max HP point should give. Logarithmic should be the most obvious choice. This should give the desired effect of huge HP ships not have overwhelming firepower, but still allow max HP to help separate the firepower of fragile and durable fleet ships.

[Signata]

Oh yes, though I suppose I could make better use of the planet based auto-build amount in these cases, though this would still require a little care and attention. If you add another dock you'll need to remember to increment the auto-build amount by however many engineers you assign (I don't let them gang up on build assists as it makes the economy too unpredictable for my taste).

That aside, I was just wondering if something has changed with engineers to make them weaker or "braver".

[TechSY730]

Oh yes, though I suppose I could make better use of the planet based auto-build amount in these cases, though this would still require a little care and attention. If you add another dock you'll need to remember to increment the auto-build amount by however many engineers you assign (I don't let them gang up on build assists as it makes the economy too unpredictable for my taste).

That aside, I was just wondering if something has changed with engineers to make them weaker or "braver".

Other than taking more damage on enemy planets, I don't think so. Then again, the targeting logic has been messed around a bit in recent versions. IIRC, ships are now more likely to pay attention to armor bonuses when choosing a target. This could be why engineers seem to die more often, things that are good against neutron (which engineers have) are now targeting engineers more often.

[ShadowOTE]

I'm beginning to think that the amount of firepower a ship's max HP adds should be a sub-linear relationship. More simply put, the more max HP a ship has, the less extra firepower an additional max HP point should give. Logarithmic should be the most obvious choice. This should give the desired effect of huge HP ships not have overwhelming firepower, but still allow max HP to help separate the firepower of fragile and durable fleet ships.

I was thinking something similar. Maybe have a log scaling system that maxes based on ship tier, and custom values/tier 5 status for things like superfortresses?

[TechSY730]

I was thinking something similar. Maybe have a log scaling system that maxes based on ship tier, and custom values/tier 5 status for things like superfortresses?

I think that may be a little too complicated. A logarithmic relationship with properly chosen parameters should already separate the various "tiers of magnitude" of max HP between the various ships to a reasonable degree.

[Fleet]

(I don't let them gang up on build assists as it makes the economy too unpredictable for my taste).

I find the "do not assist queue" option great. I then only change engineers accelerating docks when my resources start dropping to fast, or my reserves just keep increasing. Its very low maintenance, but I can still safely keep a good number of engineers around for repairing large fleets.

I know I'm not commenting on your main issue with engineer movement logic / braveness, I'm just not sure on this one...waiting to hear back from the devs after break.

I don't seem to mind rebuilding engies each time, but my friend did. I set his rebuilders to an FRD point as far away from the turrets as possible. If the AI ships are killed fast enough, then the engies/rebuilders don't arrive on scene until the threat has been greatly diminished. This meant that there was a bit of a delay in their response, but they also had less AI ships targeting them once they got close to the turrets. Hope this tip helps.

[ShadowOTE]

I was thinking something similar. Maybe have a log scaling system that maxes based on ship tier, and custom values/tier 5 status for things like superfortresses?

I think that may be a little too complicated. A logarithmic relationship with properly chosen parameters should already separate the various "tiers of magnitude" of max HP between the various ships to a reasonable degree.

Meh, whatever works - as long as the end result is some sort of sane approach to firepower calculations I'll be happy. That said, you will need exceptions - things like devourer golems would probably justify 30+k threat, simply for their ability to eat entire fleets of non-core ships and the fact that only a few weapons can really drive them off/kill them.

[TechSY730]

I think that may be a little too complicated. A logarithmic relationship with properly chosen parameters should already separate the various "tiers of magnitude" of max HP between the various ships to a reasonable degree.

Meh, whatever works - as long as the end result is some sort of sane approach to firepower calculations I'll be happy. That said, you will need exceptions - things like devourer golems would probably justify 30+k threat, simply for their ability to eat entire fleets of non-core ships and the fact that only a few weapons can really drive them off/kill them.

Although the huge firepower and crazy HP of the devourer golem should take care of most of that, even with the logarithmic scaling. However, you bring up a good point. The current firepower system does not properly take into consideration certain dangerous abilities, such as in this case, vamperism. The damage output of the devourer golem would be pretty high even without vamperism. With it, it becomes a lot more dangerous. The firepower should reflect that, and it currently does not consider that very important ability.

Basically, vamperism artificially expands its HP, the amount of "extra effective HP" it gives depends on the strength of the weapon. Firepower should reflect that. (I know it is not easy to figure out the precise values. But firepower is a tricky concept to nail down to begin with. When the devs added this mechanic, they asked for this complexity.  )

[Signata]

I find the "do not assist queue" option great. I then only change engineers accelerating docks when my resources start dropping to fast, or my reserves just keep increasing. Its very low maintenance, but I can still safely keep a good number of engineers around for repairing large fleets.

Right, I'm in the same camp, and usually I research Mk.II Engineers purely for FRD duty; leaving all of the Mk.I's for static build boosting assignments. The greater range on the Mk.II helps keep them out of harm's way, and their faster repair rates means they can shove off quicker.

I set his rebuilders to an FRD point as far away from the turrets as possible. If the AI ships are killed fast enough, then the engies/rebuilders don't arrive on scene until the threat has been greatly diminished. This meant that there was a bit of a delay in their response, but they also had less AI ships targeting them once they got close to the turrets. Hope this tip helps.

Interesting idea, though having them so far away they can't get there in time for emergency repairs would make me a bit nervous. I manipulate FRD "home" points all of the time to optimise their movements, but never thought of putting them in the Oort clouds.

I think what techsy730 points out is the "change" I'm seeing, though. It's not that the engineers are really doing anything different, it's that the AI now takes pot shots at them whenever possible, even if they are under fire from military units.

[ShadowOTE]

Although the huge firepower and crazy HP of the devourer golem should take care of most of that, even with the logarithmic scaling. However, you bring up a good point. The current firepower system does not properly take into consideration certain dangerous abilities, such as in this case, vamperism. The damage output of the devourer golem would be pretty high even without vamperism. With it, it becomes a lot more dangerous. The firepower should reflect that, and it currently does not consider that very important ability.

Basically, vamperism artificially expands its HP, the amount of "extra effective HP" it gives depends on the strength of the weapon. Firepower should reflect that. (I know it is not easy to figure out the precise values. But firepower is a tricky concept to nail down to begin with. When the devs added this mechanic, they asked for this complexity.  )

Yeah, pretty much. I'm keeping an eye out for it in my current game - I think it's enabled, but haven't seen it yet. Should be interesting to see what it does to system firepower.

[Salamander]

I just started new game with the current patch late last night and I've found an odd behavior with my FRD Engineers. Several of the attacking AI Neinzul ships went all over the place causing havoc with my harvesters but even after getting them all rebuilt and giving my Engineers FRD orders repeatedly, several of them fly to already completely repaired harvesters and just sit there. I've reloaded the game and told them several times to FRD at various spots around my home system and they do fly to the point, but then some immediately fly to back to the harvesters and sit.  They all have the pink outline as normal.

[BigJake]

I just started new game with the current patch late last night and I've found an odd behavior with my FRD Engineers. Several of the attacking AI Neinzul ships went all over the place causing havoc with my harvesters but even after getting them all rebuilt and giving my Engineers FRD orders repeatedly, several of them fly to already completely repaired harvesters and just sit there. I've reloaded the game and told them several times to FRD at various spots around my home system and they do fly to the point, but then some immediately fly to back to the harvesters and sit.  They all have the pink outline as normal.

I've seen this happen as well.  The engineers sit around the harvester, "assisting" it although it looks 100% healthy and functional.  The tooltip does show resources being pumped into it and the engineers will move on to other business when they've pumped in enough to pay for the harvester.  In other words, the engineers are building the thing, but for some reason it shows as fully functional and 100% healthy from the get-go.

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