AI War Beta 3.708, "The Salve," Released

[Lancefighter]

well thats the problem - I only ever used them with my starship fleets anyway. of course, i /needed/ all 5 of them:

Fleet starships (The Fleet) need their veil
Siege Squadron usually operates independently of The Fleet, needs their own
Siege Support Task Force requires one so they can operate independantly of the Siege Squadron, in case they need to be positioned someplace for defense
Transport Corps needs cloak for moving stuff through hostile space, or just for hiding so hybrids dont shoot at them
Enclave Construction Corps requires a cloak so they dont get shot up by the first fighter that looks at them weird

thats 5. I had 5. I liked 5. Now I have three, at increased cost. Hugely inflated cost.

[x4000]

Well, I felt like the cloakers were a bit OP when used correctly, but that even when used effectively the higher-mark ones weren't being used.  Now you can only have 3, but they can do more when used together, etc.

[Lancefighter]

to be fair, I propose the following:

AI War is a game about using what you unlock correctly. Of course things are powerful when used properly, because thats the whole reason for unlocking them.

if your issue is that the benefit provided by cloaker starships at higher levels wasnt great enough, all I can say on that matter is that I never had enough ships to warrant the unlocking of higher mk cloaker starships. None of my groups got past ~30 units (with The Fleet generally being highest around 20)

The age old 'spending knowledge to get more shipcap' is what you have done here instead: youve made it a matter of merely spending knowledge to get more, not to get better ones.

[x4000]

The age old 'spending knowledge to get more shipcap' is what you have done here instead: youve made it a matter of merely spending knowledge to get more, not to get better ones.

Yep, that's pretty much it.  Also, you do get better ones as you unlock more, but... yep.

[Lancefighter]

The age old 'spending knowledge to get more shipcap' is what you have done here instead: youve made it a matter of merely spending knowledge to get more, not to get better ones.

Yep, that's pretty much it.  Also, you do get better ones as you unlock more, but... yep.

but.. youv.... youve usually been against such things in the past? I thought at least..

i just dont see it :\ if you wanted to make people unlock the higher ones, change the shipscaps to 1/3/5 or something (mk1/mk2/mk3) - what youve basically done here is decreased the effectiveness multiple small groups of independent units in favor of a single large group.. or, just not really using cloaker starships at all.

Honestly, I'm not sure if spending 3k knowledge for 3 of them is worth unlocking any more. Maybe the one mk1 for my ultrafragile Construction Corps..

*shrug*

edit: I've gotta run to class.. but...

A lot of the changes youve made have completely changed the face of the game. For the moment, I dont know if thats good or bad or what, but honestly, I'm not sure what direction AI war is going in. At the moment, it just seems like your taking out walls and floors and ceilings for no real reason 

[x4000]

I'd already changed my mind and decided to make it 2/2/2 for them, so you can get your requisite 5 cloakers.

I don't recall ever having been opposed to "spending knowledge to get more ship cap" in the sense of what is done here -- that's arguably a fundamental premise of the game.  Spending knowledge to get more ship cap in the sense of "20% more fighters in general" above what already is allotted for fighters is something really different.

I'll ignore the jibe about taking out walls and floors for no reason.  While I appreciate that all of my plans and changes aren't going to be entirely clear to anyone but myself (and to some extent Keith) yet, rest assured that I'm not making changes without reason.

[keith.lamothe]

I'd already changed my mind and decided to make it 2/2/2 for them, so you can get your requisite 5 cloakers.

You're nicer than I am, I would have done 1/2/2

[x4000]

Heh, well, I'm not always the nicer one.

New one: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,7307.0.html

[Lancefighter]

Well, what I'm saying is exactly that: while they may have a reason, for the moment it just seems like making wild changes without reason. I don't mean for it to sound offensive, jus stating the way I've seen it.
Might I propose that you make it more evident? Give some Dort of mission statement, some picture of where you are trying to go?

[x4000]

I'm working 16 hour days as it is, and trying to figure out the actual implementation of certain things as I go.  I'm also not wanting to state certain things in case it doesn't work out.  Doing the best I can, and we're nearing the end, anyhow.

[Lancefighter]

Very well.. I shall do my best to not argue too much until I can share your vision..

[TheMachineIsSentient]

Why not wait until the next major release before we start talking about balance, Lance? Actually think this could be a good idea, as it seems like we are moving away from giant blobs of doom towards something a little bit different. And it's not like you don't have a couple installs, right? :-)

I'm going to wait until unity release major version, and then I will jump in the pool and see how it plays out.

[x4000]

We're actually really happy to have all the feedback and comments in the meantime.  Really, really happy and grateful for that.

[Lancefighter]

Why not wait until the next major release before we start talking about balance, Lance? Actually think this could be a good idea, as it seems like we are moving away from giant blobs of doom towards something a little bit different. And it's not like you don't have a couple installs, right? :-)

I'm going to wait until unity release major version, and then I will jump in the pool and see how it plays out.

Because the less established a change is, the easier it is to change again. I understand that nothing is final yet, but sometimes some change just touches the wrong nerve (and you saw how much i used those cloaker starships >.> )
I honestly dont know how effective my fleet would be sans the element of surprise, especially when picking off hybrids. (and in the latest release, i certainly need all the help i can get killing hybrids ^^)

[x4000]

Yep, that's a big part of it -- hearing about how people with varying play styles use all the various ships.  It's a balancing act to try to please as many people as possible while making sure that everything is useful and sane to use, etc.