Author Topic: Engineer Acceleration Efficiency  (Read 1761 times)

Offline Fleet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
Engineer Acceleration Efficiency
« on: August 22, 2011, 03:37:13 pm »
I'm interested in how people manage their production facilities and engineers. I'm a little unclear on what constitutes efficient use of resources, regarding the acceleration of ship production time (meaning resources for a given ship stop being drained earlier), but increased cost (each second a ship is in production, although less seconds in total, costs more per second).

So...is it helpful to actually stack 2 engineers on a single space dock? Or is there some diminishing return that means, overall, i get more efficient use of my resources if I have two space docks, each with one engie. I'm not so concerned about which scenario spits out ships the fastest, just which one gets me the best value for my resources (I imagine the answer is either multiple spacedocks with no engies, multiple spacedocks with one engie each, or multiple spacedocks with some number of engies greater than 1 each, before building another dock.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Engineer Acceleration Efficiency
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2011, 03:39:14 pm »
Regardless of how many engineers are helping a space dock, a fighter that costs 100m and 100c will always cost exactly 100m and 100c (it changes based on unit cap scale, but is constant within one game).  The only difference is the rate of outflow.

Is that what you were asking?
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Engineer Acceleration Efficiency
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 03:43:41 pm »
I think he means that if engineers cost X in resources, and you're using them on a space dock that is not getting any benefit from their being there, that that's a waste of the resources of the engineer.

The answer is kind of complex; it depends on what you are producing.  If the thing you are producing is very expensive and has a low rate of build/repair, like starships or golems or spirecraft, then you can put dozens of engineers on there and all of them will be working at peak efficiency.

However, the maximum output from a space dock is 1 ship for every two game turns, so at the default network skip settings that's 1 ship for every 400ish milliseconds.  So, 2.2 ships per second.

If you stack engineers beyond that threshold for a ship that is cheap and quick to produce, then the extra engineers aren't doing anything and the space dock winds up waiting for part of each 400ms cycle, with the engineers still costing you energy but not costing you actual construction costs (same with the space dock) since they are just sitting there.  Generally with most ships, 2-3 engineers on a space dock is not a waste, although it will be overkill every time something like Fighter Is come up in the queue.  But only a waste briefly, and in terms of energy of the engineers not being ideally distributed for that brief time.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Engineer Acceleration Efficiency
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 03:47:34 pm »
If you stack engineers beyond that threshold for a ship that is cheap and quick to produce, then the extra engineers aren't doing anything and the space dock winds up waiting for part of each 400ms cycle, with the engineers still costing you energy but not costing you actual construction costs (same with the space dock) since they are just sitting there.
Looking at the code, Engies I/II/III have zero energy cost; I think you changed it to that to prevent "stuck" situations.

But yea, the "cannot produce ships faster than X" rule is critical for making engie-stacking decisions.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Engineer Acceleration Efficiency
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 03:48:59 pm »
Oh, that's right, I forgot about that.  The other reason I changed it was because people were really stressing about the math about optimal engies per dock, too. ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Fleet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
Re: Engineer Acceleration Efficiency
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 04:21:31 pm »
Haha, four dev responses to my inquiry, in such a short time frame.

<333333333 gawd you devs are awesome. I'll make it a point to talk up AI War to a few people once Fall quarter starts.

x4000, that really clears things up, that the absolute cost does not change. Thank you Keith, as well.

Offline Commiesalami

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
Re: Engineer Acceleration Efficiency
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 04:23:48 pm »
In the beginning of the game its more efficient to make a couple of space docks instead of a few engineers to help your original space dock.  This is due to the fact that both Space Docks and Mk1 engineers build/help at the same rate.  And that Space Docks are considerably cheaper than engineers.

Though this bonus is kinda a wash after the first wave is done.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Engineer Acceleration Efficiency
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 04:25:13 pm »
Glad we could help!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!