Author Topic: Suggestions & tips for dominating  (Read 3655 times)

Offline Axiom

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Suggestions & tips for dominating
« on: December 25, 2009, 07:25:32 am »
First off, merry christmas / whichever holiday applicable everyone!

I've been looking at AI War quite a bit, and had various thoughts about it crop up.

It's a bit jumbled, but I'll try to sort it a little bit. Bear with me. The following came from playing an AI level 7 game. AI autoprogress interval was set pretty low at 1 every 30 minutes(I play more "alongside other stuff" due to the easily switchable nature of the game).


I. UI Enhancement ideas:

Macros / layouts
What I mean is that obviously almost every player ends up chucking tons of turrets around wormholes. Why not allow the player to save 3-5 "setups" of "turret blobs", which he can save / load as he wants.
Example: a 4 concentric ring circle of laser, basic and MLR turrets and at the core tractor beams, 5 of each. I place them, mark them, click on "Save as Turret Layour Nr 1", then get a button for that, then click on that, then click the second wormhole in the system, and voila, the same configuration once more, "stamped" on the wormhole.
Repeat as wanted and vary as wanted with the other remaining layouts.

A sub-version of this would be base layouts (Example: Base is placed manually, then Power Plant I+II+Space Dock+2 Engineers Mark II placed via Preset Layout, also again a Turret Layout).
If you want to add an interesting sub-feature, make the layouts rotateable by 90 degree increments before confirming placement.

Same idea for ships would be formations, i.e. after one arranges ones ship blobs in a way, have the same layout save option and 90 degree rotation/orientation option.

Not that I use ships anymore, and that leads to the second bit...



II. Strategy

First and foremost, the most important mantra you must realize and understand:

There is no resource other than one resource, and that resource is energy.

That's right. The other two, metal and crystals, may SEEM important, but they are not.
They are in essence just a "delay" function for how long you must wait if you really screw up to build again, but only energy is THE capping function for your ships.
Again: ENERGY will decide how many ships/turrets you can field and steal, so it means EVERYTHING.
This will also make the decision to place MK III power plants that much easier. If all planets you own already have I and II, then yes, place IIIs until you can build all you want. No more thought wasted. I have found I still make 80-160 resources per second even with IIIs and barely any home planets.


Infrastructure: Engineers Mk II are a must. They can instantly go anywhere. Not just on one planet, but ACROSS SYSTEMS. What's more, they accelerate ship production insanely well while scaling modestly in cost. I don't feel that hot about the MK III yet.
This is one of the first upgrades I get.
They also replace repair ships, help in fortifying new planets, etc. They are insanely useful, even with the 3 second no-touch-no-repair rule.



This leads rather neatly into the actual

Attack strategies:
As people have already found and pointed out, Starships are god. The first unlocks before ANYTHING else should be Engineer II and the Raid Starship.
ASAP after that, Leech Starship and eventually the Flag/Zenith.

Here is why:
Raid Starships, even completely on their own, can take down MK IV planets. Sure, they will suffer a bit, will need a bit of micro and should retreat a few times after taking out a guard station to repair in the jump-in-system(keep engineers ready there, I set all to RMB+V Free Roaming Defender all the time), but they WILL take out the complete system without a hitch, no other ship needed.
And if you do lose one, they are quite cheap and fast to build compared to what they can do.
You can madly accelerate build time with 6-10 engineers. I've seen no build time above 10 minutes on any starship this way and some built in less than 5.



Raiding
If you rather tech up first, do "research raiding":
Take all built raid starships, jump into a system, clear out the warp point(10-20 seconds..), jump in the research ship(s). Be aware that on higher level planets the warpfield reinforcements might be strong enough to insta-kill the research ship, so either seperate a guard and escort and move away a bit or just be aware of it and build some more research ships until you get all your knowledge.

You can bring along engineers as well if you like, but usually the snipers make it harder to repair much, so I just jump back out/in for a few seconds to repair.

Once you get Leech Starships, you will do the same for both knowledge raiding and system crushing, but you will bring along more engineers as you can now do a real beachhead approach of jumping in, converting all units and turrets via LS and then putting 2 engineers and 1 LS to a warppoint, while the remaining LS and Raiders clear out the place. This will not just keep the warppoints clear, but can also allow you to "chain through" 1-2 systems without a problem just using some engineers and LS, while your motherships / scouts shuttle through unmolested. I have permaharassed an unowned system for ages with 2 LS and 6 engineers, just to see how well it'd keep up. Think it was a MK III; it worked basically forever as long as you replaced engineers occassionally.

As for all the unecessary normal ships, I just use those to bolster normal defenses, as inevitably when taking out planets some leftover units escape into the wormhole from which I attack.



Bolstering the fleet
Now LS and Raid Starships are great for turrets and stations, but they do have low hitpoints(1.3M) and can be rushed if not managed well. That's where the first tier ship oriented starships come in. At 3 and 7 million hitpoints, the Flagships and Zenith are quite useful, although the Zenith is definitely nicer, both for the 7M HP as well as for it's increased ship support range. If you ever want a bit of fire support, you can just let some MK I+II missile cruisers tag along, who then get their attack boosted to 3-5 times their original, just due to starship proximity.
They still don't last very long, but they do sensible damage while they do at least.


I've also grown to just stealing higher level ships via the leech starships while not even having the tech. Quite nice to get free MK III engineers and MK III+IV ships that way :p
Just shuttle them out of the system as soon as they convert.



Neutering, it hurts
Hum. Yea. Well, basically I just wanted to say that you can basically keep AI progress rather tiny(I only kill guard + train stations if I don't intend to take the world) while teching up rather well(if only supply went 2 hops instead of 1 I'd have to take even less crappy places for knowledge) and playing basically solely a "hero driven"(because they are like buffed hero units in other RPG-RTS) game style of starship based rule of the galaxy.

And once AI progress gets worse and you need a bit more buffers, you already have so much knowledge that you can just throw more and more "normal" ships into your important planets and turret-stock them like crazy.



Pace yourself!
Gameplay IS rather slow for me though, but it also makes it more individual(several review complaints have been that there isn't really that much "character" or flaire here).
Heck, if you allowed ships to gain combat experience and 1-2 upgrades(more hitpoints on the raid or leech = unbeatable, more anti-turret weapons on the Flag/Zenith or whatever) or features(how about an AI progress free starship missile that cost 50k resources each, had a reload time of 10 minutes, but took out 4 turrets or a guard station via EMP blast, rendering them inactive and had excellent hitpoints?)  then you'd really have a "hero" system :P

Or maybe a "elite captain" research item that enabled small 5-20% buffs for starships etc.

But yea, that all just leads into making something near overpowered even stronger(which is why I bring it up :p  ).

Right, well, this went from structured to big textblob rather swiftly :p

Nonetheless this is just what I've found as a rather from-the-get-go effective workaround to being "afraid" of MK IV worlds and all those other big boys(I took the MK IV next to my homeworld as 3rd world to take thanks to raid starships) and just wanted to pass this along since I've seen many others fall prey to the propaganda of the tutorial.

I, too, have started out making tons of tiny ships just to have them crushed after 1-2 planets and rebuild them all. Now I just take my handful of starships, annihilate everything whereever I want and at most replace ONE.
The fact that the starships stay alive means you have vastly more "constant firepower" than with a many tiny sub-components "army"/blob of ships, even if you rotate them out for repairs.

And no, not even rather pesky masses of arachnids can stop them. I think raiders were more of a threat en masse even if I didn't confuse their bulletsprites.
Thanks to the 7 million hitpoints of the 2 Zeniths and overall decent anti-arachnid firepower of starships, there is precious little reason to worry(10 starships with 9-14 shots of 10kish attack each tend to take a bit of opposition to be intimidated).


Right. So far :p

Feel free to reply, criticize etc.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 07:30:11 am by Axiom »

Offline Spikey00

  • Lord of just 5 Colony Ships
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,704
  • And he sayeth to sea worm, thou shalt wriggle
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2009, 02:14:40 pm »
You're absolutely correct--great guide!

This would be my default strategy (though I might just stick with the Raid line) you have outlined, if I'm not experimenting with others.


The only concern is to consider the speed of which these ships travel at--generally the Starship line is albeit slightly slower than the Raid counterpart.
I'd take a sea worm any time over a hundred emotionless spinning carriers.
irc.appliedirc.com / #aiwar
AI War Facebook
AI War Steam Group

Offline raptor331

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2009, 02:37:02 pm »
Very good tips, I think I'll add one of my own: After destroying all enemy units except the Command Station and the Warp Gate, send in a large group of parasites on FRD Mode, basicly your getting your own supply of reinforcements for free every time the AI tries to reinforce the planet(this works well on Mark IV and V planets) ;D

Offline Axiom

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2009, 02:41:28 pm »
You're absolutely correct--great guide!

This would be my default strategy (though I might just stick with the Raid line) you have outlined, if I'm not experimenting with others.

The only concern is to consider the speed of which these ships travel at--generally the Starship line is albeit slightly slower than the Raid counterpart.

Thanks for the feedback! :)


True, speeds vary, but it's just as bad for ships: Cruisers vs Raiders or Fighters for example.
Considering all the rock-paper-scissor stuff, it's all a bit nonsense, since you are basically forced to always stoop to the lowest denominator in speed lest you like your charging ahead folks to get blasted to dust before your main force arrives...which just means all the speed advantages and differences become rather senseless in most cases.


Accordingly, the only way I utilize speed at all is that I tend to use a Raid starship(fastest, I think 26ish? speed) to lure out the initial wave from any post(all starships have the "make the enemy always chase you" or what it's called property which means guards WILL chase you or charge through the warppoint -> make sure you are always well defended), then have the 2 Zenith + 3 Flagship + 5ish leech starships blast the smaller ships and arachnids out of the way as they come a-rushing("small" clusters I attack SOLELY with the leech starships to get an ad hoc army for distraction+guard duty) and then proceed to convert the star point(warp, guard station, whichever) with the leech.



--
I have now rather developed that approach where with some patience and 2-4 engineers I can quite literally "hold" a system without taking out it's station or warp point just by dominating the warphole and resource/guard station points via leech conversion. You usually pick up 1-2 lasers+1-3 sniper turrents plus the odd lightning just by sitting at a warp point with a leech for a while and then can donate some on-demand engineers to the system and have it last for even an hour or better depending on system(more resources = more guard stations = more stuff you can convert).

I am not sure yet at which point the AI stops warping in turrets and only warps in ships to warppoints or whether there is ALWAYS a chance to warp in new, unconverted turrets, but if I am building "system bridges" for traversing, I simply single out 2 leeches(after converting as much of the system as possible beforehand if I have the patience), put 1 at the entry warp, 1 at the exit warp and voila, safe passage for basically as long as I like..(it's just too bad without supply the "other side" of the deep end warps the turrets are just dead weight target dummies - there should be such a thing as a supply ship which has a supply aura for engineers and turrets..if world war strategy simulations can have one, then surely space war can get one?).
Move through 1-2 systems to get to where you want to "deep strike", then take the leeches "holding the doors open" back along with you as you go back...

Two Zenith(+- some other SS helpers) and some raiders/leeches will knock out just about any system, even if they flood you(7 million hit points last you a looooooooooong time, just don't get overly cocky with the stationbusters, i.e. raids and leeches..strong isn't invincible).

Offline Axiom

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2009, 02:46:05 pm »
Very good tips, I think I'll add one of my own: After destroying all enemy units except the Command Station and the Warp Gate, send in a large group of parasites on FRD Mode, basicly your getting your own supply of reinforcements for free every time the AI tries to reinforce the planet(this works well on Mark IV and V planets) ;D

Thanks! :)

Yes, if you have parasites available that is definitely the way to go.
Having some spare "converter" units hanging around is a great boon if you can do with a bit reduced main force and want to keep a system weak for a while(i.e. when you are deep striking or bridging before making a new home further along the line).

It's also great fun to barely have 1-2 ships at MK II on the research levels, but have a ton of IVs sitting at home thanks to various "conversion sprees". :)

One word of caution though: it appears that if you convert engineers(likely this goes for ships as well) they count towards your unit cap. So if you haven't unlocked MK III yet, and are considering it, but already HAVE converted MK III engineers, don't do it.
You'll pay the knowledge then have 0 allowable units left to build if you already had the max amount beforehand..kind of silly quite frankly.
If mercenary units don't count towards the cap, why do converted units? That's just wrong..  :P
Paid for in blood is even more expensive than paid for 10x at the station!

Offline raptor331

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2009, 04:40:15 pm »
I use alot of mercenary units, but not until I have a more stable economy, those things are extremely expensive.

Offline Axiom

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2009, 08:18:53 am »
I use alot of mercenary units, but not until I have a more stable economy, those things are extremely expensive.

Yes, Mercenaries are a great way of constructing research-unlock-free home defense units. Even with only MK II tier "normal" ships unlocked you have an option of not running out of ships to place on your planets thanks to mercenaries.
My problem usually is that you can't adjust production speed..you're either superdraining your resources within minutes or not producing anything. There should be a way to let engineers SLOW production instead of accelerating it..a pace of 50-80 resource per second would be ideal to still leave room for the rest and make for unattended operation =)
As it is, I just forget about it forever, having 600k each and not doing anything with it while I roam space..

Offline raptor331

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2009, 02:29:45 pm »
I use alot of mercenary units, but not until I have a more stable economy, those things are extremely expensive.

Yes, Mercenaries are a great way of constructing research-unlock-free home defense units. Even with only MK II tier "normal" ships unlocked you have an option of not running out of ships to place on your planets thanks to mercenaries.
My problem usually is that you can't adjust production speed..you're either superdraining your resources within minutes or not producing anything. There should be a way to let engineers SLOW production instead of accelerating it..a pace of 50-80 resource per second would be ideal to still leave room for the rest and make for unattended operation =)
As it is, I just forget about it forever, having 600k each and not doing anything with it while I roam space..


Thats why I leave the mercenary docks alone until i capture alot of planets, then my economy can handle mercenaries with the accelerated production rate. ;)

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2009, 11:54:25 pm »
honestly - I've never actually used mercenary ships.

I tend to mass mk1 ships in repeat build mode for my home planet.. except..

Per planet self-set unit caps. Build xyz number of units for the planet.

Lemme post it up on the suggestion forum.
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline Axiom

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2009, 06:36:32 am »
I have actually decided on a minimalist approach at the moment.
I've found that you barely need to unlock any of the higher ship tiers of most common ships such as cruiser, bomber and fighter, as the AI will supply your Leech Starships with so many for conversion, that, inevitably, you actually cap out and end up not being able to convert any anymore. (Literally: you cap out on lvl III+IV tiers without even having them unlocked!)

Which, quite frankly, is rather annoying, because part of the strategy with leech starships is recruiting an "ad hoc" force out of enemy swarms, and I currently had to manually search for and scrap III+IV tier ship types at home planets so I could do this.
Not how I imagined things would work :P

But you can go a long way in this game without either taking planets or investing into tech beyond the "power 5" :P The raid+leech and the flagship+zenith+spire.
With those(and some colony ships) you are able to jump a dozen hops into any direction and create a colony there, keeping AI progress tremendously low while getting surprisingly close to the outer pockets of the galaxy(where the AI's home tends to be).

If you colonize based on research advancement, you can restrict yourself to 3+ warp hubs and ensure you get >(2+3x6)k knowledge each time you do base :)
Compare this to only basing every other planet or two where you might end up only having 1-2 "new" planets accessible and you can see the leverage of well chosen hubs.
Basically what it means to go for hubs is knowledge per AI progress is a lot higher, which, considering that each 2-4k of knowledge means hundreds of new turrets, at the same time keeps AI levels low while allowing you to catch up tech wise.

--
For example: even without initially aiming for that super-minimalist approach, the current 80 planet map is looking to have the first AI get crushed at less than 200 AI progress, with 2 datacenters still undestroyed on the planet in front of it..next game trying for a below 300 AI progress victory from the get-go and maybe even getting the first one down without advancing the AI to tier II units might be a neat experiment  :o

And I still have to try the opposite as well, taking every planet I find with resources >= 2 each. Turns out in this current map that there aren't actually that many of those, so I might have to make it either resources >2 each or total resources >= 4.

Offline Axiom

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2009, 06:41:52 am »
honestly - I've never actually used mercenary ships.

I tend to mass mk1 ships in repeat build mode for my home planet.. except..

Per planet self-set unit caps. Build xyz number of units for the planet.

Lemme post it up on the suggestion forum.

The unit caps are the very reason why I found myself forced to build mercenary dockyards to begin with. I run out of unit cap really swiftly just by traversing systems with leech starships and then you can't fortify some planets with enough units anymore and have to resort to mercenary ships.

Although I must admit, I do like to be overprotective. I prefer to overdo defense a bit, but in consequence rarely ever have that 200+ raider flock make it out of the initial "spiral of death", rather than getting half the turrets snuffed :P

I tend to use 90+% of any and all captured/produced normal small ships solely for planetary defense. The starships do all the heavy lifting.

Offline Echo35

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,703
  • More turrets! MORE TURRETS!
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2009, 10:02:35 pm »
What I mean is that obviously almost every player ends up chucking tons of turrets around wormholes. Why not allow the player to save 3-5 "setups" of "turret blobs", which he can save / load as he wants.

I've mentioned that before. I believe that thread ended up getting Drag+Build implemented. I haven't thought about it much since the turret ranges were cranked up. You can easily Ctrl + Click blobs of turrets and positioning isn't much an issue. Mines though, this would be nice for.

Quote
Same idea for ships would be formations, i.e. after one arranges ones ship blobs in a way, have the same layout save option and 90 degree rotation/orientation option.

That I'm not seeing the point of. What situation were you thinking of here?

Quote
That's right. The other two, metal and crystals, may SEEM important, but they are not.
They are in essence just a "delay" function for how long you must wait if you really screw up to build again, but only energy is THE capping function for your ships.
Again: ENERGY will decide how many ships/turrets you can field and steal, so it means EVERYTHING.
This will also make the decision to place MK III power plants that much easier. If all planets you own already have I and II, then yes, place IIIs until you can build all you want. No more thought wasted. I have found I still make 80-160 resources per second even with IIIs and barely any home planets.

Absolutely. All that matters is the +/- amount. The actual number hardly matters. Energy is pretty much the main reason for expanding. That and knowledge. (Power used to not be such an issue, and that was just silly ;))

Quote
Infrastructure: Engineers Mk II are a must. They can instantly go anywhere. Not just on one planet, but ACROSS SYSTEMS. What's more, they accelerate ship production insanely well while scaling modestly in cost. I don't feel that hot about the MK III yet.

First thing I get too. Mk. I's are arguably useless.

Quote
Attack strategies:
As people have already found and pointed out, Starships are god. The first unlocks before ANYTHING else should be Engineer II and the Raid Starship.
ASAP after that, Leech Starship and eventually the Flag/Zenith.

Usually I go for Dreadnoughts first. For whatever reason, 90% of the time the handful of planets next to my starting one have at least Special Forces Command Stations, and Dreadnoughts turn defenses into metal confetti.

Quote
Raiding
If you rather tech up first, do "research raiding":
Take all built raid starships, jump into a system, clear out the warp point(10-20 seconds..), jump in the research ship(s). Be aware that on higher level planets the warpfield reinforcements might be strong enough to insta-kill the research ship, so either seperate a guard and escort and move away a bit or just be aware of it and build some more research ships until you get all your knowledge.

Hence, the sole existence of Mk. II Research Ships.

Quote
Neutering, it hurts
Hum. Yea. Well, basically I just wanted to say that you can basically keep AI progress rather tiny(I only kill guard + train stations if I don't intend to take the world) while teching up rather well(if only supply went 2 hops instead of 1 I'd have to take even less crappy places for knowledge) and playing basically solely a "hero driven"(because they are like buffed hero units in other RPG-RTS) game style of starship based rule of the galaxy.

Thats what I love about this game. Not many other strategy games out there that reinforce Geurilla Warfare and make you think like a terrorist ;)

Quote
Pace yourself!
Gameplay IS rather slow for me though, but it also makes it more individual(several review complaints have been that there isn't really that much "character" or flaire here).

Ruke and I played a game at 4X speed once. That was hectic as hell.

Offline raptor331

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2009, 10:13:35 pm »
Quote
First off, merry christmas / whichever holiday applicable everyone!

I see someone has been paying attention to Jeff Dunhams Christmas Special. ;)

Offline RCIX

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,808
  • Avatar credit goes to Spookypatrol on League forum
Re: Suggestions & tips for dominating
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2009, 10:38:07 pm »
First thing I get too. Mk. I's are arguably useless.

I found their biggest use is to provide cheap (in terms of energy) ship production boosts. When a max teleport radius is implemented, these could be switched to teleport but with a smaller radius than MMkIIs, so they can still provide rapid response while being cheaper.
Avid League player and apparently back from the dead!

If we weren't going for your money, you wouldn't have gotten as much value for it!

Oh, wait... *causation loop detonates*