Mk IV ships, factories and their value

[orzelek]

I tried few times to use mark IV units in games with exo waves - but it seems to be quite difficult if not impossible.
Main reason for that is that Mk IV factory would need it's own full grade exo defense usually completely separate from other homeworld defenses.

Lack of ability to actually produce mk IV ships reduces value of fleet ships mark III unlocks since your ability to produce them is hampered by resources required to defend the production.

And now since we are getting nice cap equalization it seems that this may get a bit more important.

Is this only issue for me? Are you all using Mk IV ships on regular basis - especially in games with spire hard/golems hard?
Current alternative to Mk IV factories costs 14k knowledge - is anyone actually using it since that enclave re-balance?

One possible proposal would be to reduce the K cost of Mk IV enclave based on player actually capturing factory - one or both of them could have this effect.

[chemical_art]

For me, part of the tradeoff of getting exo waves is that I expect my access to mk IV factories to be limited. I try to make up the lack of IV factories with the goodies I get as a result of the exo waves.

[Kahuna]

This is exactly what I've been saying. Exos disabled Advanced Factories. The only way Advanced Factories could be used when Exos are enabled is to find a map seed where you have an AF max 4 hops away from your home planet. Then build defenses and take waves on those 2 planets. I haven't actually tried yet this but it might be possible.

I'm always either a Turtle or Fleeter.
I rarely play without exos so I don't usually use Advanced Factories. If I don't have access to an AF I play very defensively (Turtle). I usually unlock 1 MarkII ship early in the game and other MarkIIs late game or not at all. I'll get MarkIIs from ARSs anyway. If I know I will have an easy access to an Advanced Factory early in the game I would probably use most knowledge to unlock MarkIIIs (Fleeter).

[keith.lamothe]

All exo sources are from superweapon factions, so I don't see a huge problem with it creating problems for using the highest-end part of the human's main non-superweapon source of DPS (fleet ships). It can still be done, it's just harsh (either through defensive requirements, map requirements, or knowledge requirements).  The AI that you just jumpship+raidStarship'd all their data centers, assassinated everything else important with an artillery golem, stole half of what was left with a widow golem, etc... it isn't shedding any tears for your mkIV woes

[Hearteater]

Well, caps on Mark II are increasing, so that might help this issue.  In addition, Advanced Factories work fine if you wait to take them until you are ready to win so that no Exo hits from the time when you capture it to the time when you win.  Besides that, in a lot of cases mobile units can defend one while static defenses protect the other.

[Faulty Logic]

I only rarely bothered to keep my advanced factories, even in normal games. With golems or spirecraft enabled, they seemed both underwhelming and indefensible. I recall being unimpressed as far back as the tutorial. This was one of the main reasons I wanted mark-cap equalization. Now that seven tenths of potential fleetship power comes from mkIII-IV, I will consider unlocking these and/or defenending the advanced factory more seriously.

[orzelek]

All exo sources are from superweapon factions, so I don't see a huge problem with it creating problems for using the highest-end part of the human's main non-superweapon source of DPS (fleet ships). It can still be done, it's just harsh (either through defensive requirements, map requirements, or knowledge requirements).  The AI that you just jumpship+raidStarship'd all their data centers, assassinated everything else important with an artillery golem, stole half of what was left with a widow golem, etc... it isn't shedding any tears for your mkIV woes

If I understand this correctly when we enable one of those factions we are required to cheese with toys from this faction?
Thats not really fair. We have significant share of cheesers around that play 10/10 but for average player this won't work that way. And then we get no access to part of game because of this. And remember that we are always subject to rng

For me as it stands mark IV factory may not exist. It's a forced stop to destroy the CSG and thats it. If I can't keep it I may as well resign from trying and spend that resources elsewhere.

Jumpships maybe a bit OP - no idea since I haven't used them yet. If spire faction is balanced with them in mind.. is that ok? I don't find other spire ships that shiny - they are useful butt not that game changing.

As for golems.. I need to play around with them more to see what they are capable of.

[Minotaar]

If I understand this correctly when we enable one of those factions we are required to cheese with toys from this faction?
Thats not really fair. We have significant share of cheesers around that play 10/10 but for average player this won't work that way. And then we get no access to part of game because of this. And remember that we are always subject to rng

For me as it stands mark IV factory may not exist. It's a forced stop to destroy the CSG and thats it. If I can't keep it I may as well resign from trying and spend that resources elsewhere.

Jumpships maybe a bit OP - no idea since I haven't used them yet. If spire faction is balanced with them in mind.. is that ok? I don't find other spire ships that shiny - they are useful butt not that game changing.

As for golems.. I need to play around with them more to see what they are capable of.

Well, you are supposed to use the ships you're getting and they are certainly more powerful than what a mk4 Factory can provide. Spirecraft balance has serious problems that have been discussed multiple times I think, Martyrs and Jumpships are definitely top picks for the #1 Most Overpowered Thing Ever spot. Golems are in a better spot AFAIK, though I haven't played with them in a while.
You can also always get your scout mk4 off the AF, too, even if you can't defend it. And the fleetships would get overshadowed by golems/SC anyway.

[keith.lamothe]

If I understand this correctly when we enable one of those factions we are required to cheese with toys from this faction?

That would be an extremely oversimplified understanding

1) There's a difference between "use the ships" and "cheese with the ships".  Yes, if you play Golems - Hard and don't use golems you're going to be at a disadvantage   Though some people turn them on and don't use them because they just wanted more exos in their Fallen Spire game, etc.

2) If you don't want the exos that wipe your fabs and adv-facts, etc, then just play Golems - Medium, it's fairly punishing in its own way but without the attacks that will specifically go for those targets.  Or if you don't want to deal with that either, Golems - Easy, and just ratchet up the AI difficulty or pick mean AI Types or whatever you feel is a proportionate challenge to compensate for the superweapons.

Similar goes for Spirecraft - Hard/Medium/Easy and Botnet - Hard/Medium/Easy.  Fallen Spire doesn't have those settings per-se, though the intensity level does control the intensity of the exos generated.  But "Fallen Spire - Easy" is basically "do the first two recoveries and just use the refugee's first stage of assistance" and the AI won't do ongoing exos unless you actually build a city.

[orzelek]

How important are the magnitude numbers on difficulty of golems/spirecraft and fallen spire?

For now I think I will resign from spire craft and test the golems. From spire craft I'm staying away from martyrs and jumpships and others don't seem that powerful.

All of that doesn't change opinions that even in normal games adv factory is not worth holding on unless it fits into your defensive plans which is rare.

[Diazo]

What about giving Adv. Facs and Fabricators the ability to drop remains? (With an increase in construction costs to make losing them hurt. Maybe a really long construction time so even with engineer assistance rebuilding takes a while.)

That would still make them a high value target but prevent the "why bother" syndrome some people are experiencing.

On the other hand, having some structures that can't be re-built go a long way towards the excitement as there is no "do-over" if you screw your defence up.

D.

[Hearteater]

Not sure I like that.  There are too few ways already the AI can hit you were it hurts.

[Diazo]

Then what about stealing a fallen spire mechanic.

And Adv. Fac. is a Pre-Fab module that you can move and then deploy to build and adv. fac. like the Fallen Spire Colony Ship builds a Spire City.

Restrictions would have to be placed on it so you don't just build it next to you home command, maybe can not build in the same system as a Player Home Command Station and must be within 2 hops of an AI warp gate to "read" off the AI network to function?

The 2 hops restriction being so that you can't bury it 6 hops away from the AI and stays exposed. Maybe even reduce it to one hop?

Or make it a flat out mobile structure that moves slow and has a 30 minute cooldown after moving before it can start building, but it has to be adjacent to an active AI warp gate to function?

I'm making these suggestions because I kind of agree with the "it's too exposed" crowd, while liking the idea that you only get the one and the AI can hurt you by destroying it.

 I will be taking and Adv Fac in my current game but the only reason I expect to hold it is because I'll be using the Warp Jammer station, and I don't even have exo-waves on.

D.

[orzelek]

Making the factory similar to refuge ship and allowing you to chose it's location (and also force you to escort it through AI territory and special forces could be made to try and prevent that) would go a long way to making it much more usable.

Forcing a required AI Warp gate x jumps from it to work would need ability to reposition said factory or you would be permanently locked to certain planets being AI. It would make things a bit more complicated especially in Fallen Spire scenario.

[TechSY730]

I sort of like how the Advanced factories, manufactories, etc, are not relocatable. That is one of their design purposes, to pressure players into defending a possibly awkward location, aka, encourage them to try to go outside of their "comfort zone".

That said, the new exo waves targeting these things really do make holding these planets much, much harder, as our current defensive tools (sons absurd amounts of knowledge invested in them) aren't really enough to hold off exos on their own in the mid to later stages of the game.

As such, I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 more adv factories spawned and maybe a few more manufactories of the other stuff to compensate for this.