Author Topic: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes  (Read 9129 times)

Offline Zincat

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Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« on: June 26, 2014, 04:18:34 pm »
Hello, I'm new to the forums though I'm not really a new player. I recently returned to AI war after some months of hiatus, and before I finished about 10 or so games, ranging from difficulty 7 at the start to, more recently, 8 or so. I also already finished Fallen spire, on a 7.6/7.6 game, by building the galactic transceiver. I also finished games with various ai plots and minor factions turned on.
So, while not an expert, I'm not a complete newbie and I'm familiar with planet neutering, reduction of entry points, loweiring aip through extensive scouting and raiding, clearing out threat when possible, usage of warheads and the like. But this game really baffles me and I'm wondering what I could do about it.

I am trying a fallen spire campaign game. Settings are
AI1 and AI2: 8.3 random moderate/easier with secondary type random moderate/easier
Realistic map (yes, perhaps I could have done without all those star connections... but that's not the problem)
Schizophrenic AI
Zenith Trader
Hybrids 4/10 on both AIs
Advanced Hybrids 4/10 on both AIs

So, for me at least, these are rather painful settings which I chose in order to improve. And I expected to struggle, but what is happening here is that the exowave I get when building the first spire city completely tramples me and I get a game over.

I'm a little more than 4 hrs in the game (hybrids slowed me down and the planets are heavily fortified, with multiple fortresses. Plus  I scouted a lot). I have 5 worlds and AIP is 85

The waves come generally from 2 different ways. One heads for the system where I'm building the Spire City, the other for my home planet. This I expected. What I did NOT expect was the size of the wave.
Each wave is about 250 ships, of which 30-40 starships, 2-3 dire guardians and 2-3 golems. Is this normal? I mean, I don't have any spire ship yet except from 4 frigates, how can I stop THAT?

My defenses are set very much like what's written in this excellent post here
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,15646.msg172836.html#msg172836
with turrets between the incoming wormhole and the commands station, mines and everything else pretty much as that post.

For turrets I have on each chockepoint full caps of Needler MK1 and MK2, Laser MK1, MLRS MK1, Missile MK1 and MK2, Sniper MK1 and MK2, Flak MK1, Lightning MK1, Spider MK1 plus some tractor beams and about 15 grav turrets. I also have normal mines set down and my whole fleet there, plus 2 forcefields II on the military command MK3 station. To complete the defense, 2 miniforts and a mk1 fortress. That's pretty much all of my tech unlocks here (aside from mk3 resource collectors).

And with all this, the wave just rolls over me. It's not that they really kill everything. More like, they smash the grav turrets as they go, pass my defenses, destroy my forcefield and everything below it, and then move to the next planet.

I am asking for some generic suggestions here. I want to understand If i set the game wrongly, or if I am trying to buid up the first city too soon.
I am rather new to these difficulty settings, but it's not the game in general that gives me problems, rather the exowave kills me before I can start pumping out some spire ships. Was I supposed to put some sort of toys in the game also, like golems, spirecrafts or the like?

Or, am I supposed to bide my time more at these difficulty settings, lower aip further, maybe get a couple more tech unlocks like FF mk3, grav turrets mk2, spider turrets mk2 or someting like that? Or, make liberal use of warheads? I am a bit worried by the AIP but...

Sorry for the rather longish post. Hope I will be able to find some suggestions. Thanks :)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 04:55:07 pm by Zincat »

Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 11:08:05 pm »
So, for me at least, these are rather painful settings which I chose in order to improve. And I expected to struggle, but what is happening here is that the exowave I get when building the first spire city completely tramples me and I get a game over.

I'm a little more than 4 hrs in the game (hybrids slowed me down and the planets are heavily fortified, with multiple fortresses. Plus  I scouted a lot). I have 5 worlds and AIP is 85

The waves come generally from 2 different ways. One heads for the system where I'm building the Spire City, the other for my home planet. This I expected. What I did NOT expect was the size of the wave.
Each wave is about 250 ships, of which 30-40 starships, 2-3 dire guardians and 2-3 golems. Is this normal?
Yes. Sounds a slight bit weaker than what hit me in my recent 9/9 Fallen Spire game, but overall it sounds reasonable enough.

Quote
I mean, I don't have any spire ship yet except from 4 frigates, how can I stop THAT?
Warheads. They are the cheap always available human-only superweapon. Use them.

Armoured warheads do damage to the targets with MOST hp in their area of effect first. They are exceptional for killing golems (and much later in the FS campaign if you go for a lot of cities, excellent for taking out large numbers of Hunter/Killers).

Lightning warheads  do damage to the targets with LEAST hp in their area of effect first, up to a capped maximum. They are great for clearing out numerous lesser threats.

The next few waves will be much weaker - it is the initial wave upon building the first city that is nasty. Always keep a stock of warheads in reserve and nothing Fallen Spire will throw against you will ever threaten you. If you build up a lot before building the first city you won't need warheads, but if you want to go for the city quickly, and you apparently do since you go for it with only 5 planets and hence weak defences, you probably do.
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.

Offline Zincat

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 03:25:34 am »
Thanks for you answer :)

Warheads. They are the cheap always available human-only superweapon. Use them.

Armoured warheads do damage to the targets with MOST hp in their area of effect first. They are exceptional for killing golems (and much later in the FS campaign if you go for a lot of cities, excellent for taking out large numbers of Hunter/Killers).

Lightning warheads  do damage to the targets with LEAST hp in their area of effect first, up to a capped maximum. They are great for clearing out numerous lesser threats.

The next few waves will be much weaker - it is the initial wave upon building the first city that is nasty. Always keep a stock of warheads in reserve and nothing Fallen Spire will throw against you will ever threaten you.

So, warheads. I had considered this possibility but I was afraid of the aip problem. I have been taught to keep the aip as low as possible by repeated death... errr I mean, gentle tutorials, so while I considered it I was hesitant to do that. Generally I keep warheads for truly fortified targets. the idea of using me just for waves seemed a bit... excessive. At least to me. Guess I was still living in a flowery world where harsh decisions are not needed to win....

If you build up a lot before building the first city you won't need warheads, but if you want to go for the city quickly, and you apparently do since you go for it with only 5 planets and hence weak defences, you probably do.

The reason I am considering this so early is the hybrids. Coupled with the realistic map setting. I have a LOT of planets where threat is gathering, and that means 30-50 hybrids as well. With my very limited fleets, that's a huge problem. Neutering those planets is also a problem, because there's so many of them and each of them is a really hard target, even with beachheading. I was also considering beachheading them all, leaving the turrets there, but then I'd have huge energy issues. Conquering other planents would only increase the amount of entry points, given how the map is set up.

There are also no real good capturables/hackables in the immediate vicinity. A couple of backup servers with useless stuff, a useless mk5 constructor, and a flak mk5 constructor. Now, normally this is a very good capturable, but with FS the flak turrets do not really help that much with starships, dire guardians and golems.

So, back to the topic. Warheads. I have another couple of questions.

- How high can I let the aip go before I become really worried? I'm used to keeping it ultra low, but this is Fallen Spire so I need some reference. Also, won't the aip increase the strength of the exowaves?

- You suggest using armored warheads, and I understand why because they target golems and the like first. But they cost about 10 times more, and also give you triple the aip. So another question, which armored warheads should I aim for? For example, for the wave above. Would a mk1 armored + a mk3 lighting do the trick? Or should I aim for a mk2 or mk3 armored? The cost would be a rather huge problem as of now... but if I have to...

Offline ArnaudB

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 08:08:02 am »


So, warheads. I had considered this possibility but I was afraid of the aip problem. I have been taught to keep the aip as low as possible by repeated death... errr I mean, gentle tutorials, so while I considered it I was hesitant to do that. Generally I keep warheads for truly fortified targets. the idea of using me just for waves seemed a bit... excessive. At least to me. Guess I was still living in a flowery world where harsh decisions are not needed to win....
First, AIP is far less of a concern in a spire scenario. In last game, I had to rush because I had civilian leaders and ended up at 180 AIP by the fourth hour mark. Notably for Fallen Spire, AIP doesn't affect the strength of Fallen Spire waves.

The first spire city wave is really harsh, but do note that a fully up spire city (with the appropriate laser/beam unlock) is a fearsome amount of firepower. Once you have got it set up, it's a lot easier to deal with the exo-waves.

One trick is to get resources maxed and LOT of engineers in your future spire-city system. With one homeworld you should have 2 millions+ resources, which allow the combined effort of engineer to complete the city very quickly. After that instantly rush for reactor and equip it with highest laser/beam/shield that you can build, then go for the habitation center, which also deal an enormous amount of damage to any wave in range.
Having beam turrets II and III unlocked + laser turrets III should give you a lot of firepower to put at your homeworld. (Knowledge hack is a thing, if you don't have knowledge/didn't buy those.)

Another trick is -indeed- warhead. a couple lightning+ one or two armored (or a single one of each, depending on mark), accompanied by a cloaked starship to ensure they won't get shot when you don't want to.
Keeping warheads on key systems, especially homeworld, is almost mandatory in Fallen Spire (above 8/8). Often you don't use them, but the assurance is very, very nice.


Quote
The reason I am considering this so early is the hybrids. Coupled with the realistic map setting. I have a LOT of planets where threat is gathering, and that means 30-50 hybrids as well. With my very limited fleets, that's a huge problem. Neutering those planets is also a problem, because there's so many of them and each of them is a really hard target, even with beachheading. I was also considering beachheading them all, leaving the turrets there, but then I'd have huge energy issues. Conquering other planents would only increase the amount of entry points, given how the map is set up.
Do note that exo-waves come from warp gates, you can force them to appear from a chosen system, or a more distant one, by picking warp gates to kill. A little advanced trick for early FS games though.

Threat can also be dealt with warhead if that's needed. I have done a few 7k ship clearing that way, mostly with mark 3 lightning. Otherwise your spire fleet might be able to do something about that. At worst, try beachheading with gravity turret II/III to keep AI ship too far from you 13k range spire fleet. Beams attack from spire ships + beam modules tend to to a more than decent amount of damage (And spire ships are fairly cheap for their firepower.)



Quote
There are also no real good capturables/hackables in the immediate vicinity. A couple of backup servers with useless stuff, a useless mk5 constructor, and a flak mk5 constructor. Now, normally this is a very good capturable, but with FS the flak turrets do not really help that much with starships, dire guardians and golems.
Lasers turrets, which you need to put as modules on your spire ships, should help a lot with starships and golems.
Again, knowledge hack is a thing.

Area mines can also do a fairly good amount of damage. Especially over multiple systems as exo-waves always go straight for their Spire-system/Homeworld target, and thus advance in a nice line between wormholes. (Alt+right click with mines selected to build them in a row, with "place line")

Offline Zincat

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 01:34:17 pm »
So, I went and managed to survive my first spire city exowave with the abuse of exploding confetti. I must say, it was rather... satisfying after struggling with it before. I can see how I will be strongly... encouraged... to keep some warheads ready all the time, just in case.


First, AIP is far less of a concern in a spire scenario. In last game, I had to rush because I had civilian leaders and ended up at 180 AIP by the fourth hour mark. Notably for Fallen Spire, AIP doesn't affect the strength of Fallen Spire waves.

This I had no idea about. It's not written anywhere I can find, so I thought AIP would increase exowave size. I must say, this does put my worries to rest quite a bit, though the game is by no means won as it is.

Do note that exo-waves come from warp gates, you can force them to appear from a chosen system, or a more distant one, by picking warp gates to kill. A little advanced trick for early FS games though.

Threat can also be dealt with warhead if that's needed. I have done a few 7k ship clearing that way, mostly with mark 3 lightning. Otherwise your spire fleet might be able to do something about that. At worst, try beachheading with gravity turret II/III to keep AI ship too far from you 13k range spire fleet. Beams attack from spire ships + beam modules tend to to a more than decent amount of damage (And spire ships are fairly cheap for their firepower.)

Oh, I'm aware of all this, but once again I was rather hesitant to bring the aip up. Also, with my limited fleet, it was not easy at all to try and clear those threat gatherng worlds, courtesy of all those hybrids

After that instantly rush for reactor and equip it with highest laser/beam/shield that you can build, then go for the habitation center, which also deal an enormous amount of damage to any wave in range.
Having beam turrets II and III unlocked + laser turrets III should give you a lot of firepower to put at your homeworld. (Knowledge hack is a thing, if you don't have knowledge/didn't buy those.)
Lasers turrets, which you need to put as modules on your spire ships, should help a lot with starships and golems.
Again, knowledge hack is a thing.

Ok, this here puzzles me a bit. Laser turrets are needed more or less for Spire ships, though I tend to put as many HBC on them as possible besides shields.
But for spire cities, unless I'm missing something, rail cannons seem to have a higher dps than an equivalent mark laser cannon modules.

Let's see what I have now:
Laser Cannon module mk2 4000x3 every 8 seconds -> dps 1500
Bonuses close combat 10, Heavy 2, Ligt 5, Ultra light 5
Armor piercing 15
Rail cannon module mk2 12000 every 6 seconds -> dps 2000
Bonuses close combat 5, command grade 0.1, medium 4, polycrystal 4, Ultra light 6
Armor piercing 999999

Let's see against specific ships. Not going to bother with fleet ships, as it's generally bigger ships that create problems.
All golems are ultra heavy, so no bonus there. But the rail cannon has armor piercing, so it's better.
Starships:
Laser cannon has bonus against Flagship (heavy), leech starship (heavy, but generally not really a problem against a spire city), raider starship (ultra light), beam starship (Heavy), warbird starship (heavy)
Rail cannon has bonus against Spire starship (medium), bomber starship (polycrystal), raider starship (ultra light). The rail cannon also has armor piercing, so it's generally better against anything that does have armor. It IS useless against hunter killer though, I must admit.
Dire guardians are almost all medium, to which rail cannon has a bonus against, with a few ultra light in between.

So, unless I am mistaken, the rail cannon seems just better all things considered against big AI ships. Except the hunter killer. The question at this point is, is that reason enough to use laser turrets instead of rail cannons? 

EDIT: I noticed that the mk3 rail cannon vs laser cannon have the same dps, but the armor piercing and better general bonus should still stay true.
Ofc mk4 laser cannon modules are better... but you need the galactic capitol so not until a long while later.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 01:44:52 pm by Zincat »

Offline Zincat

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2014, 12:14:00 pm »
Ok, so, after this latest update I'd like to  ask for more guidance.

I am 14 hrs and half into the game, due to early game hybrids slowdowns and some noobishness on my part. And I'm about to start building the third spire city.
The exowave I'm seeing after starting that is
55 massive ships 61244S
and the total strength of the incoming ships is about 180000, as shows by the threat popup, divided into three generally.

I attach here a save, a few minutes before I tried to build the spire city. If you want to see the exowave I'm seeing, just pick the spire colony ship (it's near the home command station), move it to Zaraeo (2 jumps away) and start building. No, the defenses there are not completely ready in this save, but rather close.

Now, I tried it a couple of times. I can only survive this by deploying at least 2-3 armored warheads. More to the point, once the exowave came through the spire city at Qucau, one step from home system, and obliterated it in 50 seconds flat. I'd like to think it's a rather well defended system

Normal systems, like Rinigen just one hop away from home system, last like 30 seconds or so. And in my opinion, it's a  heavily defended system, with multiple shields, fortresses, turrets, everything I can put there. And even my spire fleet can't really do anything to stop them. Sure, the spire ships do not die, but the exowave marches on to the home command station and kills it.

So, I may be a bit of a noob but I question this kind of... one way solution of using warhears. The exowave strength seems disproportionate to the spire fleet/spire city modules I have right now.  I mean, this is not a 10/10 game where I would expect something like that. When I did read the changelog, I thought that since the spire ships and cities were buffed, exowaves were meant to be stopped by using those mainly. One would say that the fallen spire campaign is mainly about the fallen spire, not about liberal use of warheads.

At any rate, I wanted to ask for opinions and suggestions. I could finish the game the normal way, I think, by sending my spire fleet to the ai worlds etc. But I would like to at least finish the galactic capitol. Or, I could try to make the exo waves pass through multiple systems, so that they lose strength... but on this realistic map, this would require conquering/neutering about 15 worlds or so...

So... on to my questions
What am I doing wrong?
Are my defenses set incorrectly?
What could I do better?
Is there something I'm missing?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 12:17:32 pm by Zincat »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2014, 12:23:45 pm »
It's certainly possible the FS numbers need more adjustment, as the changes I just made were very broad strokes.  Just trying to get back into the right ballpark, really.

A few thoughts on what I'm aiming for:
- The main challenge of an FS game should be these exos.
- The main thing you use to survive that challenge should be your cities and capital ships.
- Needing to use some warheads isn't bad, though I don't want wanton warhead spam to be the only way.  Warheads are kind of the human superweapon, so it make sense they'd be used in conjunction with the spire superweapons to survive the worst of the AI's assault on the joint human/spire forces.

Anyway, three things come to mind to make the situation you're facing line up better with it being a challenge rather than an auto-curbstomp:
- reduce the strength of the 3rd spire city exo (possibly the 2nd one too; I didn't increase the first one)
- increase the strength of spire cities further
- increase the strength of spire capital ships further

I prefer the latter two but it might be an overreaction.  Possibly just +/- 10% for all three.
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Offline Zincat

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2014, 01:08:13 pm »
It's certainly possible the FS numbers need more adjustment, as the changes I just made were very broad strokes.  Just trying to get back into the right ballpark, really.

A few thoughts on what I'm aiming for:
- The main challenge of an FS game should be these exos.
- The main thing you use to survive that challenge should be your cities and capital ships.
- Needing to use some warheads isn't bad, though I don't want wanton warhead spam to be the only way.  Warheads are kind of the human superweapon, so it make sense they'd be used in conjunction with the spire superweapons to survive the worst of the AI's assault on the joint human/spire forces.

Anyway, three things come to mind to make the situation you're facing line up better with it being a challenge rather than an auto-curbstomp:
- reduce the strength of the 3rd spire city exo (possibly the 2nd one too; I didn't increase the first one)
- increase the strength of spire cities further
- increase the strength of spire capital ships further

I prefer the latter two but it might be an overreaction.  Possibly just +/- 10% for all three.

Thank you for your answer. I'd like to specify a couple of things.
First, it is entirely possible that I'm making mistakes, which is why I posted my savegame etc. I'm not that experienced, and perhaps someone will point out some glaring mistake I did. So before thinking of nerfs or such, maybe the opinion of a better player would be useful.

But the main problem, I feel, is not really the lack of firepower. More, it's the lack of time. By doubling the exowave strength, my defenses and shields get smashed too fast for my firepower to make a difference. This is, of course, especially true for systems without spire cities. The exowave smashes the shields and move on to the home system and kill me, and my defensive firepower is left largely unused. I have to resort to armored warheads because I can't seem to find a way to slow them down enough, to buy time for all my turrets/fortresses etc to actually kill the ai ships.

Tractor beams are useless as the massive ships and the starships are tractor immune.
Grav turrets are too low health, only buy me a few seconds alltogether before dying because the waves have too many ships.
I have all the shields unlocked, but 4mk3 shields and 4 mk2 shields, a mix of hardened and normal ones, get destroyed in 5 seconds flat
Even core spider turrets make hardly a dent in the incoming wave, since all those ships have 100000+ engine health.
I'm using mk3 military command station, perhap I could use mk3 logistic which would double the time... but then I'd have half the firepower
I just don't know how to gain enough time to stop those exowaves without resorting to warheads....

P.S: I could heavily use zenith trader toys. Up to now I avoided them because they're costly and I did not decide where to put them (where the final front would be). But I feel they are beyond the point, as far as balance goes. Many do not use it, so the game should not be balanced for those toys)
Besides I'm not sure they would help that much. Radar jammer perhaps....
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 02:44:54 pm by Zincat »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2014, 03:42:14 pm »
On the trader toys, if you combine a radar jammer mkII with properly placed mkIII grav turrets (on either side of the probable line of advance, such that they cover it but aren't closer than necessary for that) you can often slow them down without them being able to kill the gravs (unless they break off to do so, which exo forces generally won't).

Another possibility is logistics command stations, which reduce enemy speed.  I'm not sure how much overall impact they'd have in your case, however.
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Offline orzelek

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2014, 04:15:41 pm »
I wanted to try my luck on FS but I see things have gotten interesting - I seen latest buffs for FS stuff - did I miss buffs for exos?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2014, 04:52:23 pm »
I wanted to try my luck on FS but I see things have gotten interesting - I seen latest buffs for FS stuff - did I miss buffs for exos?
The 7.045 notes include buffs for the exos, if that's what you mean :)

And yes, the capital ships should now be fairly ridiculous, though we'll see how it goes in practice.
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Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2014, 10:11:23 pm »
Okay, I checked the save, so I have some answers to the questions: [Good lord, this turned out much longer than I expected. I ended up spending an hour writing this! Hope it is of some use.]


Quote
So... on to my questions
What am I doing wrong?
Are my defenses set incorrectly?
What could I do better?
Is there something I'm missing?

First, you are playing Fallen Spire on 6/10 rather than the default 4/10, so it is to be expected that things are tougher for you than on 4/10, and you are missing many obvious improvements to your approach. I can fully understand that you are experiencing pain in the given situation.

Second, a small but obvious  thing - you are placing your gravity turrets poorly, directly along the line of advance of enemy ships. You should put them along lines parallel to the line of advance such that they merely overlap it (which means that short ranged enemy ships won't even be able to hit the turret without detouring from the advance) and, since you've got Zenith Traders, if you slap down a Radar Jammer 2 as well even most long-range enemy ships will be unable to hit the turrets without departing from the line. Which they eventually will, of course, but time the enemy wastes is time you can take advantage of - and which your defences surely will.

Third, you have conquered... unwisely. Lord knows that your map isn't trivial to make sense of, but you seem to have been going for a maximum of exposure to hostile threats with minimal safe interior space and minimal use of defensive depth. Nearly everything is either exposed or is one jump from the frontier. Consider the top-left corner of the map as the obvious example: What possible reason do you have for NOT occupying Causeip and Ashteio? They are both safely behind your chokepoint defences, as is the Superterminal world on Qachar. Likewise, along the left edge of the map, you've got six hostile systems on or above the Ginwig-Ginyae-Chrsi line that are mixed in with yours and, if you took control of them all, could be defended directly by only two chokepoints, Ginya-Chrsi, while allowing you to reduce defences in three current chokepoints behind the line. If you take down the Superterminal, you can certainly afford it, and it will give you lots of knowledge. (And if you then take Weppan-Hartus-Neiner, you own the entire western side and have an enviable defensive setup with lots of space for the economic stations you've already paid to unlock, giving you only a few contacts with the enemy and the energy to build strong distributed defences in every system leading to your homeworld)
 
Fourth, regards to knowledge, one obvious thing to note is that you've skimped on turrets in favour of spending on your economy on the per-galaxy capped forts and shields. 28000 knowledge on your economy, but only 17,750 on turrets? Okay, I understand the Mil3 stations. I even understand the Econ3 stations, despite you controlling so little territory that isn't on the frontline and hence has military stations that you don't get much benefit from the economic stations (my solution would be to conquer more territory as noted above, taking down the Superterminal along the way), but regardless of that you don't control anywhere near enough territory for it to be worth additionally spending 9k on Harvester upgrades, and yet you've done so.

For that 9k price you could, for instance, have unlocked Needler 4, Laser 4, Missile 3+4 for 5500, and throw in Sniper III and IV for 3500. I daresay they'd help you more than your harvester upgrades, given that you are to a large degree living on salvage income anyhow.

Now, I wouldn't unlock those if I only had 9k to use - I'd go primarily for Sniper, Spider, and Missile turrets, and I'll tell you why - I love defensive depth. Key to using defensive depth is knowing that it is never about stopping the enemy before the final destination (in this case, your homeworld, later in the game a spire city), it is about inflicting attritional damage on the way, and THAT is mostly about maximizing time-on-target for defences. If you try to stop the juggernaut head on in each system before reaching the next, it will roll over you. Even worse, if it comes in multiple successive groups (which exowaves do) and the first group roll over your defences, the second wave may not even suffer attritional casualties when it is its turn to pass through the system!

Certain things follow: A system is intended for one of two roles, either stopping an enemy or inflicting attritional casualties on an enemy, and its defences should be set up accordingly, but in both these cases, Sniper and Spider turrets are invaluable. Exowaves consist of both large and small ships - ideally you'll mainly have to bother about the large ships while your defences kill most of the smaller, and few things are as good for weeding out the smaller ships as having sniper and spider turrets set up safely away from the enemy keeping their perfect 100% time-on-target damage for both of them, and slowing small ships in their tracks for the spiders.

Putting the station for the defences directly on top of the exit wormhole leading to your homeworld as you've done almost everywhere ensures that the station will be wiped out before the enemy progresses any further; Putting all your turret defences in a standard Kahuna-style defence ensures that they get wiped out too. This is inefficient. The purpose of a good defence in depth is to take advantage of that depth to bleed the opponent while limiting your own casualties.

Rather, for attrition purposes, the station should either be located as far as possible from the route the enemy is traveling (and be a logistics station) with all sniper and spider turrets placed far from the anywhere anybody passing through would come (e.g. behind the station), with other turrets placed to cover the route passersthrough traverse at maximum distance, OR be placed close by the exit wormhole but to the side of the line of advance, such that defences set up protect the station also overlap the line of advance to the wormhole but enemy ships are capable of traversing the line without having to fully destroy the station+forcefields. (The second should be your preferred for systems that double as current tanking locations with hostile wormholes).

In both cases, you may lose some or all of your defences to enemies that pass through, but a) it will take longer time for the enemy to do this, time in which it is under fire, and b) it is not guaranteed to wipe out your defences, which posting them directly on the wormhole does.)

MOREOVER, since the Fallen Spire exos arrive in several individual groups, NOT having them bunch up is a very good idea unless you expect to be strong enough to stop them cold in a system. Once your FS fleet is larger, you may very well end up with a Level 2 spire city that boosted with other defences makes an excellent chokepoint on which to KILL THEM ALL, but you don't have any such locations now.

Fifth, USE THE ZENITH TRADERS! You've played 14h and your number of toys is depressingly low. Your homeworld does not have the full set of obligatory Trader Toys - I refer to the Radar Jammer II, the Armor Inhibitor, the Armor Armor Booster, the Black Hole Machine... They should all be placed under a forcefield behind the home station, so they can live in peace and not be destroyed during construction should anything hit the home's forcefields. Nor have you built the Orbital Mass Drivers or the Superfortress. Sure, these toys are expensive, but they are powerful and if you cannot think of anywhere else to put them, the homeworld is also a nice location for those toys (and, in fact, with you having to defend on so many fronts, a very good idea for defence in depth as exos coming from any direction will end up there after hitting only two systems). You've got the traders enabled, why on earth not make good use of them? Between the exos and the regular waves, you'll have more than enough metal income to build their toys. (If you feel you have too low a metal income, just increase your AIP by conquest and the increased wavesize will do the rest).


Anyhow, I hope there's something in what I've written that will be of use. Much of my frustration is because I simply don't see the logic of the way you've expanded and spent knowledge, apart from a vague feeling that you've been focusing on limiting your AIP expenditure over setting up a good defensive and economic network.

While it probably makes sense to you, and it may even make good sense, as people have different playing styles and I'll not insist that my own is the best after having played the game for so short a time (2 months), when I look at it I only see all the great missed opportunities for setting up secure lightly defended inner areas that pay for significant defence in depth and major defences on the borders. You've focused on unlocking defences with per-galaxy cap and spread them over many systems rather than focusing on those with per-planet caps, with the results that - as I see it - you are weak everywhere. Forts are fun and I highly recommend them, but they don't provide anywhere near the bang for the knowledge-buck that turrets do when you are defending more than one planet.

The problem is, as I am seeing these things through my strategic vision and not yours, I am not sure that my advice is all that useful to you in the given situation unless you are willing to depart from your own and adopt mine, and since you cannot take back actions already taken, that will require you to start killing off a bunch of enemy systems, even those nasty eyes in the regions I advocate clearing first, to afford the defences I'd already have in your place.

(Fortunately, eyes are fairly easy to kill. Parasite Eyes don't hurt starships, so if you have good starships, and you do as you have Spire Corvettes, taking those down should be trivial (or would be if you unlocked higher tier Spire Corvettes and higher tier sniper turrets).  Plasma Eyes can be nasty against Starships, but they provide overkill vs fleetships and can only target 10 per 2s, so just send in the whole fleet and accept the casualties. Threating Eyes threaten, and who cares, that's just more chaff. Nuclear Eyes should be hacker-sabotaged, and sabotage is, of course, a completely acceptable solution to any Eye threat.)


EDIT: It is tempting to think of Mil3, boosting strength by 100%, and Log3, reducing enemy speed by 50% as roughly equivalent. Nothing could be further from the truth. It depends entirely on the firing range of hostile ships, the location within the gravity well of the station, and on whether the time that is won from the use of logistics stations is put to good use elsewhere. And since time is the single most valuable currency in most strategy games, that should be possible.  One classic example: First defending one planet with ALL HBC turrets backing up its regular defences, then as an exo passes that planet and continues into a logistics corridor, tear down any surviving HBCs and build them in the next planet on the line of advance, until they are in the final system. In case of limited resources, just do this with HBC IIIs and IV and leave the others in the system where you expect greatest time-on-target.)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 10:20:21 pm by Peter Ebbesen »
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.

Offline Zincat

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2014, 12:05:18 pm »
Thank you for taking the time to answer my post. There's a lot here that's useful to me, and I will elaborate further.

Anyhow, I hope there's something in what I've written that will be of use. Much of my frustration is because I simply don't see the logic of the way you've expanded and spent knowledge, apart from a vague feeling that you've been focusing on limiting your AIP expenditure over setting up a good defensive and economic network.
Third, you have conquered... unwisely. Lord knows that your map isn't trivial to make sense of, but you seem to have been going for a maximum of exposure to hostile threats with minimal safe interior space and minimal use of defensive depth. Nearly everything is either exposed or is one jump from the frontier. Consider the top-left corner of the map as the obvious example: What possible reason do you have for NOT occupying Causeip and Ashteio? They are both safely behind your chokepoint defences, as is the Superterminal world on Qachar. Likewise, along the left edge of the map, you've got six hostile systems on or above the Ginwig-Ginyae-Chrsi line that are mixed in with yours and, if you took control of them all, could be defended directly by only two chokepoints, Ginya-Chrsi, while allowing you to reduce defences in three current chokepoints behind the line. If you take down the Superterminal, you can certainly afford it, and it will give you lots of knowledge. (And if you then take Weppan-Hartus-Neiner, you own the entire western side and have an enviable defensive setup with lots of space for the economic stations you've already paid to unlock, giving you only a few contacts with the enemy and the energy to build strong distributed defences in every system leading to your homeworld)

Now, this is probably exactly to the point. And my major problem I think. I am used to playing extremely low AIP games. And I mean, extremely low. Like, less than 100 aip before killing the first ai homeworld. As such, while I did finish fallen Spire once before (on much lower settings), I probably went about it in an inefficient way, taking too few worlds.
This time I tried to conquer more of them than usual, but apparently I fell back into my usual way to play and only got a few more than what I usually do. It's probably silly for fallen spire, but the thought of AIP going over 400 is so ALIEN to me, I just can't put it into words :)
And this resulted in a very resource starved game, which bring me to the next points...

Fourth, regards to knowledge, one obvious thing to note is that you've skimped on turrets in favour of spending on your economy on the per-galaxy capped forts and shields. 28000 knowledge on your economy, but only 17,750 on turrets? Okay, I understand the Mil3 stations. I even understand the Econ3 stations, despite you controlling so little territory that isn't on the frontline and hence has military stations that you don't get much benefit from the economic stations (my solution would be to conquer more territory as noted above, taking down the Superterminal along the way), but regardless of that you don't control anywhere near enough territory for it to be worth additionally spending 9k on Harvester upgrades, and yet you've done so.

Fifth, USE THE ZENITH TRADERS! You've played 14h and your number of toys is depressingly low. Your homeworld does not have the full set of obligatory Trader Toys - I refer to the Radar Jammer II, the Armor Inhibitor, the Armor Armor Booster, the Black Hole Machine... They should all be placed under a forcefield behind the home station, so they can live in peace and not be destroyed during construction should anything hit the home's forcefields. Nor have you built the Orbital Mass Drivers or the Superfortress. Sure, these toys are expensive, but they are powerful and if you cannot think of anywhere else to put them, the homeworld is also a nice location for those toys (and, in fact, with you having to defend on so many fronts, a very good idea for defence in depth as exos coming from any direction will end up there after hitting only two systems). You've got the traders enabled, why on earth not make good use of them? Between the exos and the regular waves, you'll have more than enough metal income to build their toys. (If you feel you have too low a metal income, just increase your AIP by conquest and the increased wavesize will do the rest).

These two are the direct consequences of the fact that my game has been very resource starved. I didn't use any trader toys yet because my income was low, and I needed it elsewhere. And the econ stations and harvesters unlock were only done lately, in an effort to increase said resource income. I did plan to put down toys and unlock more turrets when I had a better income.

I do not regret unlocking the shields, but regarding forts, that is probably just a plain mistake I did. I was used to having turrets with galaxy-wide caps. It's only recently that they became planet-capped. As such, I unlocked forts before thinking it through very well, and also probably thinking of strong chokepoints to defend (once again, courtesy of my take-as-few-planets-as-possible usual approach)


Second, a small but obvious  thing - you are placing your gravity turrets poorly, directly along the line of advance of enemy ships. You should put them along lines parallel to the line of advance such that they merely overlap it (which means that short ranged enemy ships won't even be able to hit the turret without detouring from the advance) and, since you've got Zenith Traders, if you slap down a Radar Jammer 2 as well even most long-range enemy ships will be unable to hit the turrets without departing from the line. Which they eventually will, of course, but time the enemy wastes is time you can take advantage of - and which your defences surely will.
Now, I wouldn't unlock those if I only had 9k to use - I'd go primarily for Sniper, Spider, and Missile turrets, and I'll tell you why - I love defensive depth. Key to using defensive depth is knowing that it is never about stopping the enemy before the final destination (in this case, your homeworld, later in the game a spire city), it is about inflicting attritional damage on the way, and THAT is mostly about maximizing time-on-target for defences. If you try to stop the juggernaut head on in each system before reaching the next, it will roll over you. Even worse, if it comes in multiple successive groups (which exowaves do) and the first group roll over your defences, the second wave may not even suffer attritional casualties when it is its turn to pass through the system!
Putting the station for the defences directly on top of the exit wormhole leading to your homeworld as you've done almost everywhere ensures that the station will be wiped out before the enemy progresses any further; Putting all your turret defences in a standard Kahuna-style defence ensures that they get wiped out too. This is inefficient. The purpose of a good defence in depth is to take advantage of that depth to bleed the opponent while limiting your own casualties.

Rather, for attrition purposes, the station should either be located as far as possible from the route the enemy is traveling (and be a logistics station) with all sniper and spider turrets placed far from the anywhere anybody passing through would come (e.g. behind the station), with other turrets placed to cover the route passersthrough traverse at maximum distance, OR be placed close by the exit wormhole but to the side of the line of advance, such that defences set up protect the station also overlap the line of advance to the wormhole but enemy ships are capable of traversing the line without having to fully destroy the station+forcefields. (The second should be your preferred for systems that double as current tanking locations with hostile wormholes).
EDIT: It is tempting to think of Mil3, boosting strength by 100%, and Log3, reducing enemy speed by 50% as roughly equivalent. Nothing could be further from the truth. It depends entirely on the firing range of hostile ships, the location within the gravity well of the station, and on whether the time that is won from the use of logistics stations is put to good use elsewhere. And since time is the single most valuable currency in most strategy games, that should be possible.  One classic example: First defending one planet with ALL HBC turrets backing up its regular defences, then as an exo passes that planet and continues into a logistics corridor, tear down any surviving HBCs and build them in the next planet on the line of advance, until they are in the final system. In case of limited resources, just do this with HBC IIIs and IV and leave the others in the system where you expect greatest time-on-target.)

These are all good points that I did not think of or that I thought of but discarded. Once again, partly probably due to my usual approach, and partly because of noobishness. I am used to having like 10 systems in all, so staggered defenses over multiple systems are really not my usual deal. I am used to isolated planets here and there, it's rare for me to have 2 planets next to each other.

Now, after all is said and done, this game has suffered a rather interesting amount of setbacks. But I don't want to abandon it yet. I think I'm going to try to salvage it once again. I will probably go on a conquering spree to reduce my fronts (contradicting my every instinct of keeping the aip low, I tell you :)), and setting up the defenses over multiple systems, trying your suggestions in the meanwhile.

Thanks a lot for the suggestions, once again.

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2014, 12:37:33 pm »
Third, you have conquered... unwisely. Lord knows that your map isn't trivial to make sense of, but you seem to have been going for a maximum of exposure to hostile threats with minimal safe interior space and minimal use of defensive depth. Nearly everything is either exposed or is one jump from the frontier.
This is one of the biggest issues I've seen with your save. When playing on FS funneling the AI into defensive chokepoints is a MUST, whether they are in-depth corridors like Peter suggests, or building massive superchokes designed to face tank the like  I do, you MUST funnel the AI or the exo forces will destroy you. Typically you want to start funneling the AI before you even build your first Spire City. This is done by destroying Warp Gates, so that waves and exos can only come from the direction you want them to come. Easiest method I have found is to neuter the AI worlds where you don't want the AI to spawn exos/send waves from, going back 2-3 hops at least. This also greatly reduces/eliminates any potential border aggression from those locations, because a neutered world can support MUCH less units. Admittedly on the map you are running its not going to be easy, there isn't a simple way to really narrow things down to just 2-3 ingress points that I can see. I usually play around maps where I can do so easily, (Maze and X are my favorites) because I always run with 4-5 exo sources turned on. Peter's advice seems to help a great deal though.

One thing for future games, when building Spire Cities, if they are going to be a dedicated chokepoint/an ingress into your territory, you want to build them pure defensive. One Habitation Center and five Spire Reactors. For cities that are NOT going to be in direct line for the AI, build them with one Hab and five Shipyards. This might delay how quickly you build up your FS fleet, but it maximizes both the defensive power of Spire Cites, while also maximizing how many shipyards you can build. Reactors do NOT need to be on the same planet as the shipyard. If you have 10 reactors across 2 cities, you can build 2 more cities with 5 shipyards each. And since shipyards can NOT mount modules, they have no place on the front lines.

Fourth, regards to knowledge, one obvious thing to note is that you've skimped on turrets in favour of spending on your economy on the per-galaxy capped forts and shields. 28000 knowledge on your economy, but only 17,750 on turrets? Okay, I understand the Mil3 stations. I even understand the Econ3 stations, despite you controlling so little territory that isn't on the frontline and hence has military stations that you don't get much benefit from the economic stations (my solution would be to conquer more territory as noted above, taking down the Superterminal along the way), but regardless of that you don't control anywhere near enough territory for it to be worth additionally spending 9k on Harvester upgrades, and yet you've done so.

For that 9k price you could, for instance, have unlocked Needler 4, Laser 4, Missile 3+4 for 5500, and throw in Sniper III and IV for 3500. I daresay they'd help you more than your harvester upgrades, given that you are to a large degree living on salvage income anyhow.
Another VERY good point. When playing FS, no matter if you are building multiple ingress points or a single one. Defenses are MUCH more valuable than econemy, and to a point even more so than mobile ships. Now I would agree with your choice about shields, especially since FS shields require shield research (BUT only normal shields, hardened shields weren't needed yet IMO), forts were a mistake, a big one IMO. Unless you can narrow the AI down to only one possible way into your territory, which on this map is utterly impossible, turrets are going to be infinitely more valuable.

As Peter pointed out, turrets are per planet,  and forts are galaxy capped. This means that turrets can cover MUCH more area, limited only by your energy. And even with my games, where I can usually narrow the AI down to just one way in at me, I still prefer turrets over forts. Forts work best IMO, if you cap every single mark on the same planet. This uses A LOT of energy. And while forts can be very powerful, they are utterly useless against their counter. Which is one of the most dangerous types of AI Fleet Ships, Bombers. Bombers are the bane of your shields/your FS Fleet, and forts cant do a thing to them, or anything with a polycrystal hull. The only for that can harm Bombers/Polycrystal is the Mod Fort, but you only get ONE of those.

A full cap of all normal forts costs 1.17 MILLION energy. You can build a full cap of every single per planet turret, excluding Mark V versions, for only 729,600. You can throw in a full cap of HBC turrets, which are per galaxy cap, for only an additional 79,800. This is BELOW the energy cost of the forts, and while I didn't crunch the numbers DPS wise I am certain that it easily out does the forts. To top this off, turrets have a Turret hull type, which almost nothing gets a bonus against. (H/Ks are the only thing I can think of that does.) Also, no turrets get penalties to damage against any type of hull, and every single per planet turret gets a bonus against a set of hull types, with Spider/Sniper turrets getting a 5x and the others getting 3x bonuses. So, all combined, turrets have lower energy costs, higher combined DPS, able aim at more targets due to sheer greater numbers, and have no hull penalty/have hull bonuses. Uh... Keith, I think Forts just got rendered moot by turrets. Whoops?

LOTS OF VERY GOOD STUFF ABOUT DEFENSE IN DEPTH!!!!

Um... Eh.... Nope. I got nothing for this. I use the "Yeah, lets see you break THIS WALL!" style of chokepoint, designed to simply stop exos cold there and then. So I offer no opinion other than "sounds good to me." I will state that I also use a backup chokepoint, exactly 3 hops behind my main choke, armed with every single per planet defense I can easily afford to give it, using another defensive Spire City with MKIII Mill station, because there are times when the unfortunate happens and something gets through the wall. I may be crazy, but I'm also crazy prepared. I don't duplicate the trader toys, even if I do have the resources, because i save that for expanding the chokepoint forward.

Hey Keith, can we have COMPLETED trader toys drop remains that start at 1%? Pretty please? I get annoyed waiting for the Zenith to finally come back in the rare case the choke gets over run.

Edit: Guess I took too long typing.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 12:40:00 pm by ZaneWolfe »

Offline Toranth

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Re: Fallen spire, 8.3/8.3, first city exowave woes
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2014, 01:01:34 pm »
Hey Keith, can we have COMPLETED trader toys drop remains that start at 1%? Pretty please? I get annoyed waiting for the Zenith to finally come back in the rare case the choke gets over run.
Sorry to swerve off topic, but THIS!  THIS receives my enthusiastic support.  Especially in a highly connected map, where the Trader will sometimes cross through adjacent systems multiple times - mocking me, I know it...