Author Topic: All my base are belong to cross planet  (Read 4338 times)

Offline allmybase

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All my base are belong to cross planet
« on: April 12, 2010, 02:58:20 pm »
I thought I was doing good  ;D

Have about 12 planets of strong economy, got my ingress points covered.

Was going to branch out to find some ARS, then at the 5 hour mark I get the cross planet attack message (1800 ships) O_O

I'm very scared so I cap out turrets and all my ships at my one key point.

It so happens that every single one of the cross planet shows up at that one planet (in the QA it says it's usually diffuse throughout the galaxy).

Even though I've capped out turrets and every ship I can available, I got stomped so hard it wasn't even funny (they still had 700 or so ships left after the strike).

The AI is level 7 and they are on 350 progress (homeworld + baron). The CPA sent all mark IIs.

I do have a save with 12 minutes left to countdown on the cross planet and 11k knowledge stored up. I don't really want to, but should I invest hardcore into big turrets? And just figure to take more planets later to replenish the knowledge???

It seems like every time I think I'm doing good, the game throws a new wrinkle into the equation  :'(

It's fun, but frustrating  :o 8) >:( ;) :D

Offline x4000

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2010, 03:08:01 pm »
Definitely a tough game, that is for sure, especially on those upper difficulties.  An 1800 CPA usually is not that difficult, even if it shows up all at one place, though -- because if you are seeing it all concentrated at one spot, then the AI has a real weakness to missiles -- lightning, etc.  If you get a scout on the planet that they will come through to get to your choke point, then you can watch them gather around the wormhole.  When the timing is right, send a few lightning warheads through, and you'll have a good shot of taking out several hundred AI ships per warhead.

Alternatively, you can dump an EMP through that wormhole, thus paralyzing all their ships, and then send your mobile stuff through to wreak some havoc while they are unable to fight you.  You can even do a combination of the two, if you want.

Regarding the other turrets, it depends on what you have unlocked and what they have.  Laser turrets are knowledge-cheap and very effective if you don't have them.

Also, are you building fleet starships to help boost the other ships of yours around.  Even just the knowledge-free light starships can make big difference.

Due to a temporary bug in the multiplayer CPAs a while back (before 3.060), two of my alpha testers and myself died to a 9,600 ship CPA.  That was on a Snake map, so of course we had a long series of bottlenecks since all the planets are just in a line.  We managed to get them down to around 2,600 ships before they killed us, which was pretty cool (and that was without any warheads).  The starships were pretty instrumental in that one.  I think we could have actually won that one if we had just nuked one of the planets they were on.

Of course, now that that bug is fixed, in multiplayer the equivalent CPA would only be around 6,000 ships, which we would have handled. CPAs are usually a huge test of your fortifications, but it depends on how diffuse versus how concentrated they are as to what the threat is really like.  All that depends on the specific map seed, etc.

Oh -- and Riot Starships.  You could use those to really wreak some havoc on the engines of the ships in the CPA.  Don't stand and fight, if you try that tactic, but rather have your ships leading the AI ships away.  The AI ships will be dropping out of the battle like flies thanks to the engine losses, and since you are moving away they then can't shoot at you anymore.  Then you're left with a long trail of angry, immobile AI ships to clean up, but you can do it on your terms.

Hope that helps!
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Offline allmybase

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2010, 03:28:18 pm »
I have the 5 cap of basic starships that require no knowledge, and laser turrets researched. (I was aware of the usefulness of the basic starship and I researched the cheap laser turret early on beacuse I needed more cap to defend my ingress points)

I went back to the save and researched lightning turrets and dumped all 33 around that one wormhole. (pretty cheap investment, 500 knowledge for a lot of aoe)

Now get this -->

This time, the AI doesn't send the wave through the wormhole.

Now I have a threat meter of 2800 on that planet (I emped + destroyed their command center to try to coax them into attacking me), but they still haven't attacked me, and I fastforwarded 30 minutes into the future.

What should I do? - I don't think I can deal with the pressure of 2800 threat while trying to expand - and get this, one of the ARS is on that planet they're massing on. I can't just ignore it or nuke it.

And they stacked their whole 3000+ ships on the one wormhole. Should I just eat AI progress and send lightnings in? I was really really hoping they'd send their troops in and we'd have a fantastic fight with my lightning turrets, but the AI changed his mind when I reloaded to my previous save -_-

Offline x4000

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2010, 03:35:16 pm »
Hmm, that is intersting -- you could always send in a few of your military ships and see if that stirs them up.  That's what I would try doing.  Incidentally, you actually can nuke a planet with an ARS on it, if I'm not mistaken; I believe those are nuke-proof.  It's definitely the case that the AI won't do the same thing every time if you reload a save, especially if you do something different, so that is something to be aware of.  Sounds like you have a good shot at making this one work out, though.
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Offline allmybase

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2010, 04:18:09 pm »
*cries*

So I reload again and this time the computer sends the wave in, I barely push it back (lightning turrets hurray!) except this time in addition to the main thrust he decides to send about 700 ships to the weakest end of my resource chain (my only defense was 20'ish turrets because I gate raided and nothing was really coming through after that so I figured it was ok).

So these 700 ships rip through my economy, burning up my reactors and such.......deactivating my turrets....and I can't build my fleet back up and I don't think what's left of my fleet (300'ish) ships can beat 700 massed mkiis.

 :-[

Lose lose situation. I had to throw everything and the kitchen sink to beat back the main thrust, but then his back thrust comes in and upends all  my energy and I can't rebuild in time to deal with it.

Offline x4000

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2010, 04:29:54 pm »
See?  That's why this AI is more fun than those in other RTS games.  That right there is what "all the fuss" is about, really.  It hurts when it happens and you aren't ready, but knowing that the AI might do that sort of thing adds a flavor and vibrancy back to the game that you wouldn't get any other way, with a more braindead AI.

Definitely seems like a lose-lose in that specific scenario.  You can also try reloading again and seeing if you can get a better outcome from playing before that, but as you change tactics the AI is likely to, as well.  Hopefully it is still fun though -- and it's stuff lie this that was why I was suggesting difficulty 5 or 6 before.  This sort of thing is really fun and cool if you're prepared for it (and seriously why a lot of people love the game), but when you're just starting out that can be "fun" with quotes.

I don't have any extra meaning in there at all -- again, play how you like, and this isn't an "I told you so."  Overall sounds like you've been learning a ton, really improving, and having a lot of fun overall also.  Staying at diff 7 accelerates that process, so as long as it's fun that's great.  Those CPAs can be an unusual spike in challenge, though (or not, again, depending on the player's play style).

Wish I had some more advice for you on this one, but on this scenario at the moment, I honestly think you've got a good handle on things and what your options are.  Past a certain point it's just "die," but that's not what I mean.  When considering the 12-minutes-before CPA save, you've got a much better picture of the full strategic landscape in this specific scenario, I think.  I think it is winnable, but you are in a tough position to a certain extent.  Honestly, I wouldn't have gone with the lightning turrets for this one, but that's just me.
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Offline Blahness

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2010, 04:36:11 pm »
I'd like to take a look at the save myself, TC.  Could you post the save 12 minutes before the CPA?

Having just dealt with a 12k AI ship invasion the other day, I'm wondering if I can crack this CPA.
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Offline allmybase

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2010, 05:03:03 pm »
Well I think I just had to take my lumps.

I reloaded the game and braced myself, this time I created backup power sources at my bottnecked planets (behind my homeworld, completely inaccessible), I said ok whatever I'm going to lose 8 out of 12 command stations.

The computer decided to go with double thrust again. The main attack was absolutely brutal - I burned up my entire ship count and even though I destroyed probably 2000+ units there that had come in, their attacks all over managed to unsupply that planet so my turrets went out. I retreated anything left back to my homeworld and started making more turrets, and I had to build about 20 crystal manufacterers to deal with my ridiculously low crystal (like 5,000 crystal left and capped on metal lol).

He again sent 700 ships underhanded to my weakpoint of my resource chain so I lost everything out there including my only MKIV factory (guess I'll have to search for one of the 2 remaining ones).

But happily I managed to diffuse the threat from a start of 3000 now it's at 100 and he doesn't seem to be sending anything more in. The buck stopped at my homeworld. My whipping boy planet got whipped real bad and I had to retreat all the way back home and thankfully the nonsense stopped there. (and while I was fighting off the CPA, 2 more waves came in, unannounced ones since I had lost all my direct connections to their gates)

Now it's just a question of re-expanding to get my resources back. Once I do, I'll carefully have to trip another 3,000 ship planet (it will feel like cross planet all over except this time "only" from one direction) which has an ARS on it (I really goofed by alarming 2 planets with ARS on them early on, now I have to deal with them....), then go halfway across the galaxy to pick up the other 2 ARS. EEEEEEKKK!!

To blahness unfortunately I overwrote that 12 minute save with my current save where I beat it back but lost 8/12 planets in doing so. I should save the entertaining scenarios  more carefully.

So it's possible I can still take a win out of this if I'm tenacious enough to re expand.

Offline x4000

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2010, 06:10:41 pm »
Very nice! I bet you can pull out a win. The rebuilding is often faster than you might expect,'since the planets are probably to be uncontested for a little while. Nice work!
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Offline allmybase

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2010, 06:47:23 pm »
I need some more advice;

I have now captured all the ARS (zenith b, raptor, bulletproof, electric shuttle, and tank. Started with anti armor)

I have 13k knowledge banked, I expect to raid 10k more safely.

So far just have mark 2 fighters, that's it as far as offensive techs. Well I did wind up purchasing MKIII raid starships too so I have those.

I have about 12'ish resource planets, will go up to 15 or so once I get a staging platform to kill the AI.

Do I have enough knowledge/resource to punch their lights out, or should I get more knowledge?

I have 581 AI progress (killed a few too many planets, a lot of them are fallow because I was a little too zealous, don't feel like expanding into them because they are bordering way too many reinforced planets) with neither AI having died yet.

What techs should I get? I haven't alarmed the AI core planets yet.

One AI is a homeworlder who currently has about 500 core bombers (but I expect him to reinforce with mixed units once I get in there), and the other is a fortress baron who has a measly 62 core ships and other assorted things (he will reinforce obviously too). They both have mass drivers/ion IIs/lignting 3s right inside their wormhole of entry along with ships, so I expect entry to be ridiculously difficult (not to mention the MKIV guard dog planets have about the same stuff....and they are alarmed because I am staging next to the MKIVs).

This looks so ugly - do I have to fool around with their MKIV guards to remove their mass drivers? I won't be able to get any starships inside if I can't, but it will be so ugly if I have to wade through alarmed MKIV planets to kill them.

Should I just nuke the guard planet and have at it?

Offline x4000

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2010, 09:27:06 pm »
Generally I would want more knowledge, I would say.  Having Mark III/IV cruisers and bombers will make such an enormous difference for you, but that's 10k knowledge right there, I think.  Adding some upgraded zenith bombers could also make your assaults a lot easier, but they are pricey to use, to sit depends on what you want to do.  Raptors and tanks might be good in a support role, too.  Out of that mix I would be tempted to downplay shuttles and bulletproof, but it depends on what the AI is using.

If you put 10-20 mark I science labs in a transport, take that transport to an enemy planet, and then send it way out into the middle of nowhere and eject the science labs, you can do flash raids for knowledge on enemy territory with great ease, really.  I am really surprised that you don't have more offensive tech unlocked by being at that AI Progress -- you might want to do some data center raids, too.  To take the final planets, I feel like you're going to need more offensively, but with flash knowledge raiding it's not like that will take forever to prepare for, and you should be able to do that without increasing AIP much or at all further.

Others might recommend other various starship upgrades (MkIII raids was a good choice for your purposes now, I'd say, though), but I tend to be more of a fleet ships kind of guy.  You'll just want to be sure and kill those orbital mass drivers before you bring in your starships to planets that have them (like probably the final planets).

You know, I said ignore the bulletproof fighters, but if the AIs are favoring bombers heavily, then you might want to invest in your various fighter lines a lot, in general.  The zenith bombers are what will help you make shorter work of their fortresses and core forcefields (as well as the home command stations themselves), and thus overall shortening your engagement on those planets, which is why I was suggesting those.

I would suggest using transports to dump bombers right next to the mass drivers that you want to take out.  That way your ships are not alerting the enemy until the last second before they strike, and then if you either scrap those bombers or put them back into the transport to retreat them, the AI won't stay on alert.  They won't stay on alert unless you kill the planet next to them, so you can use that to your advantage.  Do a blitz against them, destroy something that is in your way, and then get the heck out.  They'll be a bit stronger in other areas there from reinforcing, but you'll be one step closer.  Then when the things like the orbital mass drivers are all gone, you can make sure you come back in with overwhelming force and hopefully take them all in one go, or close.  Normally that is not easy to do, but with your combination of pretty powerful secondary ships, if you can muster the energy you have a shot at it, I'd say.

For the guard planet, if you nuke it that will alert the AI homeworld -- very very bad, unless you are poised to kill the home planet.  Better to use transports, or even just to carve a path through the guard planet and just ferry your guys manually (back when transports were too brittle to be useful on core planets, that is what I always used to do -- worked well even then).  Your focus on the guard planet is to make a path through it to the home planet -- doing whatever that entails -- and then otherwise to probably leave it alone.  The longer you fight there, with tons of guys, the more likely you are also alerting the adjacent home planet.

Good luck!  I actually think it sounds like you are in a potentially really strong situation if you play your cards right.
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Offline allmybase

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 02:23:46 am »
Sadly I have to give this fight up. I made a mistake of tripping a MKIV guard planet too soon, it's loaded out with 1k core ships surrounding the wormhole of entry (transports get toasted going through, starships are a long foregone conclusion with that many core ships around the wormhole and a mass driver on top of that. I hopped inside with a fleet of 1400 ships, and I wound up losing all of them and they lost only about 400 core ships around the wormhole. My economy is about +400 metal/crystal net (which is not bad considering how much power I'm consuming), but I think this a losing battle I can't rebuild fast enough. Not to mention I suspect a cross planet again at the 10 hour mark which is coming up. I suppose I could try to force it with lightning warheads but that interceptor means I have to send two at a time.

It had 10 guard posts and I knocked it down to 2 early in the game with my raider ships, but tripping the alarm permanently wasn't a good idea (I cleared a planet adjacent to the mk4 guard earlier in the game). Still way too many ships and core ones at that because they went over the cap.

One of the reasons my AI progress is so high is because one of the ARS stations conveniently had a human captive settlement on it. Classic hard choice situation, you want to go after ARS, but you want to avoid human settlement. I decided I needed the ARS, but I wound up biting it because that planet was in the middle of nowhere and I didn't want to commit resources defending it when I had precious few elsewhere. I could have done more data raiding but it was getting to be too tedious really.

I was really happy with the raptors/shuttles actually. Like you I would have avoided using them in the final showdown, but they were excellent ships for defense.

However defense was getting to be quite problematic at the 7-8 hour mark with 570'ish ai progress. My whipping boy planet was perfectly ok (turret reclaimers are soooooo good, spares your engineers and they make your turrets essentially invincible), but the odd ends into my resource chain I wound up having to research both mark 2 and mark 3 basic turrets to defend them. They started shipping 60+ ships in at a time and mark IIs at that with cloakers, so I kept having to rebuild my resource chain as command stations went down. It was very annoying. I really hated the whole game their stupid space planes kept sneaking by me. I did have the basic tachyon drones but they kept dying when I wasn't watching and things would slip through to my resource points. The raptors were great, but I can't count on having those every game.

I think I made one too many errors, the big one tripping a guard mk4 planet too early, even though I thought I had it down enough by taking out 8/10 guard posts.

I learned a lot though, thanks for all your advice and responses it gave me courage to keep trying. I have to draw the line though I think I can tell this one's too fubared now :P

How many net resources would you say is good enough to think about hitting the final station? I was about +400'ish and capped on both resources when I started to try (then I ran into that MKIV mess of a planet). Is it enough to have the basic 3 ships researched to mark 3? Having more researches is nice obviously but you do get to the point where metal/crystal is a problem if you have to max out every mark of every ship.

Offline ShadowOTE

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 07:51:31 am »
If you can't take the planet, you might consider leapfrogging past it with transports, or building to shipcap and rushing the orbital with your entire fleet inside the transports, then handling the fleet that gets released. Even if it's under a core forefield you can take it fairly easily if you've got enough tier 2 & 3 bombers with ships to cover them, and failing that your economy sounds pretty awesome, so consider adding mercenary bombers once you hit shipcap. That should make things more manageable, and it sounds like you're bunkering down until after a CPA anyway, so you should have time to build up.

Offline superking

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 07:59:11 am »
the solution to raiders is spider turrets. build 5-10 around the command station and they will immobilise anything that decloaks

Offline x4000

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Re: All my base are belong to cross planet
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2010, 10:18:45 am »
I imagine it could still be done -- lightning warheads or otherwise, as you note -- but would be quite a rough ride and maybe not worth the frustration once it is past a certain stage.

Regarding resources, "net income" doesn't hold a lot of meaning to me, because that's not an absolute value; it's going to fluctuate based on what you are doing.  Generally I try to have a gross income of 600/s or 1000/s or more for both resources in that sort of situation, on the assumption that when I am going on the offensive I shift most of my resource outflow to ship production (energy reactors aside), not working on major fixed-position construction works at that time.  But that's actually in multiplayer, more recently; honestly I think in solo, my resources are often double or triple that at times.  Just depends on the scenario, and what your ship types are, etc.  Some are cheaper to build than others, and will cost more to replace. 

Mainly you'll just want to get a sense for what feels right, which is why I never came up with a magic number for this.  An experiment: take your entire fleet, and throw it against the enemy, while having all your constructors set to crank out reinforcements.  When you are done, is your stored metal/crystal unacceptably lower?  Did this take vastly longer to rebuild than your assault took?  If yes to either, you may be too low for your specific ship mix, at least in terms of the "ideal" value as far as the way that I play (others will differ greatly in their opinions).  But if you were able to rebuild in an acceptable time, without obliterating your resource stores in a way you don't like, then you're good to go.  That's how I figure it out in every game, I'm constantly evaluating that as I take planets, and then deciding if I feel too poor or not.
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