AI War - A Guide to Golems

[TechSY730]

Well that's sort of intended, as I understand it. Golems are basically supposed to be overpowered units. Two golems working in tandem should be doubly so.

Yea, that's the basic idea.  They're supposed to be somewhat-over-the-top-hilariously-useful, but in very finite quantity, not-a-renewable-resource, and balanced by the costs/threat involved (unless you play on broken-golems-easy, where the point is to just make your game easier).  And certain combos of golems will be even more significant.

That said, there are limits to how good they should be, or else they diminish the game by making a lot of other choices seem insignificant.  Some time of playtesting by the community is usually the best way to tell whether a nerf is needed

And even on easy:
You still have to get to them (they tend to be on high mark level planets with what seems to be more than usual guard posts, and thus guards)
You still have to repair them (even on easy, they are quite expensive)
You still have to power them on (although the energy costs are not punishing on easy, they still are significant)

[BobTheJanitor]

I still like medium golems the best. I think the fact that you have to take extra worlds just to build the resources to power them, and thus eat that extra AIP increase is more interesting than just dealing with big mean waves. Of course, I also like to play a more expansive game and any excuse to take more worlds than I should be taking is fine with me. I just hate fiddling with transports to shuffle troops across AI worlds that I have no excuse for capturing.

[Wanderer]

I still like medium golems the best. I think the fact that you have to take extra worlds just to build the resources to power them, and thus eat that extra AIP increase is more interesting than just dealing with big mean waves. Of course, I also like to play a more expansive game and any excuse to take more worlds than I should be taking is fine with me. I just hate fiddling with transports to shuffle troops across AI worlds that I have no excuse for capturing.

I just tend to utterly nerf those worlds (including guardian posts) so the least that happens is I have to deal with a little 'annoyed drift' off the command stations.

[sol_ilya]

Artillery golem one of the best player can get. After getting it any AI Fortress becomes trivial. It saves a lot of time. Time means less reinforsments AI gets on next planets before player strikes them. Also very great for destroying enemy guardians and straships making easier to capture planet.

[Shrugging Khan]

Golems (Hard) is actually the easiest. The golems themselves provide an advantage far superior to the disadvantage incurred by occasional, predictable and - with the golems - easily defelcted wave.

[PokerChen]

While we're balancing the golems, we should discuss the relationship between artillery golems and spirecraft penetrators, as they can be used to take down similar targets.  From my perspective, I never build penetrators once I have an arty... Checking the reference files (don't have one at the moment), 100M damage every 8 seconds implies that AI eyes and fortresses are pretty dead after 30 seconds. The DPS-factor IMO obsoletes most uses of a stack of penetrators.

What if we lowered its damage to 50M~80M per shot? This is still way more than the health of most starships and guardians, and makes the common speed-bumps less of a push over when you have one (or four... I did.)

I do play on hard golems+spirecraft. The arty golem is laughable on the AI side... I'll have to wait until the AI summons another arty golem to see how it fares against my defenses (with the primary fleet absent), and check if it (A) really doesn't shoot forcefields, and (B) damages well.

Well that's sort of intended, as I understand it. Golems are basically supposed to be overpowered units. Two golems working in tandem should be doubly so.

Yea, that's the basic idea.  They're supposed to be somewhat-over-the-top-hilariously-useful, but in very finite quantity, not-a-renewable-resource, and balanced by the costs/threat involved (unless you play on broken-golems-easy, where the point is to just make your game easier).  And certain combos of golems will be even more significant.

That said, there are limits to how good they should be, or else they diminish the game by making a lot of other choices seem insignificant.  Some time of playtesting by the community is usually the best way to tell whether a nerf is needed

I would suggest that players should definitely try actively milking AI planets for free zombie-ships, and seeing the difference it makes in defending connected worlds.

[keith.lamothe]

While we're balancing the golems, we should discuss the relationship between artillery golems and spirecraft penetrators, as they can be used to take down similar targets.  From my perspective, I never build penetrators once I have an arty... Checking the reference files (don't have one at the moment), 100M damage every 8 seconds implies that AI eyes and fortresses are pretty dead after 30 seconds. The DPS-factor IMO obsoletes most uses of a stack of penetrators.

But what if the target is 3 hops away through armed-to-the-teeth AI planets?  Can you actually get an Arty there?  In less time than the permacloaked penetrators?  If so, I see your point.

Another thing to bear in mind, though, is that spirecraft and golems are not always on together.  Golems are individually more powerful, but you aren't guarunteed to get any particular type of golem in a galaxy, or guarunteed for a golem of a particular type to be in a remotely-feasible-to-capture location, etc.  Spirecraft are more flexible on all counts.  If the penetrators were obviously better than the Arty, I'd feel we'd done something wrong

[BobTheJanitor]

I think penetrators lost their perma-cloak a few patches back when people were driving several caps of them to the AI homeworlds and winning without ever taking their fleets there. It's been a while since I've used one, though, so I may be remembering that wrong.

[keith.lamothe]

I think penetrators lost their perma-cloak a few patches back when people were driving several caps of them to the AI homeworlds and winning without ever taking their fleets there. It's been a while since I've used one, though, so I may be remembering that wrong.

Oh, right.  Hmm, yea, that would definitely change the equation.

[zoutzakje]

arty feels good as it is now. from 30 secs to 8 secs reload time. I might actually consider getting one somewhat earlier in the game now, instead of just using it for sniping off a Core CPA or Core Raid engine guard post.

[atomjack]

I have to confess, I'l slightly puzzled by the Artillery-Golem hate. OK, I'd rather have a Cursed Golem given the choice, but the ability to take down AI fortresses and eyes quickly (less time for reinforcement buildup) and without any losses whatsoever is a godsend. They're also great for dispatching Mining Golems: power down the AG, take it through the wormhole, target it on the MG, power it up, take it back out. Repeat 30 seconds later and you're done.

With a shot every 8 seconds, they're verging on the overpowered.

The other comment I'd make is on the Botnet Golem. These things would be overpowered even without the zombies - they make nearly all waves trivial with only a touch of micro. 600 bomber IIIs? Dead in less than a minute, with no damage taken in return.

[TechSY730]

I have to confess, I'l slightly puzzled by the Artillery-Golem hate. OK, I'd rather have a Cursed Golem given the choice, but the ability to take down AI fortresses and eyes quickly (less time for reinforcement buildup) and without any losses whatsoever is a godsend. They're also great for dispatching Mining Golems: power down the AG, take it through the wormhole, target it on the MG, power it up, take it back out. Repeat 30 seconds later and you're done.

With a shot every 8 seconds, they're verging on the overpowered.

Yea, 8 seconds is WAY too small for the amount of base power they have.

Instead of increasing the reload time again, how about we bring down the base damage? Someone suggested like 20M (down from 100M), which is still enough to severly hurt anything, and kill most most starships and stuff, but not enough quickly easily charge through the even the toughest stuff with clever micro.

The other comment I'd make is on the Botnet Golem. These things would be overpowered even without the zombies - they make nearly all waves trivial with only a touch of micro. 600 bomber IIIs? Dead in less than a minute, with no damage taken in return.

100% Agreed. They NEED a nerf.

The rational behind the insane base damage per bullet was to ensure that whatever they hit is sure to be zombie reclaimed. However, thanks to the parasite damage bonus system introduced in 5.001, insane base damage is no longer needed to make sure the reclamation happens.

I say allow the parasite damage multiplier system to apply to zombie reclaimers, and bring down the damage of the Botnet golem (and the zombie guardian too, as it has a crazy power for the same reason). The multiplier system should ensure that they can still reclaim stuff, and as the Botnet golem is a Mk. V, it will be getting very favorable multipliers to their reclamation damage.

Of course, energy and AIP costs should go down a little bit with this change, as their average normal DPS has gone down quite a bit, even if their "zombie reclaim" DPS is on a similar order of magnitude thanks to the parasite damage bonuses.

[Hearteater]

I'm pretty sure the Arty's base damage went down, even though it isn't listed in the patch notes.  I don't think it is still doing 100 million.  I think I read somewhere Keith mentioning something like 40 million damage.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm pretty sure the Arty's base damage went down, even though it isn't listed in the patch notes.  I don't think it is still doing 100 million.  I think I read somewhere Keith mentioning something like 40 million damage.

No, I didn't change it.  If folks play with it and find it's overpowered, I'm listening.  Personally I'd prefer it if each golem had a form of usefulness similar in magnitude to where the botnet is, and if necessary increasing cost/danger of using/getting them, rather than bringing their usefulness down.

Not that I'm personally opposed to nerfing the botnet, but I haven't seen a consistent theme of people wanting that.  What I see is a consistent theme of people having fun with the botnet, which is what I want.

[BobTheJanitor]

Not that I'm personally opposed to nerfing the botnet, but I haven't seen a consistent theme of people wanting that.  What I see is a consistent theme of people having fun with the botnet, which is what I want.

Yes, please this. Right now it's a ton of fun to smash worlds with. If people are finding it overpowered, they probably need to crank up their difficulty a notch and see how it feels then. Judging it based on easy golems (or even hard golems, honestly, medium 4 lyfe) or based on playing at diff. 7 when maybe you should be at 8, or whatever, doesn't make for a good comparison. Difficulty is always relative. Golems are big bad units, designed to be played against massive strength on the opposing side. I can play at difficulty 1 and complain that mk I fighters are overpowered.

On the Artillery golem, I think the baseline of comparison should be what sort of DPS it can do. I don't have the exact numbers or I'd look. Big giant shots, when they come 8 seconds apart, may not look so huge any more compared to the DPS of a cap of bombers or whatever.