Author Topic: Some Lava Escape Feedback  (Read 7546 times)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2012, 11:59:25 am »
Was I just lucky?

Yep. It's just as possible that you can jump up a pathway for 5-10 seconds and reach a dead end and that's it. Game over. Your only option is to drop down into the lava and accept your fate. Or use an elusion scroll, of course. If the rooms could be forced to generate in such a way that all the pathways would interconnect and there were no dead ends, that would be fine. I'm fine with dying to bad skill if I can't jump and dodge monsters well enough. Dying to a random room generator is just no fun at all.

I could easily make it generate the rooms with no dead ends.  But... what the heck kind of fun is that.  Then the mission is just "jump jump jump until you're out."  Any monkey can do that. ;)

The thing that makes this challenging is having some dead ends, and ways to get around them.  Did I mention Greater Teleport yet?  You can go right through walls with those.  So that's basically a single "get out of a dead end free" card, without the need for an elusion scroll.  With a lot of the side passages, the dead ends are such that you can't use greater teleport, but assuming that you are moving reasonably fast and have some time to spare, you can double back and go up further.

This sort of thing is either just "how fast can I press the jump key" (which is boring), or it's a mild maze plus that.  I went with the latter, because otherwise this gets made so generalized that it appeals to no one.  For a mission with this sort of premise, I think that it needs to be interesting to the hardcore platformers, because people who don't meet that description will at best be kind of "meh" about it anyway.  And making it of interest to a hardcore platformer means, unfortunately, that anyone else is likely to hate it with the fury of a thousand suns.

And that's actually cool with me, because it's optional content.  Putting it on the world map was a big mistake, though, as that made it seem more prominent than it should have.

As a general route with a game like this, though, there are two specific routes we could take:
1. Make everything rely on only a single skillset that all players will have.
2. Make everything core rely on that single skillset, but have lots of side doglegs where wildly disparate skills might be required and where the normal rules themselves get bent or even horribly broken.


To me, the first route is the way to make a "safe" game, where nobody gets mad about anything and in general people like the entire game or none of it.  But that's not what AVWW has ever been about: we've always wanted it to be a place where you could come to do a variety of things that might or might not appeal to you.  Ideally the percentage of stuff that is so off the beaten track that some folks hate it should be pretty low, and it always has to be optional -- no Dungeon Defenders situations here.

But for someone who doesn't really like platforming type challenges in general to say "I hate this" with the lava escape missions... I'm not really upset about this.  This isn't a bug to me, it means that the challenge is probably about right, and that person can play the many other parts of the game that exist.  The problem comes in if every third mission is a lava escape, or we are requiring you to do them, or whatever.  And right now the lava escapes are appearing more than they should, partly due to just the general low mission variety, plus them being on the world map (bad move on my part).

I hope that helps to clear up the intent here.  Our goals, TLDR, are:
1. Make sure that nobody is ever feeling excluded or wanting to ragequit because they don't like some part of the game.
2. But in no way try to ensure that every player likes every part of the game, because that would mean the game isn't exactly varied.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline The Mimic

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2012, 12:15:45 pm »
I loved the lava parts, the few of them I got to try out. If you had split difficulty I'd probably keep combat average and put platforming on very hard; I love bits that require reflexes, but I hate it when enemies get a ton of health, as it seems to make battles in games long and tiring. Actually, does the difficulty affect health in AVWW? I'm not actually positive.

I think my only complaint was that my friend lept right into a lava mission before me and another friend were ready. We followed him about thirty seconds after he entered and walked into a room of pure magma, screamed like little girls, and left the room again. Actually in retrospect that was hilarious and I wouldn't change a thing!

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2012, 12:17:52 pm »
And that's actually cool with me, because it's optional content.  Putting it on the world map was a big mistake, though, as that made it seem more prominent than it should have.

Is there any other way to spawn optional/secret missions?
How else are you planning on making it less likely for a new player to stumble into one by accident but still make it available to them once they know what they are getting into?

EDIT: Wait, world map? You mean the overworld map? You mean it has an icon for it in the tiles on the overworld map?

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2012, 12:33:49 pm »
Is there any other way to spawn optional/secret missions?
How else are you planning on making it less likely for a new player to stumble into one by accident but still make it available to them once they know what they are getting into?

Secret missions you uncover by walking around in the side view, as opposed to it being one of the 7 missions-that-expire-over-time on the world map.  It warns you profusely before trying this one.  However, the mission type doesn't even get unlocked until you've completed a number of other kinds of missions first, so new players can't accidentally wander into something like this until they have a handle on things in general.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012, 01:45:07 pm »
Quote
  • Lava escape missions can no longer be seeded on the world map as missions. You'll now only find them as secret missions.
  • These are meant to be very punishing for players who like that sort of thing, and as such having them relegated to secret-only status makes good sense.
  • Thanks to many players for complaining about this, including rchaneberg, Terraziel, zebramatt, and BobTheJanitor.

Hey, I wasn't complaining! If it were up to me, these missions would seed everywhere;D

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012, 02:04:48 pm »
Okay, I removed your name from my passive-aggressive release notes. ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2012, 02:08:58 pm »
Hmm, well as long as the "dead ends" aren't too deep (as in, they'll actually allow you to double back), I'm fine with them. But dying to random room generation is just plain bad. Then it becomes a game of luck, not of skill.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2012, 02:36:59 pm »
Hmm, well as long as the "dead ends" aren't too deep (as in, they'll actually allow you to double back), I'm fine with them. But dying to random room generation is just plain bad. Then it becomes a game of luck, not of skill.

It varies, and to some extent I can't control the procedural room generation to that extent.  But that's where greater teleport, elusion scrolls, and so on come in.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2012, 04:01:38 pm »
I feel like the prime whiner on this, so I'm somewhat reticent to continue commenting, but I suppose I'll give it one more go.

Making these missions optional is fine, but that is sort of curing the symptom instead of the disease.

Greater Teleport I have not yet seen in my game. I just have lesser. But greater allowing you to skip through walls seems to me functionally equivalent to just having passageways there. Either you have GT and can get out of a dead end, in which case you might as well be able to walk there, or you don't, and dead ends are dead ends. Is it just balanced around having GT? If it is, then why not just have no dead ends at all? If not, then we come back to the question of how randomly generated dead ends is intended to be fun gameplay.

And elusion scroll use should be considered the same as dying, as far as this particular challenge is concerned. You fail the mission, you end up back at the home settlement, you just don't lose the upgrades. But you sure didn't win.

I hear the argument that it's supposed to be a challenge and only for those who like hard platforming, but I just don't see it. I played umpteen hours of Super Meat Boy (I'll finish that one of these days...), I played all the way through VVVVVV, so I'm not one to shirk tough platforming. But there is a very obvious difference between 'this is doable with precision jumping skills' and 'this is doable if you pick the right tunnel to go up'. One is a skill check, and one is a coin flip.

A skill check version of lava escape would involve something like the end of the original Metroid game. Jumping up teeny platforms where a failed jump leaves you plunging into the rising lava. Skill failure leads to death. What we have now is RNG leads to death.

Anyway, I hope I don't come across as too harsh. I don't want to keep on harping on this endlessly. I just can't let the sentiment that this is not for everyone because it's a platforming challenge go by without comment. At least in my case, that has nothing to do with it. The actual platforming part was dead easy. It's entirely the unavoidable random death part that I'm against.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2012, 04:17:33 pm »
Yea, if the mission requires some sort of rare item in order to not get stuck into an unforeseeable, random "you are going to die" state, that's not really fair unless the game prevents you from trying it without letting you start the mission without that rare item, or strongly warning you ahead of time that you may get screwed over without warning unless you have one of those items. And even with these "safeguards", it is distasteful.

I think the best option is what Moonshine Fox suggested, make it such that the RNG will never generate a dead end too long to be "backtrackable" if you react as soon as you can.

However, if I am reading x4000's comments right, limitations in how the procedural room generation seem to make that infeasible. If that is so, either one of the two things I suggested in the first paragraph need to be done, or how lava escape rooms are generated needs to be totally rethought. (Like, the small platforms idea like in Metroid vs. the realtime maze navigation idea like it is now)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2012, 04:18:47 pm »
I understand very much what you're saying.  Here's my argument against it, put as briefly as I can (it's getting overblown with lots of side rationalization):

1. Speed is of the essence here.  REALLY so.  Just because the lava is 30m under you doesn't mean you're doing okay, it could mean you're about to die for one of several reasons:
a. You're going up a dead end.
b. You have to run across a long horizontal section.
c. You've reached the top and have to search across for the switch.

2. Therefore, you really need to be outpacing the lava by a massive amount, so that you can correct for small amounts of dead ends and so on.  I have been using storm rush and lightning dash as my only tools, and trying never to place any platforms (instead leaping off the little nooks and crannies in the walls).  I have yet to die from these missions on Hero difficulty this way.

3. Ergo, my conclusion is that you're not doing as well as you think you are: if taking one wrong turn leads to death, then that meant you weren't fast enough and it's like you slipped into the lava.  You should have time to turn back from most wrong turns.  In my playthroughs, I turned back an average of 2-3 times, sometimes having to go back to within just a couple of meters of the lava as I did so.  Talk about exciting!  But then I'd quickly outpace the lava again, and hope I wasn't heading down another wrong turn, trying to gain as much speed as I could as I went up.


That's what I'm trying to say: the RNG, in the main, isn't the problem.  Yes, it's theoretically possible it might make some ultra-high passageway (I'm talking more than 2000 pixels) that you go up and can't get down from in time.  That sort of thing might happen in a procedural system, and that is where you need an elusion scroll or greater teleport.  But any passageway less than 2000 pixels high should be recoverable unless it's happening right at the start.

-----------------------------

It may be that we simply need to make death not actually kill you in these missions except on certain difficulties, so that people can play them with less fear.  And it may also be that we need to split combat and platforming difficulties.  That way, on a lower platforming difficulty the platforming-style deaths are not actually deaths.  But on the higher platforming difficulties the deaths are much more likely.  I'm talking about falling damage, deaths from these missions, and so on.

Right now it really is an incongruity that we have only one difficulty level for two such different parts of the game: platforming and combat.  If anything, I worry that these missions are on the easy side at the moment -- for a minute or two of your time, you get the full rewards of a mission.  That alone was reason enough to take them off the world map, really.

When we come to irreconcilable differences in player opinion like this, that's usually a very clear sign to me: we're missing a settings option.  I've seen it time and time again with AI War, and it just underscores how different people are.  I don't think it's a bad thing, it just highlights a current weakness of the game's treatment of platforming in general.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2012, 04:24:06 pm »
That's what I'm trying to say: the RNG, in the main, isn't the problem.  Yes, it's theoretically possible it might make some ultra-high passageway (I'm talking more than 2000 pixels) that you go up and can't get down from in time.  That sort of thing might happen in a procedural system, and that is where you need an elusion scroll or greater teleport.  But any passageway less than 2000 pixels high should be recoverable unless it's happening right at the start.

Oh good. The worst case of the RNG completely screwing you over seems to be the vast exception. That is enough to shut me up. :)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2012, 04:27:54 pm »
It's definitely possible for it to screw you, but I've genned dozens of these in the mapgen tester tool and didn't see any that looked unrecoverable to me.  The case would be if you'd gone down four or five wrong turns instead of one, or were stopping to fight enemies, or were stopping to lay platforms a lot.  You have to pretty much run the whole time, dodge enemy shots just barely, and place wooden platforms without stopping moving if you can do so.  At least on hero difficulty.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Terraziel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2012, 04:32:21 pm »
Your vigorous defense of these missions, has made me try figure out why i died so quickly. I might start a new world just to try a few out.

So my question is this when does the lava start rising? when you enter the room or when you leave invincibility?

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Some Lava Escape Feedback
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2012, 04:39:55 pm »
So my question is this when does the lava start rising? when you enter the room or when you leave invincibility?

Immediately.  Otherwise it would be possible to cheese these in multiplayer by just going into the room with one player standing there in invincibility, and then the other player goes running.  You literally have no time to stop to do anything on these rooms.  It's a very niche sort of taste, and I don't expect everyone to like it, but it reminds me terribly much of O'Reilly's Mine on the Atari and that was a favorite of mine as a kid.  I just love that sort of thing.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!