So I'm downloading that demo...

[x4000]

The problem with walking enemies detecting if they can reach you or not is that that is really complex and CPU-intensive -- it's bad now, but it will only get worse as more complex AIs get added to the game with time.  I don't really want to limit the types of AIs we can do by having them limited by their need to be able to pathfind.

For the most part, frankly this just isn't a walking melee-only world.  Having a couple of enemies like that early into the game is fine, but after a while we need ranged elite versions of them that can't be cheesed because they have abilities more on par with yours.

Take borderlands as another example: the psychos are pretty interesting because they run at you and are scary.  However, once you're used to them (and those pig-reptile things), all you have to really do is run away from them constantly, and be sure not to back off a cliff or into another enemy.  Assuming you do that fine, there's no real risk.  There's a long history of that in FPS games, and in Quake II they managed to make that work really well because of smart level design.  But Borderlands is built like an MMO, and AVWW is procedurally-generated; neither lend themselves well to the sort of Quake II experience with those melee hammer guys that were incredibly freaky and effective.

And beyond that, you mostly get into enemies that are going to have some sort of abilities vaguely on par with yours: the ability to fire from range to at least some extent, or the ability to chase you regardless of small obstacles.  Or, in the case of utahraptors, simply the ability to leap out and surprise you like the hammer guys (the lava flats are built around them being good at that, though they fare less well elsewhere occasional surprise-factor aside).

[Professor Paul1290]

Maybe you could have the invincibility, but have also give them a very weak (really really weak) range attack that breaks up the invincibility every so often that if you had to you could still take them out from afar. I think it would be kinda neat if Skelebot Guards resorted to throwing tiny stones or some other small improvised looking projectile (something rather pathetic looking to keep it clear that they aren't built to be ranged attackers) to temporarily stop the invincibility and give the player something to dodge if they really don't want to be hit at all, but not really to do any serious damage.

It would still be faster to get closer and force them to move but if you had to you could still take them out from a distance but you'd have to time your shots a bit better.

[silverhound]

I like the idea of a weak range attack breaking the invincibility stance, but if it breaks the invincibility stance for only a short period of time it would turn into a timing burden for some, especially with the different projectile speeds.

I suppose that could be resolved by having the grace period differently depending on the combat difficulty you set it on?
That said, i don't know if i like the idea of yet another thing being governed by the combat difficulty setting, some might be really good at dodging and dogfighting, but horrible at timing shots on top of that.

On the other hand giving a creature a high weakness to a damage type, and at the same time an invincibility stance to said damage type only that is broken from time to time by ranged attacks and some other actions could work pretty sweet.
If you couldn't time you'd just deal less damage with another dam type making it take a bit longer but still finish it off.

[KDR_11k]

I'd say have them kneel down and hold their staff like a rifle, then shoot at the player. No damage reduction but maybe any bots that want to run through a kneeling bot should do the same so you get a civil war style phalanx of rifles.

[silverhound]

Hm, isn't their staff rather long for that?

Maybe over the shoulder instead while kneeling down? like a bazooka?
Or perhaps have them fire it a bit upward, mortar style so that the projectile arcs.

[Professor Paul1290]

I'm not too sure about giving them a weapon that looks intentionally built for the purpose since they're supposed to be mostly melee attackers. On the other hand, most of the attacks in the game are magical, so something like a slow firing rifle could be seen as a cheaper alternative (they're too cheap to have the "magic missile launching" hardware installed).

In any case, they probably should do something when they reach the edge and stop. The current behavior doesn't really work too well without the invincibility.
"Thou shall not pass!" has turned into "I am here, SHOOT ME!"

[silverhound]

Haha, i suppose their behaviour indeed does

Anyway, i was just talking about the animation of throwing it on their shoulder, its a pretty big staff, and holding it like a rifle just comes across as a little weird to me.
If you want to place the weight properly, you'd be more inclined to throw it on your shoulder and fire it, also would allow you to keep one hand in the same position as you would when holding it like a melee weapon, unlike when its a rifle (you end up turning your left hand 180 degrees), and sliding the right hand more towards the middle.

[chemical_art]

Fully explored a dungeon: My brief thoughts:

What am I looking for?
How is this helping my goal of defeating the overlord?
These critters in the dungeon, are they respawning? That is annoying?
I've found these consciousness shards, what do they do?
I found 1 upgrade stone. Hooray?
Wait, where am I?
This is a nightmare of a maze.
Advance platform difficulty should more explictly say: You WILL spawn platforms to function. For me, that isn't fun. From the basic descriptions, I thought I would need finer motor control, but in game it seems to mean spamming platforms, which while time consuming not really hard.
How do I get out?
These respawning monsters have me trapped. I've explored everything. I guess I got some items. Yay?
These monsters are much easier then the introduction ones. There are fewer, I love a little more room to roam, and I can kill one with accurate shots without the out of mana message.
I've explored 100% of the dungeon. I guess it is done? No special enemy to fight? Was that 1 upgrade stone my reward?
HOW DO I GET OUT!
I'm low on health.
All the rooms look the same.
I'm bored and don't want to die. I'll quit.


To conclude: I didn't feel like I accomplished anything with my gaming session of 10 minutes or so.

[chemical_art]

Idea:


Have you considered in the tutorial providing say 100 or so of the various resources, then when you reach the settlement explaining how each resource is used to upgrade certain things? You can do mini-upgrades ( that need 50 or so) so the player gets the idea that "if you get this, you then get this..."

This is based on pure speculation on my part, btw. No where has the game explictly said what these resources I've collected do, except for the upgrade shard.

[Volatar]

Just started playing through the tutorial for the first time myself. Everything seems pretty cool until...

COMBAT!BAMBAMBAM! You are now dead.

It all happened so fast 

[x4000]

chemical_art:

Check your planning menu, it gives you ideas for what to explore to find.  Also gives you specific spells to get, etc.

To some extent, this is what the game is: it's big, it's open, you have to set your own goals to help you reach your long term goal of killing the overlord.  If you wander through every room in every random building, that's going to be boring as heck.  It sounds like you just went into some sort of random office building or something and wandered around scavenging.  To some extent you need to meet the game halfway and learn to scout effectively by using the maps, etc.  Which is mostly just about observation and looking at the tooltips, etc.  But also the intro mission kind of covered that, too.

There are, literally, thousands of random buildings in the world.  You could spend 10-30 minutes completely exploring each one.  It would be boring and pointless.  But there are stashes in each one, and you can quickly locate those, get the goods, and get out.  But that's not really the main thrust of the game either, because that's not helping you to actually get more spells.  It's just helping you to get prepared for missions (get more platforms, upgrade stones, etc).

When it turns you loose in the world map for the first time, it pretty well says most of that.  It also suggests you check your planning menu and decide which long-range spells to pursue.  If you just wandered off into buildings instead of doing that... well, that's valid to do, but if you don't enjoy it I suggest something else.

I'm not trying to be flippant, but I'm pretty tired and it sounds like you are as well.  At any rate, it's kind of like AI War: you just looted some random mark I planet that had nothing on it, simply because you saw it.  Not very useful!  I mean, sure, some use -- but not as much as the effort you put into it.  AI War galaxies are miniscule compared to the world in AVWW, so you have to pick and choose your targets even more carefully.  Not because the AI will Get You if you don't, but because you won't get much done if you don't.


Volatar: Combat difficulty adjusts the speed of enemy attacks, as well as damage dealt.  Sounds like it's a bit high for now.

[Volatar]

Volatar: Combat difficulty adjusts the speed of enemy attacks, as well as damage dealt.  Sounds like it's a bit high for now.

Took it down between my post and now. Definitely helped and I was able to kill things, but the skeleton bots still approach you really fast. I had to find one trapped in a corner unable to get me before I could take the time to actually read their name.

[x4000]

Volatar: Combat difficulty adjusts the speed of enemy attacks, as well as damage dealt.  Sounds like it's a bit high for now.

Took it down between my post and now. Definitely helped and I was able to kill things, but the skeleton bots still approach you really fast. I had to find one trapped in a corner unable to get me before I could take the time to actually read their name.

Yep, that's the SHMUP aspect of it.  If you're on the level where they can run at you, though, you've made a tactical error in the intro mission.  You should be on a platform above, firing down at them like a deer hunter from a stand.

Sometimes these guys are unavoidable because there's just nowhere for you to run to, but that's really rare.  And by that point you can have lesser teleport if you really want to.  AND since you always come into each room invincible, you can take infinite amount of time to size things up and plan your next move.  Including swapping around inventory, or even just leaving. 

There's really no reason to ever be down in the midst of a bunch of melee units with them running at you and you not having time to react; the only danger of that is flying units, which tend to move slower in general, or shots that are being fired at you from below, which also tend to move slower (and which you're expected to dodge while watching the enemies and firing back).

The intro mission gives you the advantage of both cover and raised vantage points in pretty much every room (the optional boss bats excepting).  If you don't just jump down into the fracas, you'll find it really different of an experience, I think.  This isn't a brawler.

I really hope that doesn't come off as rude, I'm just very tired and the tone may not be carrying across right.  If it sounded rude, that's not how I meant it.  Anyway, I hope it helps!

[Volatar]

Volatar: Combat difficulty adjusts the speed of enemy attacks, as well as damage dealt.  Sounds like it's a bit high for now.

Took it down between my post and now. Definitely helped and I was able to kill things, but the skeleton bots still approach you really fast. I had to find one trapped in a corner unable to get me before I could take the time to actually read their name.

Yep, that's the SHMUP aspect of it.  If you're on the level where they can run at you, though, you've made a tactical error in the intro mission.  You should be on a platform above, firing down at them like a deer hunter from a stand.

Sometimes these guys are unavoidable because there's just nowhere for you to run to, but that's really rare.  And by that point you can have lesser teleport if you really want to.  AND since you always come into each room invincible, you can take infinite amount of time to size things up and plan your next move.  Including swapping around inventory, or even just leaving. 

There's really no reason to ever be down in the midst of a bunch of melee units with them running at you and you not having time to react; the only danger of that is flying units, which tend to move slower in general, or shots that are being fired at you from below, which also tend to move slower (and which you're expected to dodge while watching the enemies and firing back).

The intro mission gives you the advantage of both cover and raised vantage points in pretty much every room (the optional boss bats excepting).  If you don't just jump down into the fracas, you'll find it really different of an experience, I think.  This isn't a brawler.

I really hope that doesn't come off as rude, I'm just very tired and the tone may not be carrying across right.  If it sounded rude, that's not how I meant it.  Anyway, I hope it helps!

Doesn't come off rude at all. I wasn't expecting a SHMUP when I started the game up. I expected a much slower action-RPG.

And yeah, in one of the two deaths I did screw up and fall into the middle of a group. The other one was different through. They came up a hill from a dark patch and got me. I never saw them.

Is there any kind of zoom out or scrolling around? G for looking just seems to look a little farther left and right, not the more important vertical.

[BobTheJanitor]

Is there any kind of zoom out or scrolling around? G for looking just seems to look a little farther left and right, not the more important vertical.

There is the 'mouse cursor dynamically moves camera' setting in the menu. It will sort of do that, although it's something you have to toggle on and off from the settings menu, and isn't accessible from a hotkey as far as I know. And it's not really something that I can manage to leave active while playing normally, it's just too disorienting and makes aiming pretty tricky.