Author Topic: Couple of pieces of feedback  (Read 2868 times)

Offline Pepisolo

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Couple of pieces of feedback
« on: February 16, 2013, 05:32:50 pm »
Here are a couple of pieces of feedback from a friend.

1) Windstorms should push the player back a bit as well as spells.  For example, when jump you should be pushed back a bit.

2) When moving a survivor to a monster there should be a battle sound of some kind.

That's it.

Oh, he also thought that the animation needed more frames, but yeah that's impossible with the current engine.

Offline x4000

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2013, 06:02:01 pm »
Regarding 1: We did that in the first game, and players found it generally un-fun.

Regarding 2: that's a good point!

Regarding the animation frames, there's basically no limit to how many frames people would want, but short of doing Spriter-style animations its not really feasible.  This project is already almost double its intended budget and sent me $30k into debt to make!
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2013, 06:17:02 pm »
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Regarding 1: We did that in the first game, and players found it generally un-fun.

Regarding 2: that's a good point!

Cool. I'll relay your feedback to him.

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Regarding the animation frames, there's basically no limit to how many frames people would want, but short of doing Spriter-style animations its not really feasible.  This project is already almost double its intended budget and sent me $30k into debt to make!

Ouch! I thought that it was an engine limitation moreso than a budget one. Don't spend any more!

Offline x4000

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2013, 06:42:25 pm »
The engine can do whatever, but it's kind of a question of scale.  If we wanted to have a single character with literally 5,000 frames of animation the engine could handle that easily on a midrange computer.  But if we wanted to have 140+ characters/enemies with 5,000 frames, no way.  That couldn't all be loaded into RAM at once with any speed, and the disk space requirements (as well as the cost of creating the assets, of course) would be horrendous.  As it stands, the game has in the neighborhood of 10,000 individual animation frames if you count all the particle effects, monsters, characters, and so on.

Anyway, yeah; we're okay financially, and this is frankly a business where the costs are up-front and the rewards come later -- or not at all, depending on the success of the game in question.  Mainly what hangs in the balance with Valley 2 is the future employment of a good chunk of the Arcen staff, because I'm already stretched to the limit financially to get where we are.  In addition to the debt I've so far sold $25k of stock this year (holdings I had in other companies, I mean; I'm still the sole owner of Arcen), and my personal income for the year so far is thus about -$40k.

I'm super cheerful about where we are and what we've accomplished, though.  I mention the above not to be alarmist or anything remotely thus, but if anyone hints that we might not have put everything we had into this, I'm going to have to do some primal screams into a pillow. ;)  It was the same with Valley 1; we wound up driving to -$6k with the creation of that game.  Actually, I'm still out more than $100k from having made that first Valley game, but made the sequel anyway because I believe in it.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2013, 06:46:30 pm »
All in all, it's cost me about $600k to make these two games, and so far they've earned about $400k combined.  Ish.  But thanks to staff royalties and so forth, I'm actually farther in the hole than that going into this.  But I very much expect to at least break even on the games by summer, if not actually make a little money.  If it were not for the great success of AI War even after four years, Arcen wouldn't still be here after Tidalis and then Valley 1.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2013, 06:49:26 pm »
I mention the above not to be alarmist or anything remotely thus, but if anyone hints that we might not have put everything we had into this, I'm going to have to do some primal screams into a pillow. ;)
I think deploying the eagles in the general direction of said hints would be far more effective.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2013, 06:55:55 pm »
That too.  I'll just give them directions to eagle-face forest and things will work out naturally on their own. ;)
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2013, 07:43:14 pm »
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The engine can do whatever, but it's kind of a question of scale.  If we wanted to have a single character with literally 5,000 frames of animation the engine could handle that easily on a midrange computer.  But if we wanted to have 140+ characters/enemies with 5,000 frames, no way.  That couldn't all be loaded into RAM at once with any speed, and the disk space requirements (as well as the cost of creating the assets, of course) would be horrendous.  As it stands, the game has in the neighborhood of 10,000 individual animation frames if you count all the particle effects, monsters, characters, and so on.

Yeah, I see. One slight error I think you might have made, though, is going a little bit overboard on the number of monsters when you could have been investing a few more frames in the player character animations. I think it would have been better overall if you could have trimmed the enemy count a little so that a few more character animations could have been put in place -- and I'm only talking basic stuff like aiming vertically and diagonally here. 

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Anyway, yeah; we're okay financially, and this is frankly a business where the costs are up-front and the rewards come later -- or not at all, depending on the success of the game in question.  Mainly what hangs in the balance with Valley 2 is the future employment of a good chunk of the Arcen staff, because I'm already stretched to the limit financially to get where we are.  In addition to the debt I've so far sold $25k of stock this year (holdings I had in other companies, I mean; I'm still the sole owner of Arcen), and my personal income for the year so far is thus about -$40k.

Interesting stuff, Chris. Thanks for being so candid about the Arcen finances. Needless to say, I hope that AVWW2 turns out to be a tremendous success for the company and crew.

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I'm super cheerful about where we are and what we've accomplished, though.  I mention the above not to be alarmist or anything remotely thus, but if anyone hints that we might not have put everything we had into this, I'm going to have to do some primal screams into a pillow.

I don't think that's in any doubt. Certainly not from anyone who frequents the forum or views your regularly updated changelogs. You guys certainly work hard! Even if I had your programming talent and experience I would probably work 10 times slower.

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If it were not for the great success of AI War even after four years, Arcen wouldn't still be here after Tidalis and then Valley 1.

AI War is regarded as something of an indie gem, so hopefully it'll continue to sell for a good many more years ( I only bought my copy a few weeks ago!).

Offline x4000

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2013, 07:46:05 pm »
Cheers!

In terms of enemy count, I don't think that would have made much difference, honestly.  We could have done with fewer characters and more frames on them, if anything.  It takes different talents to do the humanoids and the monsters, and we couldn't have just shifted the monster folks to the humans.
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2013, 08:00:09 pm »
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In terms of enemy count, I don't think that would have made much difference, honestly.  We could have done with fewer characters and more frames on them, if anything.  It takes different talents to do the humanoids and the monsters, and we couldn't have just shifted the monster folks to the humans.

I was thinking more in term of your engine being able to hold the extra frames in RAM... or some other computer chippy thing. Yeah, probably less characters, more frames would have been the way to go. You could have then added extra characters as DLC packs or something in the future. Oh well, it is what it is. Still a vast improvement over the original graphics, although personally I didn't mind them too much. I quite liked AVWW, actually. I don't think it deserved some of the bad reviews it got.

Offline x4000

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2013, 08:05:29 pm »
Oh, with the resolutions we're using now we actually have 5x or more times the RAM we need.  With the monsters we were smart this time around, and they are generally smaller.  With Valley 1 we were bumping up against RAM limits because the monsters were 8-32 times larger (in terms of texture size) than most of the monsters here.  In this case there was literally no technical limitation for angled shooting frames at all, I just didn't find them to be a priority compared to other things.  For better or for worse.
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2013, 08:10:54 pm »
Oh, with the resolutions we're using now we actually have 5x or more times the RAM we need.  With the monsters we were smart this time around, and they are generally smaller.  With Valley 1 we were bumping up against RAM limits because the monsters were 8-32 times larger (in terms of texture size) than most of the monsters here.  In this case there was literally no technical limitation for angled shooting frames at all, I just didn't find them to be a priority compared to other things.  For better or for worse.

Interesting. Oh, well, hopefully most people won't mind, fingers crossed. You've get a decent game I think, deserves to sell at least reasonably. Good luck with the launch.

Offline x4000

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2013, 08:11:50 pm »
I appreciate it.  Personally I'm super proud of it, but we'll see how things go!  I really appreciate all your enormous help through the process with this.
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2013, 08:17:11 pm »
I appreciate it.  Personally I'm super proud of it, but we'll see how things go!  I really appreciate all your enormous help through the process with this.

Thanks! It's been fun and interesting for me, although I am a little feedbacked out at the moment. Thanks for listening so intently to everyone's feedback. Not many games companies do.

Offline Ashnal

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Re: Couple of pieces of feedback
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2013, 10:06:06 pm »
I appreciate it.  Personally I'm super proud of it, but we'll see how things go!  I really appreciate all your enormous help through the process with this.

Thanks! It's been fun and interesting for me, although I am a little feedbacked out at the moment. Thanks for listening so intently to everyone's feedback. Not many games companies do.
Heh, if I didn't know any better, I would say they were paying you :)
Yeah, I hope Valley 2 does much better than the original.  Arcen deserves to prosper, and to continue making excellent games!