7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.

[Cinth]

The past few patches have been a continual set of nerfs to the AI that I don't think were warranted or necessary.

People keep playing on difficulties higher than they should be, then complaining that they can't win. We keep nerfing the game until this kind of thing is possible.

Unless people are losing on 1/1, I'm not sure why we constantly need to keep nerfing the AI.

And those nerfs are where? I looked back to the beginning of the month in the notes and didn't find anything significant.  If anything the AIs standard options got buffed.

[Trandrin]

Where there any other memorable bits while you were doing this? Seems like it would be a fun thing to fool around with between other games.

[kasnavada]

@TechSY730:

My thoughts on this:

1) Errr, AIP was at 50 for the first AI kill, and 150 for the second.
2) That's true, but there is 2 points there. When I first started AI war, carelessly aggroing planets with high number of ships got me killed. I don't know for you, but that's a mechanic I would like to keep. Second, if they kept being at the guard posts, I could just do the kind of runs I've been speaking about to get rid of them. That would make the game more tedious, yet wouldn't increase the difficulty one bit. Maybe they should regroup far away and only once they are a "large" wave enough launch an assault ? Dunno, if the solution was that easy it would have been done already.
3) That, I do not know. Are guard posts / core shields supposed to be killed over 2-3 assaults or are they meant to be "one-shotted" ? Also, there is kind of a problem if the entire fleet is needed to kill a guard post. What will defend against the new "retaliation" mechanic, or threat ?
4) Easy to bait because of the low diff probably. Also, I did raids on enemy neutered planets to get rid of threat (neutered planet is with no guard posts and AI ships cleared). With higher AIP I would have unlocked warp station to achieve this.
5) That might be true, yet they need to be beatable. If the AI instantly spawned enough to pawn your ships in 5 seconds at exactly where your location is, I don't really see how this would be a winnable or interesting game. Also, the AI might spawn an eye, the game needs to be winnable with the eye. The reserve are doing what they should do, deal with low-level threat.
6) This is of little consequence, really. Reducing the build time would just encourage me to put more engineers. Also, see point 3.

My opinion is that AIP on 7/7 was to low for the AI to get a significant response. Which is part of the reason why the deep-threat alarm was created, guard post were made stronger and the reserves were created... and so on. I have no better solution than the one you would propose, in my opinion what I could do in that game is a consequence of the current game mechanics which makes higher diff 9/9 games winnable. It would probably have been much easier to pull this of with no deep-strike threat thingy and no reserve and no brutal picks. Probably the conclusion is that you should not play low AIP with 7/7 games.

Finally, this is a 7/7 game. It's kinda supposed not to be hardcore.

[keith.lamothe]

Finally, this is a 7/7 game. It's kinda supposed not to be hardcore.

I agree, but there's a huge difference between "not hardcore" and "you can win even if you ignore the entire Knowledge mechanic"

[kasnavada]

Finally, this is a 7/7 game. It's kinda supposed not to be hardcore.

I agree, but there's a huge difference between "not hardcore" and "you can win even if you ignore the entire Knowledge mechanic"

That made me laugh

Knowledge is overrated anyway =)

[kasnavada]

Where there any other memorable bits while you were doing this? Seems like it would be a fun thing to fool around with between other games.

Most of the time in that game was spent clearing AI territory. With the new guard posts. That's something kinda new for me, I rather used to losing high AIP games, and rarely wandering into AI territory without most of my fleet because it's scary when 1K+guns are staring at me. Also I thought the neinzul far weaker than they really are, especially on the offensive.

It certainly taught me a lot about not wasting ressources if I could avoid it =).

Also, Exo waves were never really problematics in my other games I played, I tended to have 2-3 forts and 4 caps of turrets to defend a chokepoint between my homeworld and wherever they appeared. It's not the same when they spawn next door to your homeworld, and there is no fort, 50 turrets, and a few hundred ships...

[Dichotomy]

I don't think it's terrible that an experienced player can wipe the floor with diff 7 AI, even under some fairly severe restrictions, especially with spirecraft enabled.

[Winge]

I don't think it's terrible that an experienced player can wipe the floor with diff 7 AI, even under some fairly severe restrictions, especially with spirecraft enabled.

I would say that an experience player should have some difficulty come AI HW time with no unlocks.  However, I definitely agree that Spirecraft drastically changes the HW difficulty level (got Penetrator?).

I could see removing the free Mk II unlock.  However, rather than tweaking with K gains for capturing an ARS, I would recommend dropping the price of Mk II fleetships slightly (thinking 2000 K or so).

[chemical_art]

Still mulling over details of the ARS MK II theory.

By mulling I don't mean deciding whether ARS should lose their II marks. That I feel should be done. The matter is how the K prices fall.

On the one hand, I want II's to get a narrow decrease in price. Very narrow, like to 2K. The result is because while their current values are fine, I think that is because you purchase them for your triangle ships, and for bonus ships it is very. It doesn't make that much of an impact, that extra 500 K, for having one or even 2, but against 5 ships it adds up. I also want III's to get a sharp decrease. I simply can't justify spending 6k on any mark of unit when so many other options (options as in I can select two options for that price) are available.

One the other hand. I always get ARS hacks, because I value their options out of the limited hacking options most. As a result, the units I get from ARS are by a vast majority units I'd get II's from anyway. With hacking being expanded though I won't hack ARS so much due to opportunity cost, so the free II's wouldn't be so often units I'd pay for, meaning I may come out ahead even if the lost of 2.5k from the free II's are "recouped" because I'd save 2k from getting the few units I want to III while the ones I don't like remain at I.


Hmm, so much flex on details, since this is interconnected with lots of other things, some not existing yet.

But even so, I want free II's to go...with the hope of cheaper III's 

[TechSY730]

Still mulling over details of the ARS MK II theory.

By mulling I don't mean deciding whether ARS should lose their II marks. That I feel should be done. The matter is how the K prices fall.

On the one hand, I want II's to get a narrow decrease in price. Very narrow, like to 2K. The result is because while their current values are fine, I think that is because you purchase them for your triangle ships, and for bonus ships it is very. It doesn't make that much of an impact, that extra 500 K, for having one or even 2, but against 5 ships it adds up. I also want III's to get a sharp decrease. I simply can't justify spending 6k on any mark of unit when so many other options (options as in I can select two options for that price) are available.

One the other hand. I always get ARS hacks, because I value their options out of the limited hacking options most. As a result, the units I get from ARS are by a vast majority units I'd get II's from anyway. With hacking being expanded though I won't hack ARS so much due to opportunity cost, so the free II's wouldn't be so often units I'd pay for, meaning I may come out ahead even if the lost of 2.5k from the free II's are "recouped" because I'd save 2k from getting the few units I want to III while the ones I don't like remain at I.


Hmm, so much flex on details, since this is interconnected with lots of other things, some not existing yet.

But even so, I want free II's to go...with the hope of cheaper III's

Don't you still get the Mk. II version for free if you hack for it?

[chemical_art]

Don't you still get the Mk. II version for free if you hack for it?

Yes. Actually, that what was part of what I was driving out.

Since I get the II's for free, and since I hack at least 3 ars every game (generally because the other 2 I at least sorta like the orginal or I hate the other choices), the result is most of my ars units I would be willing to pay for II's, unlike the base units which I've started to not get upgrades since I can use the K better elsewhere.

However, if hacking is used for more things, odds are I wouldn't be spending my whole hacking budget on just ars, so I'll get less units that I would want to get II's for, so having the cost to get to III reduced even if II's are not cheaper may still cause me to come out ahead...maybe.

Big maybe, and the details of which I'm still not sure of. I don't like III's because they are expensive. If the changes of ARS make it so getting the unit of an ars from currently from an ARS (6k) is still more expensive then the cost of getting ARS units from I to III  (currently at 8.5k, reducing III's to 4k makes the total cost 6.5k) would that really address the core issue?


Or would the total cost of getting I to III cost the same as they do now for II to III? That is what I propose. With costs of 0/2000/4000 you get the same cost of going from II to III now to I to III in the future...with the caveat ARS don't get II's.

Or do we go lower, so that the costs of III's cost less then now from getting II's to III, and make the costs 0/2000/3500?

These values I still haven't worked out yet.

[RCIX]

Isn't a big problem that you situationally get MkIV for free with your MkIII purchase, if its feasible to take the factory for it?

[chemical_art]

Isn't a big problem that you situationally get MkIV for free with your MkIII purchase, if its feasible to take the factory for it?

Not really, because the factory itself is fairly contentious.

If you balance it around getting the IV, then the factory doesn't feel like a bonus as much as a necessity compared to other irreplaceable.

[Kahuna]

How about:
-Remove the free MarkIIs from ARSs.
-Reduce Mark II Fleetships' cost to 2000 knowledge
-And Mark IIIs' cost to 4000 knowledge.

This change would make Advanced Factories more useful, make people hack more and think more about which ARSs they capture. People probably wouldn't just be like "herp a derp gonna capture all ARSs in the galaxy every game" anymore. Only useful ships types for the current situation would be captured and upgraded to higher marks. Upgrading to higher Mark levels would also be more rewarding because it would be cheaper.

At the moment unlocking Mark IIs costs 2500 knowledge and Mark IIIs 6000 knowledge = 8500 knowledge
2000+4000=6000
8500-6000=2500=Mark II fleet ship. So I think this change would be reasonable.

[chemical_art]

How about:
-Remove the free MarkIIs from ARSs.
-Reduce Mark II Fleetships' cost to 2000 knowledge
-And Mark IIIs' cost to 4000 knowledge.

This change would make Advanced Factories more useful, make people hack more and think more about which ARSs they capture. People probably wouldn't just be like "herp a derp gonna capture all ARSs in the galaxy every game" anymore. Only useful ships types for the current situation would be captured and upgraded to higher marks. Upgrading to higher Mark levels would also be more rewarding because it would be cheaper.

At the moment unlocking Mark IIs costs 2500 knowledge and Mark IIIs 6000 knowledge = 8500 knowledge
2000+4000=6000
8500-6000=2500=Mark II fleet ship. So I think this change would be reasonable.

I keep gravitating to these values, for exactly the reasons you describe.

You just put it in a lot less words