Arcen Games

Games => Tidalis => Topic started by: eRe4s3r on July 18, 2010, 04:13:04 AM

Title: Question about Level 39
Post by: eRe4s3r on July 18, 2010, 04:13:04 AM
What does

To Win: 0 of 3 Combos of >= 3 Chains mean exactly? Might be a simple translation problem for me (not native English ;p) But i don't understand how i can combo 3 chains without going 3 combos deep - .. ehm yeah...  ???
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: Fiskbit on July 18, 2010, 04:25:43 AM
This seems to have caused a lot of confusion with a lot of people. Perhaps the level needs some descriptor text in a future version.

Basically, a chain that is started by another chain clearing is 1 level deeper than that earlier chain. But it doesn't have to be entirely linear; one chain can start many others, which are ALL just 1 level deeper. If the first chain (which is just 1 level deep) starts 5 chains, those are all 2 levels deep. If any of those start another chain, those are 3 levels deep, and so on.

This is really just a tree structure. What you want is this:

  A
 / \
B   C


What you don't want is this:

  A
   \
    B
     \
      C
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: eRe4s3r on July 18, 2010, 04:35:13 AM
Ahhh! So i have to start multiple chains (3) with my FIRST chain and not go deeper than that

Thank you ;P
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: Fiskbit on July 18, 2010, 04:46:13 AM
Well, you only need to start 2 with your first chain, making a total of 3 in the combo. But yes, you've the right idea. :) There are objectives for how deep a combo gets, the total number of chains in a combo, and the total number of blocks in a combo.
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on July 18, 2010, 05:06:52 PM
Oh I should have asked this so long ago.  I got stuck on this level, it was confusing as heck.  That is a much better description :P

King
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: Somenetguy on July 21, 2010, 04:50:30 PM
Even after reading the above I don't really understans level 39,   Stuck on this level.

**Eventually cleared it, only by luck though and still none the wiser as how it should be done.
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 21, 2010, 06:40:05 PM
Lars, yea, we got a number of confused players on this one even during development; I would have kept mentioning it but thought that some description had been added or something.

I would suggest some level description text and an advanced tutorial covering the concept of combo depth (I thought there already was one, but ah well), which could be mentioned in that level description text.
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: Fiskbit on July 21, 2010, 11:59:45 PM
Keith: I'm not sure an advanced tutorial makes sense for this topic, and I don't think I'd really call it advanced. It also only really applies when you have this specific distinction in the objectives, which is really special casey; players are likely to only need to use it in this one place, unlike all of the other tactics in the tutorials. I think it's a good candidate for some text in the level, though.

Somenetguy: Basically, if chain A causes chain B to happen, then chain B is one level deeper than chain A. You need a combo that has 3 chains in it but isn't 3 deep, so you can't have chain A cause chain B, which then causes chain C, since that would be 3 levels deep (A is 1 level deep, B is 2 levels deep, and C is 3 levels deep). You need A to directly cause both B and C so that they're both just 2 levels deep. The key idea here is that the number of chains in a combo and the depth of that combo are entirely separate; depth is the distance of a chain from the start of the combo in chains, while the number of chains is more the size of the combo. When you clear a chain and it says something like x5, that means that chain is 5 levels deep in the combo, but the combo itself may have had more than 5 chains in it.

What you want to do is have it so that when your first chain clears, it drops 2 blocks that each start a chain. Just make sure that neither of those start another chain and you'll meet the win objective without hitting the lose objective.

I hope that helps, but if you still don't understand, please ask a specific question so I can try to clear up your confusion.
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 22, 2010, 10:47:34 AM
Yea, not really advanced, it just didn't seem to fit into the basic, though perhaps that would help since they're all prompted pretty clearly to go through the basic ones.  Anyway, however you think is best is fine, but I think the use of a "visual aid" is the most likely to really connect things in people's minds (see attached), as the text descriptions seem to leave some portion of people still unclear as to what exactly is going on.
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 22, 2010, 10:51:07 AM
Also, while I think you're right that there's only the one level where this distinction directly makes the difference between winning and losing, the impact of combo depth vs combo-chain-count on scoring is pretty big (at least, last time I checked), so it may be worth covering from that angle.
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: regnared on July 22, 2010, 12:01:04 PM
Wow Keith! That made me understand better the meaning. Haha!

Visual did help there. :)
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: Somenetguy on July 22, 2010, 02:54:25 PM
Thanks for the info, I tried the level you posted above and tbh I don't see the difference between clearing the left hand blocks and clearing the right hand blocks, execpt the 2 vertical blocks on the left are removed in one go after clicking the bottom one, whereas the right hand side block take 2 goes(1 click) to drop down.

Clearly the level causes too much confunsion imo. It just seems so out of place compared to the other levels, it takes the fun part of the game away when it becomes frustrating.  I don't mind hard puzzles if I know what I'm supposed to do or can kind of work out how to do it, this level was neither fun or clear.  I don't think it has any need to be in adventure mode, is there anything really gained from learning this level?  I mean in other levels we learn how to score better, what different blocks do etc, this puzzles seems to add nothing that may help.
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: eRe4s3r on July 22, 2010, 03:10:11 PM
Its actually pretty easy once you realize that with the first click you have to start 2 new chains AT THE SAME TIME. The right also starts 2 chains but not at the same time.

That level is a puzzle like all the others - and this is by far not the hardest puzzle in the adventure ;) I think you will love puzzle 75 - The Roman Candle ;)
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: Somenetguy on July 22, 2010, 04:06:53 PM


That level is a puzzle like all the others - and this is by far not the hardest puzzle in the adventure ;) I think you will love puzzle 75 - The Roman Candle ;)

Well I don't agree, fine put it in the brainteaser section but it shouldn't really be in adventure mode.  The purpose of adventure mode in a lot of games is that each level shows off the different features of the game for each level, is level 39 showing a special feature, I don't think so.

Anyway glad to see the back of that level, currently on 52.
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 22, 2010, 04:16:45 PM
It's not really that hard :)  The difference between "a combo of 3 chains and 2 depth" and "a combo of 3 chains and 3 depth" is the difference between "having two children" and "having one child and one grandchild".
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: Fiskbit on July 23, 2010, 01:35:59 AM
Keith, that comparison is really spot on. I couldn't have said it any better, myself.

Somenetguy: Well, the goal behind this level isn't to confuse the player. I really think this level is just as valid as any other, with the caveat that it requires grasping the distinction between depth of a combo (those numbers that show up when a chain clears) and the total number of chains in a combo. Deeper combos typically give more points than shallower combos (refer to http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Tidalis_-_Scoring_Calculations (http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Tidalis_-_Scoring_Calculations) if you'd like more info on that), so the skill of making shallow many-chain combos can be useful in situations where you want to clear a lot of blocks quickly without accumulating many points (as well as in many other objective combinations that aren't present in the adventure mode, to my recollection). Setting up those shallow combos and making sure they don't go deeper can be rather challenging. You have to find or set up blocks so that the first chain can spawn two more chains, and you need to make sure that neither of those chains lead to more chains. There is a wide range of skills (searching for chains, setting combos up, looking ahead, and preventing combos from getting too deep) required for completing this stage.

So, I think there's a lot gained in learning how to complete this level. The skills required here are necessary (though not necessarily in this same combination) all throughout the adventure mode. There are things we can do (perhaps adding in another basic tutorial, or having text in the level itself) to make the objective more clear, which I think is a better solution than just scrapping the level, given the merits it has. We don't want to confuse players; that feedback is definitely noted and appreciated. :)
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: SmileyFace on July 26, 2010, 09:46:47 AM
Well, you only need to start 2 with your first chain, making a total of 3 in the combo. But yes, you've the right idea. :) There are objectives for how deep a combo gets, the total number of chains in a combo, and the total number of blocks in a combo.
Ahhh, so that's how this level works! I just won it after losing a few times but I had no idea how I did it! The wording is confusing because it's the first time that depth and # of combos are differentiated and on top of this, the two separate conditions are used in the same puzzle. That had me scratching my head - I kept thinking they were the same condition.

I think the level is fine for adventure mode but needs a better description (somehow).
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: x4000 on July 26, 2010, 03:14:44 PM
Okay, in the next patch this is the new in-game text for this level:

Quote
The difference between "a combo of 3 chains and 2 depth" and "a combo of 3 chains and 3 depth" is the difference between "having two children" and "having one child and one grandchild".

So, in this specific level you want three different combos with each having two children, while avoiding having three combos with any grandchildren.

Hopefully will make things a lot more clear, but feel free to make any suggestions. :)
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: keith.lamothe on July 26, 2010, 03:16:58 PM
Well, on the second line the "three children" might be a little misleading, as what you want is one parent and two children, rather than one parent, one child, and one grandchild. :)
Title: Re: Question about Level 39
Post by: x4000 on July 26, 2010, 03:17:53 PM
Good point, that's now fixed. :)