Author Topic: chain Of 20?  (Read 3223 times)

Offline ttomm46

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chain Of 20?
« on: July 24, 2010, 01:23:16 PM »
The Zen level where you have to have one chain of 20 is where i'm stuck at..anyone else have trouble with this level?
Tom ???

Offline kout

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2010, 01:33:40 PM »
The Zen level where you have to have one chain of 20 is where i'm stuck at..anyone else have trouble with this level?
Tom ???

Not really trouble because you can't lose, but I did spend some good 40 minutes with it I believe :P I made two or three 19-blocks chain until I finally was able to complete the level.

Most of the time the trouble is that there aren't enough blocks in the board. You should try picking one color and avoid making chains with it until you have a sufficient amount to make the chain.

Good luck with it, and have patience, because you'll need it ;)

Offline ttomm46

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2010, 01:40:46 PM »
 :o ok lol

Offline AcidWeb

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2010, 01:42:18 PM »
Personally I completed that one with first steam.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2010, 02:28:38 PM »
I completed it with the first also - as i understand it you don't need to make 20 with the first "chain" but 20 overall - in 1 combo so to speak

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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2010, 02:43:54 PM »
It may have been changed but I thought it was 20 blocks in one chain, not 20 blocks in one combo (there's an objective type for that, too).  If it were the combo one then you could just have a 3-chain that causes a bunch of secondary emits to get a total of 7 3-chains or something like that and it would work.  The level I'm remembering that chain itself had to be 20 long.  Of course, that doesn't mean it has to be the first chain in the combo, you can set it up so that some helper chains are done first to line stuff up and maybe pull in some more blocks of the desired color from the top.  We're probably using at least 3 different meanings for the word "combo" ;)
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2010, 05:01:26 PM »
Hehe, both my girlfriend and one of my better friends spend quite some time on this particular puzzle. It's difficult, but doable.
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Offline Fiskbit

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2010, 06:58:58 PM »
This one requires 20 blocks in one chain, not one combo. Objectives are very explicit about what they mean; block, chain, and combo are all very different (chains are made of blocks, combos are made of chains).

Nearly every time I start this level, there is a 20-block chain hanging around for me to clear, and if not, it's usually close to 20. In the latter case, usually clearing one small chain can jiggle blocks around enough to, for example, bridge the gap between two large groups of one color. That said, it's uncommon for me to come across this case. I recommend taking a closer look and not bothering with clearing less-than-20-block-chains unless you're absolutely sure there's no 20 block chain there. A significant amount of work and care went into making sure that there should almost always (can't say always because the randomizer can technically spit out anything) be a suitably large chain available at the start, though. White blocks are very important for that, though, so if you clear most of your white blocks early on in failed attempts, it may be in your best interest to just restart the level.

As an example, I've attached a photo with a 21-chain that I found with the starting set of blocks. Keep in mind that many large chains (including this one) only work if you start at the right place; this chain has 3 sections to it, and you can't include all 3 sections unless you start at the top left where my cursor is.


Edit: We could always raise the number of white blocks on this stage, but I think that might make the level much less interesting in that it wouldn't make you need to really exercise your pathfinding skills like you currently have to. With the chains of 20-22 blocks that are currently in there, you need to do your best to try to get as many blocks into a chain, which can be difficult and very interesting because of the tradeoffs (which sets of blocks to include and which to exclude, and where you can start from to include the most sets of blocks in the chain). If there were a lot of chains of 25+ blocks, then there'd be such a large margin for error that these interesting problems would stop being a part of it.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 07:37:26 PM by Fiskbit »
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Offline kout

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2010, 08:11:38 PM »
I think the difficulty of the level is just fine. It may take a while if you blow your first chance, but at least it's interesting. It's nowhere near as frustrating as some of the last levels, in which sometimes you'll need luck instead of skill :P

Offline Fiskbit

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2010, 08:57:21 PM »
Got any specific levels in mind there? If randomization is making some of the later levels luck-based (a LOT of testing and retesting went into making sure levels were balanced across many separate attempts at each level), that would be very helpful information. None of the levels were intended to require luck.
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Offline kout

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 01:40:58 AM »
Got any specific levels in mind there? If randomization is making some of the later levels luck-based (a LOT of testing and retesting went into making sure levels were balanced across many separate attempts at each level), that would be very helpful information. None of the levels were intended to require luck.

By "luck" I actually meant it like "a little extra help" because levels get harder and harder, though there are a couple of levels in which luck did play a role.

For instance, in level 80, where you need to teleport the sun blocks to the bottom of the well; the level is impossible if you don't get enough white blocks. Even though this happens many times in other levels, the fact that you only have 7 lines to play, that you depend on them AND that you need to have two of them together to use one sun block makes it pretty much based on luck. Who knows... maybe I just suck with the sun-moon levels, because I found them all kind of hard :P

I have to say though, that the fact that I can count those levels with one hand is impressive :) (which is why I love this game so much, that unlike other puzzle games, the luck factor is almost nonexistent).

Offline Fiskbit

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 02:05:39 AM »
Hm, okay. That's something I've not seen on that stage yet. Some helpful strategies on that stage include using crystallized white blocks on the top to help you clear sun blocks, as well as use crystallized crystallizers on the bottom to crystallize moon blocks for use on the top to help you clear and/or crystallize sun blocks. I intend to give the level several more plays to see if I come across any unavoidable losses, though. It may be that the level needs to be adjusted.

You're right that the sun and moon levels do get pretty tough. There's a lot of interesting stuff that can be done on them that we capitalized on, and some of those things are inherently difficult. Part of that is also that they often play very differently from the norm, so they can take quite a bit of practice to really get the hang of compared to the rest of the stages (for which the levels preceding them are typically good practice).

Thanks for the heads up on that level. If there are any others with this problem, feel free to post about them. I intended for Tidalis to be a game of skill and not luck (unlike so many other puzzle games); I'm glad that seems to have worked out, for the most part. :)
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Offline kout

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2010, 02:38:15 AM »
...as well as use crystallized crystallizers on the bottom to crystallize moon blocks for use on the top to help you clear and/or crystallize sun blocks.

I wish I had thought of that one before. :P

I intended for Tidalis to be a game of skill and not luck (unlike so many other puzzle games); I'm glad that seems to have worked out, for the most part. :)

It definitely did. The fact that you can approach the same level with different strategies shows you that it *is* a game of skill. Puzzle Quest keeps coming to my mind as a game in which luck played a big role; sometimes the computer would defeat you in one movement without letting you even move a block. Tidalis is great in that aspect, because you can always stop unwanted chains by rotating blocks on the fly -provided you are fast enough, of course :P-.

Offline SmileyFace

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2010, 06:06:43 AM »
The Zen level where you have to have one chain of 20 is where i'm stuck at..anyone else have trouble with this level?
Tom ???
Don't worry, you're not the only one. This level was weird for me in that it was so frustrating, despite being a "zen" level! I kept trying to set up a 20-block chain by focusing on clearing one or two other colours but the abundance of white blocks meant that unintended chains kept on firing. End result: pretty much all colour blocks kept getting cleared and I couldn't complete the objective!

By the time I was done I ended up with 1.5 mil score and 10 achievements. The level ended up requiring nothing but persistence and blind luck :(

Offline Fiskbit

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Re: chain Of 20?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2010, 09:02:48 AM »
SmileyFace: Does the information I posted in this thread help at all? The approach you took is definitely not the way to go for this level to be a pleasant experience; it's supposed to be a level about pathfinding, not about clearing as many blocks of colors you don't care about as you can in order to have some trivial large chain. The whites are what make this possible. I think what this level needs is a limit on the number of moves. Not limited to 1 move, since there's not ALWAYS a 20-chain right off the bat (but there usually is), but a few moves (maybe 3) so you can still make a 20-chain possible if it's not already there without letting people spend forever trying to set it up in this wrong way. I think that would go a long way in guiding people to the correct way of doing this.
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