Author Topic: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)  (Read 4633 times)

Offline GC13

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2014, 11:22:19 am »
Yeah, I have no idea why the RCI buildings were changed. I had built a few of the +0.002/month buildings and was asking myself "why?". Assuming the average building stands for fifty years, that means each is worth +2 to its RCI stat. It takes eighteen months to build, so couldn't I just save the time and the planet's materials and just spend two months on a dispatch mission so they get all of the benefit immediately?

Heck, even at +0.02 a month, it's still saving me just two months, while making me wait a very long time for the benefit. If the dispatch missions aren't seen as worthwhile now, why are the buildings so much less time-efficient than them? They should be more time-efficient. Buildings should give +1/year, and even then they're not super-great.

If you're going to have buildings that add to RCI, then RCI should trend towards zero, no matter where it's at, at such a rate that after X years it would reach zero from its current position. If you made X equal to ten, then at +10 on an RCI you'd be automatically subtracting 0.05 a month (though it would go down slightly each month as it approached zero, so it never actually would get to zero).
Furthermore, it is my opinion that Hari must be destroyed.

Offline wwwhhattt

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2014, 12:53:15 pm »
Aye, one of them is probably definitely the shmup game (aahhhhhh, testing that will be fun, though I'll try not to explode Mantis with feedback).

Could the other one be an expansion for something?  Another AI War one, possibly?  That seems the most likely one to me.  I cant think of anything else it might be....
There's still Ascendant, whatever that turns out to be.

Offline ptarth

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2014, 01:18:41 pm »
If you're going to have buildings that add to RCI, then RCI should trend towards zero, no matter where it's at, at such a rate that after X years it would reach zero from its current position. If you made X equal to ten, then at +10 on an RCI you'd be automatically subtracting 0.05 a month (though it would go down slightly each month as it approached zero, so it never actually would get to zero).

Wouldn't that result in progress being unrelated to your RCI. That is to say, a race with 0 techs would have their RCI driven to 0, and a race with all of the techs and all of the buildings would also have their RCI driven to 0.

Another way of putting it, "Congratulations, you have invented clean energy technology as a reward, your environment RCI will increase 2 per year. Oh, btw, newly discovered somethings have been discovered. They decrease our environment by 2 per year. Good luck with that."

I think that buildings and technologies should increase RCI. Some other buildings might increase one RCI to decrease another (although Race building AI needs to be improved). It should be player and Race actions that cause more focused trends in RCI changing. That way the dispatch missions have a purpose. The Races and the Player should also be able to do something about those events. Having a doctor shortage for 360 months needs to be something that can be dealt with, besides forcing the player to do Medical Dispatch for 360 months.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline I-KP

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2014, 01:19:17 pm »
Everything connected to RCI seems to be a bit confused, hovering somewhere between the ineffective (RCI dispatch) and the useless (RCI buildings). 

RCI needs to be rethought, I'd say.

- Convert RCI to a percentage and have that value directly apply to the relevant suitabilities.
- Limit the RCI range to +500% / -100%.
- Grant RCI buildings a minimum of +0.1%/month and apply a diminishing returns function to multiple buildings of the same name (with each extra building providing 50% less than the previous).
- RCI Dispatch missions should be a 'quick and dirty' way to add temporary band-aid fixes, +1% to any one RCI per month on the job, but such Dispatch boosts should fade at the rate of 0.25% points / month.  E.g., a ten month Economy RCI mission grants +10% Economy RCI but next month that drops to +9.75%, then next month to +9.5%, with the full effect of the ten month mission fading away completely after forty months.

Expressing RCI in meaningful terms, i.e., as a percentage instead of a generic integer, the mechanic becomes far easier to understand, the player knows exactly how much they are contributing to, or taking away from (sabotage), a planet, and it's easier to balance. 

Oh, and once RCI does become meaningful please add the RCI line to all planet mission selection screens where they are applicable as it's a PITA to keep flitting back to the solar map / planet details to find out which RCI needs attention.

Ta.  :)
Atmospheric & Lithospheric Reticulator,
Post-accretion Protoplanet Aesthetic Seeding Team,
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Magrathea.

Offline GC13

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2014, 01:31:48 pm »
Wouldn't that result in progress being unrelated to your RCI?
That's the beauty of it: no, it wouldn't.

Imagine three races, one of them a technological and economic giant, and two of them zero-tech backwaters. One of the backwaters is stricken by a terrible plague while the other has the Hydral come in and clean up their environment; the advanced race simply does what they do.

The plagued race has its Medical dropped to -100 before the plague runs its course. Now, the disease was a one-off event that's already been contained. Medical systems were strained, the populace weakened, but it's gone now. Slowly, the race will get back to normal. Since they have no advanced infrastructure or technology, it will take a long time; if we set the math to check just once a year, and move it ten percent closer to zero, even after twenty years they'd still be at -13.5 RCI. Obviously, this plague affected them deeply, but they're getting over it.

The math is the same with the backwater races that the Hydral helped out: they have a pristine environment, but everything else is going on as it used to. Soil will erode, chemicals will find their way into oceans and the air, and in the long-term they'll be right back where they were.

The technologically advanced race, though? They don't need the Hydral. They have a combination of technologies and buildings that give them a total of +3 to each RCI each year. Without any intervention from the Hydral, this race will naturally hover around a +30 to each of their RCI stats. Any disaster that strikes will not only be overcome more quickly, thanks to the static +3 a year (if the plague had struck them and taken them to -100, by twenty years they'd be at +12.4, not -13.5), but their "normal" that they're trending towards is 30, not 0. Any boon by the Hydral will help them temporarily, but even when it wears off they still have the infrastructure and know-how to maintain a higher standard of living.
Furthermore, it is my opinion that Hari must be destroyed.

Offline lifehole

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 01:36:27 pm »
Wow, these are amazing suggestions for revamping the RCI system from you guys, it'd make it a 10x more fun and intuitive system if it's implemented right. I'd say put up a mantis with a few of these ideas.

Offline ptarth

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2014, 02:23:10 pm »
That's a reasonable way of explaining, but I still disagree, and I'll give you may take on it. I'll also provide how I think it should be addressed with additional mechanics. The first is the AI recognizing RCI and acting to deal with it. The second is a series of intervention programs, wherein the AI spends its budget on improving a particular RCI.

Again, 3 systems. 1 backwater, 1 advanced, and 1 backwater + Hydra assisted. Again, let's assume they all start at 0, and then suffer a massive plague that drops medical by 100.

Backwater: Medical drops to -100. They have nothing to modify RCI, so they stay a desolate wasteland. A new government comes in and decides that the worst problem facing the planet is Medical. They then invest in the "Train New Doctors and establish Medical Protocols" intervention program. This slowly increases their Medical. Eventually they are able to get back to 0.

Advanced. Medical drops to -100. They have advanced hospitals (buildings) and advanced training (technology) that automatically improve RCI. Their Medical increases as these passive bonuses work. They decide that they aren't dealing with the situation fast enough, so they also kick in the "Train New Doctors and establish Medical Protocols" intervention. However, because of their technology level, their version of this intervention is higher, so their RCI goes up even faster than the Backwaters.

Backwater + Hydra: Medical drops to -100. They have nothing to modify RCI, so they stay a desolate wasteland. However, the Hydra Player takes mercy on them and starts a Medical dispatch. A new government comes in and decides the Hydra is taking care of things well enough, and they should spend their budget on new statues for the palace. The Hydra player is able to get their Medical back to 0 and then goes off to stop a war. The Backwater is happy with their brand new statues and then decides to repaint all of the houses on the planet purple because the green paint they used last year is cursed.

Okay, so then the question is should RCI be a unbounded float or a percentage?
I believe that RCI should be unbounded because things can always get worse or better. I could see it being on a log scale, but that's an extra level of complexity that is beyond the immediate situation. I don't think the percentage is the way to go because it forces an unnatural cap. If we don't bind it between some x & y, then it is the same as not being a percentage and so we can skip the percentage and have the exact same outcomes.

And should it decay naturally to 0 over time?
Again, I don't think so. My first impulse is that it is adding another level of complexity too soon. Getting a basic functional system where buildings, technologies, events, and player actions consistently and sensible affect the RCI should be performed first. Then afterwards if additional complexity to RCI is necessary should decay be considered.

When would decay make sense?
Let's do some examples. Let's say you have a hospital it adds +1 Medical per year. You have it for ten years (RCI is up to 10), but then it is destroyed. It makes sense that RCI should degrade in that situation as your Medical Training dies off. However, consider a second example. You accidentally unleash a planet wide radioactive cloud that drops the environment to -1000. How quickly should your planet recover from this? Should it recover at the same speed as the loss of the hospital loses Medical? If we have a simple multiplicative reduction or a percentage reduction, then the radioactive cloud would reduce more quickly than your people forget about medicine. That seems wrong. A reduction in radioactivity would take centuries, not just a few years. The other big problem is the time scale. It really seems that the basic unit of time should be years rather than months. Given that our races can jump from unmanned space probes to time travel in a few years. As you can see, it is complicated. Hence my suggestion to make a simple working system, and then try to be fancy about it.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline GC13

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2014, 03:29:46 pm »
Perhaps a radioactive cloud is a bad example; the half-lives of most of the damaging radioactive isotopes that will be causing damage after a radiation release are rather short. I mean, people are living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki right now.

I'll note that your example where the planet spends extra on medical largely achieves the same result, but requires further expanding the simulation while adding in natural decay is a simple mathematical operation to represent such behavior. Either way, the Medical doesn't stay at -100. It goes up because such things always get better.

Anyway, you have to have some restriction on RCI if buildings will give boosts to RCI. The building's bonus can cap at, say, ten years of bonus, or RCI can trend towards zero. I don't like the current solution, where RCI can go towards the stars or the basement and their effects are capped. For one, that means that helping a stricken planet feels amazingly futile. Why help someone when you can only improve their situation by one point a month and they're at -2,000? Second, it really de-emphasizes investment. If the max you're going to get is a +30% bonus, why build something that will help increase the pace at which your +25% bonus slowly approaches but never reaches +30%?

The gradual decay is elegant. The dispatch missions provide a temporary boost, but for lasting change you need to invest in new buildings and technologies that will make a real difference. It also allows the RCI bonuses to scale linearly, so that a +30 on Economic is a +30% to construction rate rather than where it is a (0.3/(1+0.3)*X% boost to construction rate.
Furthermore, it is my opinion that Hari must be destroyed.

Offline ptarth

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2014, 06:17:48 pm »
1. Discussions on half-lives of dangerous levels of radiation across various types of nuclear disasters misses the point. I'm sure we both agree that it depends on what type of disaster happens and the amount of radiation, but the actual details don't matter. The point of me bringing it up was to provide an illustration of an event that roughly paralleled the situation.

2. The main way that RCI's get past 20 is via events and buggy buildings/technologies. These need to be addressed before considering more complicated changes. If decay is added before they are addressed (as exponetial decay), then it will hide problems like the huge impact of events. For example, right now, the Thoraxians can have 2 trillion ground defense on a planet, whereas the Skylaxian might get 500 million in the same situation. Adding additional mechanisms or widely varying the parameters is missing the source of the problem, which is that things are interacting in unexpected ways. Dropping the effect of the RCI buildings by a factor of 10 is another good example. The buildings weren't causing any problems, they had a trivial effect. Adding decay, at this point, is similar to the type of correction implied by the 10 fold reduction in building effects. We need less massive system adjustments (like events, Federation points, etc), and more certainty that current mechanism are producing behaviors that are in line with expectations. Looking a the science rates is a great example. They did have ranges between 1 and 400,000+, because of how the multipliers were stacking. They were adjusted to be additive and are now much more reasonable. The same type of fix should be considered here.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Misery

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2014, 06:53:33 pm »
On the note of the RCI values shifting around, among other reasons, I've also come up with this:

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=14919

Dunno why it took me so long to think that one up.  It does definitely bug me though.

Any thoughts on this one?

Offline yllamana

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2014, 01:11:52 am »
I couldn't find any more appropriate thread for it - congratulations on releasing the game! :) It's been fun so far!

I will now probably go back into cryogenic sleep until I must reawaken to buy your next game (and congratulate you on its release)

Offline jonasan

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2014, 01:49:12 pm »
wow gentlemen, that is some serious bug fixing today..... fair play! ;)

Offline topper

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2014, 01:54:33 pm »
wow gentlemen, that is some serious bug fixing today..... fair play! ;)

Agreed. The patch notes do not do justice to the damage on Mantis that has been done so far today.   :D

Offline GC13

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2014, 02:07:39 pm »
"They wanna whine about the Mantis backlog? Fine! We'll kill the Mantis backlog!" They still have a ticket I put in that they apparently solved without putting it in the patch notes, if they wanna mark one more resolved. :)
Furthermore, it is my opinion that Hari must be destroyed.

Offline Azurian

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Re: TLF Version 1.012 Released (War And Spies)
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2014, 09:29:36 pm »
Only Left :

127 Bug - Gameplay
31 Bug - Other
68 Gameplay Issue

Which many are duplicates or from old versions.

958 issues have been resolved.
PLEASE REPORT FEEDBACK TO MANTIS IF YOU WANT THEM TO SEE IT!
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view_all_bug_page.php