Author Topic: Some uneducated hoi polloi's opinion  (Read 2437 times)

Offline Hartmann

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Some uneducated hoi polloi's opinion
« on: October 25, 2014, 08:57:27 am »
I've waited a bit before doing so, as most Arcen games are mostly uncomplete once they're out. Now, with the expansion being out and the game being more or less stabilized, I do believe that I can finally give (again) my opinion about The Last Federation so far.

First, I'd like to say that this is about the vanilla game only. I briefly tried Betrayer mode when it came out, and the Obscura were just too overpowered when I tried them, so I'm just talking about the Federation game mode, through I do believe that most of my complains can be extended to other game modes as well.

First things first, I'm a casual. Let that be clear. For the combat, I play in normal, but for the galaxy map, I'm only using Easiest of easy mode, because I don't like constantly using my credits to convince races to not go to war.
And frankly, the most interesting missions I have played are the "deliver spacefaring tech" missions, as it is the closest thing to a stealth mission that I have seen. The rest of the game can be resumed to "shoot at it until it dies while avoiding its bullets". And while I don't mind playing a turn-based Touhou game, it bothers me that most enemies are basically bullet sponges, able to stand being shot in the face three turns straight. Especially visible with Burlusts boss. Despite changes in the gameplay, the combat is still extremely boring. Apparently there's a multiplier making them harder and harder, but I'm ready to bet that harder translates to "deals more damage and have more HP".
Another thing that bothers me, is the randomness of the fights. Some ships are shooting at your current position, others are predicting where you'll go, others are just shooting randomly.
And while, honestly, I do appreciate how hard you tried to give beautiful shots to the Obscura, it's still pretty difficult to predict where the safe spot is.
It's not unbalanced, but it makes the fights a little boring. I dunno, take inspiration from Diablo 3 or other shmups, and give some special skills to important enemy ships.

YOU FEEL MAH LAZORS THORAXIAN SCUM?


Another complain I have is the Hydral's flagship.
If I got it right, that ships depends from the race who took the Hydra in. Okay. Cool.
But it annoys me that I cannot customize it further than "change wepon or thy mad skillz". I'm not talking about adding banners saying "Abandon all hope, ye who crosses me, for Davy Jones' locker awaits ye", but being able to change its appearance or its hull would be good. Something visual to reflect the upgrade I get from SCIENCE.


And a last thing : I though the Hydra was a renegade, but the intro suggests he is the last survivor of a renegade group rather than being a lone hydra.
What's the real story?
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Offline Misery

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Re: Some uneducated hoi polloi's opinion
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2014, 10:04:32 am »
Hm, for the Obscura, I'm the one that designed the patterns (and for the new normal ships added in the expansion as well), and "not knowing where the safe spot is" sounds about right for how they're intended to be  :P

As the devs had originally decided that they'd basically be meant to be pretty darn nasty compared to everything else, more like fighting a boss in a shmup, their patterns were designed accordingly.  There is no super easy safe spot with any individual Obscura ship.... and if there is, it's an oversight by me and will probably get fixed.  Of course, their damage levels are a little out of whack right now; keep in mind, this is a beta, so LOTS of things are a little wonky.  A variety of stats on various ships are definitely in need of tweaking (as the new ships go anyway, the old ones are well set at this point), and that's the next thing that I'll be doing, albeit probably a bit slowly, since tweaking stuff for something like this typically takes forever to get right.  However, it's worth noting that the patterns for the Obscura were designed very, very carefully, and I tested the hell outta them (on Misery difficulty, where if you DONT dodge, you're probably dead pretty fast) to make sure that each individual pattern is indeed entirely dodgeable.  Typically though you'll be encountering 3-5 or so of these guys at a time, and everything's all calibrated so that as long as you're careful and thinking about your moves carefully, even then the patterns still arent unstoppable.  Trying to get them to split up though is the best tactic, if you can.

And most ships *always* aim their shots; typically firing at wherever their target is looking to be.  As a rule, they dont fire randomly.  But when you've got piles of allied interceptors and other things around, well... I dont know just how it is that ships decide on targets, but they'll appear to just be spraying shots all over the place trying to hit the small speedy guys.  Some ships though such as the "Model T" dont use aimed shots, and the Obscura use a combination of both aimed and static.

The Burlust Warlords, ignore them for now.  They're getting a makeover, and their new... well, everything.... is finished and ready to go, but I cant add them directly myself, so it has to wait till Chris is ready to stick in the next patch, which in grand Arcen style will probably have lots of neat stuff in it  :D



As for the HP and shields of most ships, there's a couple of things about those:  1, Flagships are meant to take alot of hits.  They're basically the centerpieces of any battle, and are where the majority of the enemy (and ally) forces stem from, so they're not meant to go down in just a couple of turns, and neither are the flagships of your allies.  If you want them taken down THAT quickly, you need a concentrated attack on one from both you and a pile of allies at once.  Also, make sure you're using an energy weapon against their shields (Energy Blaster; if you dont have it, you need it), as basically anything else takes forever to crack them.  Weapons are... ahh, they need some balancing, as right now you kinda need both the Minigun and the Energy Blaster to fight at all efficiently. I'm sure they'll get looked at eventually by the devs, but I'm guessing there's tons of other things right now that are much higher priority for them to work on.  2, small ships actually have very little HP; with the right weapon, using autofire you can typically knock out a bunch of them in one turn.  The problem is that the "right weapon" is generally the minigun again.  Others kinda have a bit of trouble at times. 3, go into the ship customization screen, and make sure you're bringing a good set of abilities with you.  They can make the difference between a fight taking forever (or you just outright losing) and it going efficiently and well.  Operations in particular are useful, and in most cases should be used on the very first turn of any fight.  I've very rarely ever seen an exception to that rule.



That all being said, the combat aspect of the game isnt for everyone... with a game like this, it's pretty much impossible to make it so both sides of the game appeal universally to each individual player. I've seen plenty of people that really love the combat, but there's of course been some that just cant stand it.  You always have the option to auto-resolve if you want, which is...uh... located... somewhere.  I think it's at the bottom left corner during a battle?  And it is there exactly for that situation:  When the player just doesnt want to do the combat and wishes to just stick only to the strategy.  Or, if the combat situation is looking so stupidly easy (like you and some allies against a whole 2 flagships, which is an inevitable massacre and victory for you), you can just do a quick auto-resolve, as super easy yet long missions arent really fun for even those that really like the combat.  So that's something to keep in mind.

Also I do have to agree, having the appearance of the ship evolve over the course of the game WOULD be pretty cool, but I'm guessing that's probably a bit much, as art assets go.  Though I could be wrong?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 10:15:11 am by Misery »

Offline Hartmann

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Re: Some uneducated hoi polloi's opinion
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2014, 11:09:48 am »
You're the one who made the Obscura pattern?  [Insert compliment here], they're quite good, even through fighting them 3vs1 is closer to "lunatic" than "nasty".

For the Burlusts warlords, I eagerly wait for an update, as they got massively nerfed (loss of the gravity lance), and mass driver can practically makes them unable to attack.

Oh, and thank you for explaining me how to use weapons, but rest assured I know how to read the ingame descriptions, so don't worry about that. Speaking about ingame descriptions, the spreadshot's projection is exagerrated, as it gives the maximum damage done if ALL bullets hit. And that doesn't happen unless you're at point blank, which is suicidal.

As for auto-resolve, well, allow me to laugh and explain that the Total War franchise taught me to never use it under any circumstance.

The main problem I have with fights is that bullets are going all over the place, which is somehow good. Except that some ships are extremely fast, leaving bullets absolutely everywhere, which means you cannot regen shields during a fight, as the small interceptors will make sure you're constantly taking small hits. Not much, but enough to disturb the regeneration. And I haven't found any option to give orders to the small summoned ships.
Speaking of interceptors, I still haven't understood how the scale work. Apparently, there are thingies that does stuff, and you only need one of these to upgrade the flagship.

I perfectly understand that flagships are supposed to withstand punishment, but when I'm looking for Hydral tech and am fighting a 7vs1 fight, I would enjoy it a lot more if I wasn't forced to bait the enemy while abusing my superior range.
I appreciate the idea of having pilots to save, it forces the player to stay close to the ships instead of sniping them from afar, but the problem is that getting too close to the enemies ship often means dying to the deadly gravitic lance (at least they were in my memories).


But yeah, I admit that I have a peculiar dislike for turn-based games, so TLF will probably never totally pleases me. But I really liked the sneaking missions, and I would like to have more of these "sneak in a minefield to get tech" or "sneak in an asteroid field filled with space monsters to recover minerals".
but I dunno, I think there's still a lot of potential in that game. I tried in my last post to put a Touhou picture depicting a giant laser taking 75% of the screen, but I also remember Diablo 3, where you have to fight the Butcher while avoiding being burned to death by the randomly burning floor. And I think that shooting down the orbital defenses of a planet while avoiding the ion cannon's shots would be epic, instead of said defenses being just "destroy this to make them lose 1m defenders".


In short : the fights are a bit boring, due to flagships all being bullet sponges (granted, it's explained by them being tough, but are Hydrals so scary that nobody wants to surrender?), and I find it lacking in immersion, as the descriptions often don't match what I see.
For example : a planet has 10 moons. It's written in its description. Except said moons never appear in the background, there's no mission to attack the freighters and isolate these moon bases. They're just ressources mines.



You might think I dislike TLF. You would be wrong. The fact that I'm criticizing means that I see potential in that game, and am frustrated by how badly it delivers. I want to see it being improved. I want to have fun when I play, instead of thinking "oh great, thoraxians and skylaxians started a war while I was researching something, now I have to restart everything because the peltians are doomed and the burlust hate me".
That's something sadly constant in Arcen games, they give off that "lack of polish" impression. Instead of feeling like I'm leading a human rebel army, I feel like I'm just playing chess with an AI who acts as if I wasn't here. Instead of feeling like a four-headed monster loathed by the one he's trying to unite, I feel like some guy visiting another guy living on a planet, said other guy just happens to be an alien hivemind.
I don't really know how to put it in words, but that's how I feel when I play The Last Federation. Maybe the still pictures are to blame. Planets feel empty. Like in that Hot Shots! movie where the general is looking at a photography and complains nobody's moving.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Some uneducated hoi polloi's opinion
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2014, 11:49:56 am »
You're the one who made the Obscura pattern?  [Insert compliment here], they're quite good, even through fighting them 3vs1 is closer to "lunatic" than "nasty".

For the Burlusts warlords, I eagerly wait for an update, as they got massively nerfed (loss of the gravity lance), and mass driver can practically makes them unable to attack.

Oh, and thank you for explaining me how to use weapons, but rest assured I know how to read the ingame descriptions, so don't worry about that. Speaking about ingame descriptions, the spreadshot's projection is exagerrated, as it gives the maximum damage done if ALL bullets hit. And that doesn't happen unless you're at point blank, which is suicidal.

As for auto-resolve, well, allow me to laugh and explain that the Total War franchise taught me to never use it under any circumstance.

The main problem I have with fights is that bullets are going all over the place, which is somehow good. Except that some ships are extremely fast, leaving bullets absolutely everywhere, which means you cannot regen shields during a fight, as the small interceptors will make sure you're constantly taking small hits. Not much, but enough to disturb the regeneration. And I haven't found any option to give orders to the small summoned ships.
Speaking of interceptors, I still haven't understood how the scale work. Apparently, there are thingies that does stuff, and you only need one of these to upgrade the flagship.

I perfectly understand that flagships are supposed to withstand punishment, but when I'm looking for Hydral tech and am fighting a 7vs1 fight, I would enjoy it a lot more if I wasn't forced to bait the enemy while abusing my superior range.
I appreciate the idea of having pilots to save, it forces the player to stay close to the ships instead of sniping them from afar, but the problem is that getting too close to the enemies ship often means dying to the deadly gravitic lance (at least they were in my memories).


But yeah, I admit that I have a peculiar dislike for turn-based games, so TLF will probably never totally pleases me. But I really liked the sneaking missions, and I would like to have more of these "sneak in a minefield to get tech" or "sneak in an asteroid field filled with space monsters to recover minerals".
but I dunno, I think there's still a lot of potential in that game. I tried in my last post to put a Touhou picture depicting a giant laser taking 75% of the screen, but I also remember Diablo 3, where you have to fight the Butcher while avoiding being burned to death by the randomly burning floor. And I think that shooting down the orbital defenses of a planet while avoiding the ion cannon's shots would be epic, instead of said defenses being just "destroy this to make them lose 1m defenders".


In short : the fights are a bit boring, due to flagships all being bullet sponges (granted, it's explained by them being tough, but are Hydrals so scary that nobody wants to surrender?), and I find it lacking in immersion, as the descriptions often don't match what I see.
For example : a planet has 10 moons. It's written in its description. Except said moons never appear in the background, there's no mission to attack the freighters and isolate these moon bases. They're just ressources mines.



You might think I dislike TLF. You would be wrong. The fact that I'm criticizing means that I see potential in that game, and am frustrated by how badly it delivers. I want to see it being improved. I want to have fun when I play, instead of thinking "oh great, thoraxians and skylaxians started a war while I was researching something, now I have to restart everything because the peltians are doomed and the burlust hate me".
That's something sadly constant in Arcen games, they give off that "lack of polish" impression. Instead of feeling like I'm leading a human rebel army, I feel like I'm just playing chess with an AI who acts as if I wasn't here. Instead of feeling like a four-headed monster loathed by the one he's trying to unite, I feel like some guy visiting another guy living on a planet, said other guy just happens to be an alien hivemind.
I don't really know how to put it in words, but that's how I feel when I play The Last Federation. Maybe the still pictures are to blame. Planets feel empty. Like in that Hot Shots! movie where the general is looking at a photography and complains nobody's moving.

Hmm, the damage projection bit, yeah, I've found it's rather best not to pay too much attention to that.  I actually think it should be changed up quite a bit.  Heck, I was testing something with the Obscura earlier, and something I've noticed with them is that the "DPS" readout thing will say something like 22,000, when I know full well that if the player is in the wrong position, or just makes a bad move, it can deal WAY more than that if they smash into enough shots.   And this goes to the normal ships as well. 

Burlust Warlord fights, yeah, they're getting a ton of changes, but I cant guarantee you'll like them.  They're meant to be sort of a "boss" fight, although not with a power level near what the Obscura are, and only one at a time.  That being said, that one ship is still going to cover the screen in stuff, though the patterns it has are designed to LOOK scary, yet they're actually pretty easy (they actually may be TOO easy right now).  The Warlords will also now move at the speed of a dead frog in sludge, as opposed to their crazy hyperactive dashing that they were doing before.  Their hull/shield values are likely to still be quite off at first though; I didn't do anything with those yet, as I'd kinda like to see how they are when approached during normal gameplay with the changes intact, before I change those base numbers.

The Total War bit:  Hah, yeah, I can see what you mean about the auto-resolve, heh. That, yeah, some fans of that series really dont like it.  Though, it is at least there as an option.  I think it's the sort of thing that's kinda difficult to get right though.  Though I'm not super familiar with the series, so I'm not the best judge of it.


Now as far as having no time to regenerate, hmm, I'm not sure what to say on that one.  I've not really had that problem too much.   If you use an ability though,it'll give you a bit of regen during the flare effect.  And of course there are shield-regen abilities that you can equip.

The bit about the 7 vs 1 fight, do you mean the one against the Hydral Golems?  If so, well.... ahhh, here's where we get to the part that makes balancing things like this so difficult.  See, I'd been thinking for a long time now that those missions were actually WAY too easy.  Even on Misery, I tear through them in a small amount of turns, and they've no chance of stopping me.  However, I've also played the game to death, as well as the fact that I'm *really* familiar with shmups as a whole, and can dodge basically everything while attacking at close range.  Not every player can do that though, and it's difficult for me to judge where the difficulty level of any of this REALLY is. So any feedback on the battle stuff is definitely welcome.  Kinda like the solar map stuff... I've mastered the battle part of the game, but the solar map?  Haha... no.  I still get really kinda lost there, though I'm learning at least... but there's players that can demolish it on the hardest strategic difficulty.    And I imagine that is WAY more difficult to balance than any of the stuff I've been working on, heh.   I dunno how the devs do it.   Anyway though, I'm told that the Hydral Tech fight might be getting some changes, so any feedback about how it and similar things are NOW, is appreciated and will help in deciding how to approach it, if the devs decide to go forward with that idea.  If it DOES get changed, it's not going to be Obscura-level stuff either, but likely more along the lines of the Warlord's difficulty.  Or at least that's what I'd shoot for.  Unless the devs think it needs to be tougher, of course (since those techs ARE really powerful and useful).

Lessee... you mentioned someone starting a war while you were in dispatch, yeah?  Ahh... yeah, there's an issue with that; right now putting it at full speed when you're in a dispatch can make bad things happen FAST.  The game really does need the ability to auto-pause, when something happens like a declaration of war, so that you can decide if you need to abort the dispatch and go fix it (fortunately, even for things like building construction, progress in a dispatch is never actually lost).  Heck, I had one moment in my current game, early on, where I went to do a 6 month dispatch, right, so I started it up, hit full speed, and BAM, it was over.... and the Andors were over too, having been instantly eaten by the Thoraxians.  I hadnt had the chance to do anything!  So I've been using the much slower version of the fast forward, which takes awhile but it guarantees I dont miss anything.  Even if it is bloody annoying to sit through....  But it has at least allowed me to jump in and put a stop to things that would evaporate any further races.  The "things" I'm stopping typically being the Thoraxians each time, the jerks... I'll say, those guys are trouble when they start on a planet with really high compatibility. 

Beyond all that though, all I can say is that I do think the game can take some time to really "click" with someone, as far as the strategic stuff goes. It took awhile for me... my early experiences with the solar map stuff were all of the "what in the heck am I supposed to be doing here?" sort.  A problem would appear, and I wouldnt be sure how in the heck to deal with it, or IF it even could be dealt with at all.  But it gets alot easier as you go along.  Pretty high learning curve though, in my opinion, which can be a little... irritating.  I do think it's worth it though.

You should mark down some of your ideas on Mantis, as some of the things you've mentioned here (like the bit with the moons and freighters) really sound like cool concepts. 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 11:55:53 am by Misery »

Offline Hartmann

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Re: Some uneducated hoi polloi's opinion
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2014, 01:38:06 pm »
The only thing the damage proportion is good at, is helping me figuring out what to spam. Otherwise, yeah, it's all theories.

Burlust Warlords, I remember that kiting them was the only viable strategy, even in easy mode. Now, they're quite pathetic, even through they have enough HP to survive being shot in the fact for 40 turns.

In Total War, the auto-resolve only takes numbers into consideration, and has a tendencies to send your elites troops first. So an elite army will get its head shoved in the dirt by a bunch of filthy bushmen.

It's fairly rare from me to use cards, mostly because I consider them as "bombs" to use in case of emergency rather than considering them as magical spells that respawn each time.

You misunderstood me on the Hydral Golems part : they're not hard, but tedious. All you have to do is circle around them, and they end up dying. Their huge amount of HP makes this annoying as it takes a while, that's all.

As for the war thing, well, I started by killing a burlust warlord. SAD and ANGRY at this treachery, the Burlusts attacked the Skylaxians because reasons, and the Thoraxians jumped on the weakened Thoraxians. Which means that my game is doomed, as thoraxians quickly go out of control once they have another planet.
It would be nice if they could hate each other BEFORE fighting each other, because so far it feels like this :
"Finally, we're free of the Hydra oppression !"
"It is good to be alive, my fellow oppressed !"
"Ha ha ha..."
"Ha ha ha..."
"I'LL KILL YOU !"
"NOT IF I KILL YOU FIRST !"

For the "click", it's mostly subjective, but I have problems with 2D games. Xenonauts doesn't give me any immersion, while XCOM is better in that regard, since you can actually see your base. It feels alive. TLF uses still images, but doesn't give any flavour. For example, AFA are apparently aware that I'm the mastermind behind the Federation deals. Which means that I apparently never have real contact with the populations, only with the leaders. And yet, the Hydra seems to give speeches in some options.


What's Mantis?
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Offline DrFranknfurter

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Re: Some uneducated hoi polloi's opinion
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2014, 05:09:33 am »
What's Mantis?
It's the bug tracker, also you can put suggestions or whatever up on there. Even just feedback. It's better than the forums because the Devs read it first during the working day (they're still on the forums, but work comes first) and they can change the status of your bug to show they've read it/are working on it etc. And give you feedback on the feedback and throw you a thanks in the changelog using the Mantis name you use.
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view_all_bug_page.php
You have to make a new log-in, but nothing is stopping you from using the same name as this forum.

As for the war thing, well, I started by killing a burlust warlord. SAD and ANGRY at this treachery, the Burlusts attacked the Skylaxians because reasons, and the Thoraxians jumped on the weakened Thoraxians. Which means that my game is doomed, as thoraxians quickly go out of control once they have another planet.
It would be nice if they could hate each other BEFORE fighting each other, because so far it feels like this :
"Finally, we're free of the Hydra oppression !"
"It is good to be alive, my fellow oppressed !"
"Ha ha ha..."
"Ha ha ha..."
"I'LL KILL YOU !"
"NOT IF I KILL YOU FIRST !"
Anyway, I think you meant Skylaxian... Although I can easily imagine Thoraxian queens involved in some civil war... actually a fun enough mechanic to be worthy of a mantis suggestion on its own, like so:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=16007

Also I agree, a bit of a warning would be nice. If the trigger for war was offset by x months, during which time there was a gradual deterioration in relations - that you could work to stop - then war wouldn't be quite as instant and you'd feel more deeply involved, better immersion is always good.
Ticket here:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=16008

If you make a mantis account you can post your own, or add comments to other people's tickets. Also if there are duplicate tickets they can be grouped/linked and you can see the colours change as the ideas are considered/acknowledged/assigned/resolved. Which is pretty.

Offline wwwhhattt

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Re: Some uneducated hoi polloi's opinion
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2014, 11:25:48 am »
It would be nice if they could hate each other BEFORE fighting each other, because so far it feels like this :
"Finally, we're free of the Hydra oppression !"
"It is good to be alive, my fellow oppressed !"
"Ha ha ha..."
"Ha ha ha..."
"I'LL KILL YOU !"
"NOT IF I KILL YOU FIRST !"
Would it make sense to have sets of decisions races have to take, which affect the other races opinions of them? That way the races opinions would move more often than they do currently (unless that's been changed recently) so opinion based wars would actually happen, and there would be space the the Hydral to affect the decisions. It's a bit Paradox Grand Strategyish, but it could work.

Failing that the war declaration notifications could have reasons attached (just randomly selected from a database or however these things work). Even if it did nothing but add flavour it would be quite nice.

Offline Hartmann

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Re: Some uneducated hoi polloi's opinion
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2014, 08:09:14 pm »
I'll try the mantis thingy, but so far I prefer whining on the forum. It's less productive, but funnier.



Would it make sense to have sets of decisions races have to take, which affect the other races opinions of them? That way the races opinions would move more often than they do currently (unless that's been changed recently) so opinion based wars would actually happen, and there would be space the the Hydral to affect the decisions. It's a bit Paradox Grand Strategyish, but it could work.

Failing that the war declaration notifications could have reasons attached (just randomly selected from a database or however these things work). Even if it did nothing but add flavour it would be quite nice.

It should. I mean, the galaxy's pretty big, there can't be just 6 colonisables planets. And even so, everyone must be a total donkey to declare war the second they are spacefaring. It's like being finally able to leave your hometown when you reach 18, except that instead of trying to find yourself a nice place to live, you start beating another guy to steal his house.
Can't they just have subjuggulator wars, or minor wars over an outpost of the rest of the Hydral planets? Every war is a war for extermination, it's like everyone is a Dalek.

Hey, that's an idea. I might make a mod on that.
This is the part where I quote someone in an attempt to look clever? Nah, too mainstream. I used signatures before it was cool.