TLF Version 1.009 Released (Merging Beta Branch With Official)

[topper]

Arcen support is easily the best I've seen for any video game developer.

I can happily agree with that 

I mentioned that there is now a mantis for these issues, and I of course understand if they're busy cleaning up the small stuff first. I just wanted to make sure that that thread/mantis is at least something they're aware of, so they can come back to it when they do have time.

I do think some mantis issues get buried (I have a few open from the early alpha still, but they are non-critical) or have too many concepts combined into one ticket.
We can probably help by supporting the Mantis tickets that we like. If you post a list of relevant tickets in one place (like here), then people who care can find them more easily and I would be happy to support some so that they get more visibility.

[Misery]

I agree.  At the moment the universe chugs along and has lots of twisty surprises.  Twisty surprises are good.  After a few plays, though, it feels more like the game plays itself.  My current strategy has been to get everyone to like me, plant seeds of goodwill between races where-ever I can, and then pray I can find two races that like each other enough to start a Federation.

Actions that require more than ten solar months seem to be too costly to consider until late in a game.  In a year race relations can change drastically and races can be instantly wiped out while you're researching a new tech.

Aye, twisty surprises are just fine.

But there's too much "SURPRIIIIISE!!! *splode*" with them right now. 

My idea had been mainly that player actions need to be stronger, but as that thread continued the idea of pacing also came along.  It's fine if actions are slow, that's often the case with strategy titles of any type, but... the pacing needs to slow down to match it.

Which'd make more sense in alot of ways, too.  The idea of a massive galactic war, with the honorable Skylaxians trying to save the solar system from the evil Thoraxians, is a pretty cool idea.  ....but not so much when the entire thing, including preparation for it, finishes in a mere 10 months!   If the game were to slow things down, I could say "Okay, the Skylaxians just said they were gonna go to war, and I can see them now starting to ramp up production/other stuff... I dont want them to totally remove those guys though, so I should set some stuff up before they REALLY get going", and have it actually then be possible to in fact do that.  THAT would be very satisfying.  But right now, it cant be done.  Yet the actual game mechanics, concepts, and AI, those are all in place to allow this sort of awesome strategizing to occur.  Not a problem with the mechanics at all, in my view.

More impact, or less speed, possibly a combination of both, but something's gotta happen there.  It'd be such a major solution to alot of problems.

That, and MOAR STATS!!!  This type of game is like a magnet for the geeky number-cruncher sort, so it should let them drown in numbers like they want to.



Also, if someone wants to squash some of the stuff going on in that thread into a more condensed form and stick it into Mantis to make it more visible for the devs, then by all means do so.   I had already created a mantis ticket with my original post in that topic, and an update recently, but that's all I stuck in there on my own.  I'd do the rest of it, but I'm lazy and impatient and spacey, so it'd work muuuuch better if someone that wasnt me did it.


That all being said, I'd indeed love to know what the devs are up to currently.   Probably hitting things with wrenches behind the scenes, which is probably how programming would work if it were up to me.   I cant imagine they'd be unaware of all of this, though.  They're not at all the inattentive sorts, as we all know.

[lifehole]

I agree.  At the moment the universe chugs along and has lots of twisty surprises.  Twisty surprises are good.  After a few plays, though, it feels more like the game plays itself.  My current strategy has been to get everyone to like me, plant seeds of goodwill between races where-ever I can, and then pray I can find two races that like each other enough to start a Federation.

Actions that require more than ten solar months seem to be too costly to consider until late in a game.  In a year race relations can change drastically and races can be instantly wiped out while you're researching a new tech.

Aye, twisty surprises are just fine.

But there's too much "SURPRIIIIISE!!! *splode*" with them right now. 

My idea had been mainly that player actions need to be stronger, but as that thread continued the idea of pacing also came along.  It's fine if actions are slow, that's often the case with strategy titles of any type, but... the pacing needs to slow down to match it.

Which'd make more sense in alot of ways, too.  The idea of a massive galactic war, with the honorable Skylaxians trying to save the solar system from the evil Thoraxians, is a pretty cool idea.  ....but not so much when the entire thing, including preparation for it, finishes in a mere 10 months!   If the game were to slow things down, I could say "Okay, the Skylaxians just said they were gonna go to war, and I can see them now starting to ramp up production/other stuff... I dont want them to totally remove those guys though, so I should set some stuff up before they REALLY get going", and have it actually then be possible to in fact do that.  THAT would be very satisfying.  But right now, it cant be done.  Yet the actual game mechanics, concepts, and AI, those are all in place to allow this sort of awesome strategizing to occur.  Not a problem with the mechanics at all, in my view.

More impact, or less speed, possibly a combination of both, but something's gotta happen there.  It'd be such a major solution to alot of problems.

That, and MOAR STATS!!!  This type of game is like a magnet for the geeky number-cruncher sort, so it should let them drown in numbers like they want to.



Also, if someone wants to squash some of the stuff going on in that thread into a more condensed form and stick it into Mantis to make it more visible for the devs, then by all means do so.   I had already created a mantis ticket with my original post in that topic, and an update recently, but that's all I stuck in there on my own.  I'd do the rest of it, but I'm lazy and impatient and spacey, so it'd work muuuuch better if someone that wasnt me did it.


That all being said, I'd indeed love to know what the devs are up to currently.   Probably hitting things with wrenches behind the scenes, which is probably how programming would work if it were up to me.   I cant imagine they'd be unaware of all of this, though.  They're not at all the inattentive sorts, as we all know.

Considering that it's one of the most user-voted on mantis tickets, and the biggest thread here, I doubt they aren't aware of it.

[x4000]

Hey guys,

Just so you know, I am aware of the thread, but I have not looked into it for two reasons:

1. Fixing up generalized issues and just getting things in a cleaner state, as well as working on auto-resolve and the other general balance issues with the solar map was something I felt took precedence, and indeed was a prerequisite for even properly considering the kinds of issues being raised.  For example, if there are issues like long-term stalemates of NPC forces, etc, then there's no real point in discussing systems on top of that until that part is resolved.  So that's been the focus first, with the intent to circle around to the other stuff once the foundation was settled better.

2. One of the big things currently missing from my own vision of the game is sufficient quests, which I think honestly will address a lot of your concerns.  I'd kind of rather focus on getting in there and then see what the new evaluations are after that, as the quests in general are meant to be very powerful (but with high opportunity costs, hence the balance there).  THAT said, if there are pacing issues that folks want to discuss in particular, I'd consider that very much a part of the foundation discussed in point 1, and so please throw that up in mantis.  If anyone has a summary of the pacing issues that people feel like are affecting the game, in the next hour or so, I can put in a few things to tune that for tonight's release.

Anyhow, it's a process, and rest assured that I won't ignore something like that.  I just have to focus on kind of one thing at a time (more or less), and getting the foundation really solid before building more house on top of it has been my top priority.  Sorry for not being more communicative on that!

[lifehole]

Hey guys,

Just so you know, I am aware of the thread, but I have not looked into it for two reasons:

1. Fixing up generalized issues and just getting things in a cleaner state, as well as working on auto-resolve and the other general balance issues with the solar map was something I felt took precedence, and indeed was a prerequisite for even properly considering the kinds of issues being raised.  For example, if there are issues like long-term stalemates of NPC forces, etc, then there's no real point in discussing systems on top of that until that part is resolved.  So that's been the focus first, with the intent to circle around to the other stuff once the foundation was settled better.

2. One of the big things currently missing from my own vision of the game is sufficient quests, which I think honestly will address a lot of your concerns.  I'd kind of rather focus on getting in there and then see what the new evaluations are after that, as the quests in general are meant to be very powerful (but with high opportunity costs, hence the balance there).  THAT said, if there are pacing issues that folks want to discuss in particular, I'd consider that very much a part of the foundation discussed in point 1, and so please throw that up in mantis.  If anyone has a summary of the pacing issues that people feel like are affecting the game, in the next hour or so, I can put in a few things to tune that for tonight's release.

Anyhow, it's a process, and rest assured that I won't ignore something like that.  I just have to focus on kind of one thing at a time (more or less), and getting the foundation really solid before building more house on top of it has been my top priority.  Sorry for not being more communicative on that!

I know you said to throw stuff up in mantis, but honestly I don't know if this is anything you can fix in one day. Maybe up the war thresholds again? See the requirements for federation forming etc have been upped, but the AI's political stability is still iffy.

If I had to take a snippet of something in that thread from a pacing standpoint it'd be this

There is another balance option, besides buffing all of the player actions.  And that is toning down the wild swings the game takes.  If instead of a race declaring war on a neutral race and wiping them out in a solar month or two, if the escalation and then eventual war was more gradual, it would give us more time to alter the universe.

This, this is a very good point.

I'm not against the idea of doing something, but having it take some time to really perform it's task.  That's fine.

But that idea utterly breaks down when different things happen fast enough that you CANT do anything about them with the options that you do have.  And this is currently the case.   The game's pacing is still too fast.  The solar system descends into chaos quickly, and there's little that can be done about it.

Heck, part of the point of the Dispatch system is to advance the time, but in a way that you are doing an action WHILE you wait, making it more meaningful.  That alone suggests a slower pace to things overall.  But right now it's like "Ok, I'll just take 8 months to do this here, allright, let's see what happ- OMIGOD THE ANDORS EXPLODED", and that is.... pretty frequent.

[x4000]

Got it.  Generally one change at a time.  I'll put in some changes to that tonight, and we'll see where we are tomorrow.  You guys can certainly feel free to keep commenting on every version, and we'll chip away at it.  I don't expect to fix something like what you're describing in one go either, but having a "if I had a magic wand, what is the thing you'd most like to see addressed first" sort of answer for each version would be helpful to me.  Changing six things at a time generally just leads to more trouble anyhow, when we're talking things that large, heh.

[lifehole]

Got it.  Generally one change at a time.  I'll put in some changes to that tonight, and we'll see where we are tomorrow.  You guys can certainly feel free to keep commenting on every version, and we'll chip away at it.  I don't expect to fix something like what you're describing in one go either, but having a "if I had a magic wand, what is the thing you'd most like to see addressed first" sort of answer for each version would be helpful to me.  Changing six things at a time generally just leads to more trouble anyhow, when we're talking things that large, heh.

Yeah I've kinda been saying that in the thread. You guys are working on a daily basis trying to clean up any mess left over, and daily basis's work well for that. There's a lot of things that can improve the game but nothing that can be implemented in a day.

Ofcourse, you probably could slowly implement something over many releases, but I kinda saw what you guys were getting at with these recent updates; didn't want to start big additions while you were cleaning up the framework.

Again, amazing work.

[Misery]

Got it.  Generally one change at a time.  I'll put in some changes to that tonight, and we'll see where we are tomorrow.  You guys can certainly feel free to keep commenting on every version, and we'll chip away at it.  I don't expect to fix something like what you're describing in one go either, but having a "if I had a magic wand, what is the thing you'd most like to see addressed first" sort of answer for each version would be helpful to me.  Changing six things at a time generally just leads to more trouble anyhow, when we're talking things that large, heh.

If it helps, I think it's mostly a very "overall" sort of thing... I keep using sudden explosive wars as an example, but that's only because they're the easiest to explain, in terms of the "happening too fast, feel like I cant do anything" aspect.

It can be something alot simpler too though... in my current game, the Acutians are building up pretty fast.  Building up for WHAT, I dont know, probably just because they're corporate jerks, but still, that's what they're doing.   They're not at war with anyone, they dont seem to hate anyone, but they keep DOING things at crazy rates.  I know these guys seem a little OP at the moment, but really any race can do this.  I'd like to influence things to slow them down, because, you know, them and their rocket moons...  but as with most events/situations, there's just no way I can do it.  This particular situation is happening too fast.  And the speed at which things happen also makes it then bad when more than one situation is happening at once.... and of course, in a game like this, that's always how it is and should be.  EDIT: Er, the bit about multiple things happening is as it should be, not the "too fast" bit.

An overall slowdown would seriously be a great start.  Slow down the wars, slow down the berserk research rate, slow down everyone farting out outposts all over the place (I swear they build manufacturing outposts just because they like to see how fast they can make the next one).  Essentially just the same simulations, just slowed down to match what the player can/cannot do.   Some specific actions also just genuinely need to be strengthened, my opinion on that hasnt changed, but those bits can wait, I think.  Some weaker actions may seem stronger when the pacing is where it shoiuld be.  It's very similar to that time when it happened in alpha, where you essentially had to do that very same thing, just slow stuff down evenly, and it helped alot.  As opposed to trying to slow down different things/events at different rates.


That I think would be thing #1 that would help.   Thing #2 would be rebalancing the RCI values.  Having them go into the thousands is silly, considering the rate at which dispatches/political actions affect these.  A scale more along the lines of 100 or 200 being "super crazy" instead of 2000 being super crazy would just make alot more sense.


Others might disagree, but yeah, if I had to distill it all into what I thought were the most important single things right now, that'd be it.  I'm convinced it'd be a huge help.


....that being said, yeah, there's ALOT of stuff in that topic.  I aint expecting you guys to have a go at all of that very quickly.  I apologize if I've blown up the forums again with that 

[lifehole]

 Slow down the wars, slow down the berserk research rate, slow down everyone farting out outposts all over the place (I swear they build manufacturing outposts just because they like to see how fast they can make the next one).  Essentially just the same simulations, just slowed down to match what the player can/cannot do.   Some specific actions also just genuinely need to be strengthened, my opinion on that hasnt changed, but those bits can wait, I think.  Some weaker actions may seem stronger when the pacing is where it shoiuld be.  It's very similar to that time when it happened in alpha, where you essentially had to do that very same thing, just slow stuff down evenly, and it helped alot.  As opposed to trying to slow down different things/events at different rates.


That I think would be thing #1 that would help.   Thing #2 would be rebalancing the RCI values.  Having them go into the thousands is silly, considering the rate at which dispatches/political actions affect these.  A scale more along the lines of 100 or 200 being "super crazy" instead of 2000 being super crazy would just make alot more sense.


Others might disagree, but yeah, if I had to distill it all into what I thought were the most important single things right now, that'd be it.  I'm convinced it'd be a huge help.


....that being said, yeah, there's ALOT of stuff in that topic.  I aint expecting you guys to have a go at all of that very quickly.  I apologize if I've blown up the forums again with that 

Pretty much. If there's anything that can be done in terms of a quick tweak-n-fix it's the ridiculous rci values. I had to abuse an exploit to lower their RCI enough to get it to scarytown. Sometimes RCI values go nuts (e.g the evucks getting into like -10k) but I've seen less of that in recent patches, but it's still there.

[x4000]

Done!  Both of those things are implemented and now released. 

[MaskityMask]

I just wanna say it was kinda funny how easy it was to exploit version 1.004 ._. I didn't even realize it myself before my last game before the new patch...

So I for fun choice hardest strategy and combat difficulty and andors as starting race.. Had permadeath and ironman on. I'm not particularly good with this game, but I got really lucky in starting stuff <_< So anyway, I beat first mission by giving andor technology, because beating ships would have taken too long and first thing I did afterwards was having andors trade with everyone.

So after that I noticed that skylaxias get to space soon and I figured out "Bleh, I need money and influence with them so it doesn't matter if andors will hate me" so I just gave them spacefaring tech and so. Since andors where the one 20s away from becoming spacefaring and 1.004 still had mistake of races getting spacefaring tech slower in hardest difficulty and I had andors trade with everyone... Yeaaaaaah, you can kinda guess how it went.

Basically I let them trade with races until peltians liked skylaxians and andor a lot both <_< After that I gave peltians spacefaring tech since it didn't at that point anymore matter what skylaxians and andor thought of me. And that was enough for me to form federation for protection. After that I made mistake of letting evucs go to space first and join federation since I wasn't aware that union of indepent states could form even if races aren't space faring yet... Otherwise I would have made acutians go to space first and then made them join federation. That 5000 credit from smuggling spacefaring tech was really handy in old version.

Anyway, so after union of indepent states was formed, I repeated same thing with thoraxians and now everyone was in federation except three races in union. So I just left the races become one by one spacefaring and get wiped out by federation until union disolved and I recruited acutians.

I never went into combat except the first mission <_< And like I said, I'm not actually particularly good at this game, I just got lucky in that 1) I got cloaking field in the start so I was unable to bypass all the fleets in smuggling missions 2) Andors had enough of resources to trade to both peltians and skylaxians. Though its still amazing how harder strategy difficulty becomes actually series if you know what to do with extra time races get to take to space ._.; In my previous games with harder difficulty I wasted my time doing stuff like researching or raising rci values and such so I never realized extra time could be used to boost race influences with each other without them going to war with each other... And I didn't realize that you don't need races to like you after you have formed the federation.