Arcen Games

General Category => The Last Federation => : x4000 October 31, 2013, 11:57:35 AM

: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 October 31, 2013, 11:57:35 AM
Original: http://christophermpark.blogspot.com/2013/10/preview-simulations-in-last-federation.html


A few weeks ago, we did our first sneak preview of our upcoming game The Last Federation.

The game is a mix of strategy and tactics set in a simulated solar system with 8 planets, each with its own unique race.  The strategy section and the combat (tactics) are two different styles of play, but both are realtime pause-able (and fast-forward-able for the experts).

Your mission is the formation of the first-and-last Solar Federation, to unite whatever races manage to survive the events of the game.  You play as a mercenary fleet plunked down in the middle of a situation that starts out very simply (think the start of a game of Civilization), and which escalates as each of the planets becomes spacefaring and undertakes other activities.

The pacing of a lot of the strategy portion is actually very much up to you, incidentally.  You can smuggle spacefaring technology to races early in exchange for influence with them... but this will anger other spacefaring races if you get caught.  You can hang back and watch a conquest happen and then make friends with the victor (or even help them during their attacks), or you can try to maintain peace throughout the solar system.

Different strategies that you choose to employ are heavily influenced by the situation of the planets.  During some games, the situation on planets will be so poor for the various races that they are a lot more aggressive out of necessity.  Other times the most warlike races may be too distracted by internal war to bother with their neighbors.  Other times you may find that the solar system is pretty peaceable because everyone has resource-rich planets, and thus your biggest threats are from pirates and anti-federation insurgents.

The emergent AI in AI War: Fleet Command, which I've described in detail in the past, is something that works primarily because it is highly multi-agent.  In other words, there are loads and loads of ships in the game -- tens of thousands, usually -- and thus various flocking behaviors and other group activities are able to happen.  Over the years since I originally wrote the AI articles, we've layered on even more layers of AI in that game, including more traditional decision-tree types of AI, and the result is something even richer and more realistic as an opponent.  But none of that would really work without having so very many ships in the game.

The Last Federation takes a similar approach with its simulation.  The simulation of the eight planets, their populace, their buildings, their resources, and their environment is extremely complicated and multi-layered.  This leads to a lot of situations where races take actions purely from emergent circumstances such as who their allies are, what the resources are on their planet, how large their planet is, and so forth.  The starting state of the solar system is varied enough that you get a vastly different result every time.

The cool thing is that you don't have to understand what is going on under the hood as a player -- not remotely.  You are primarily worried about your own mercenary fleet and its influence on each race.  This involves managing the ships you have and winning battles, as well as taking contracts to improve your reputation with various races.



But the simulation isn't just a backdrop to your game: the sorts of contracts you get offered come out of the simulation, and your opportunities to (for instance) sway the course of a war you are not involved in are substantial enough to give you reason to care.  If the Thoraxians are reaping giant swathes of Peltians down, you could help the peltians in a variety of ways (if you even want to help them).  Smuggle them technology or resources, use your bargaining power to bring them new allies that were ignoring them, or take some potshots at the Thoraxian fleet if you dare.

Then of course you later have the challenge of either appeasing the incensed Thoraxians, or finding some other way to get them to join the Federation despite their personal animosity towards you.  While surviving whatever forms of vengeance they may be pursuing against you in the aftermath of their failed war.  But maybe it was worth it, if it finally convinced the Peltians to join the federation.

In another game, the Thoraxians may be your dearest friends and a wonderful killing force ally.  The Peltians may be using their substantial space armadas to make up for their lack of ground combat strength, bombing their enemies into the stone age.  What to do then?

The learning curve on TLF should be worlds easier than the one for AI War, but there's a lot of interesting depth here built on a complex underlying simulation that bubbles up to you in more concrete ways.  You don't necessarily care that the Burlusts have 10m engineers, you care that they are looking to expand their industrial base and that you can get them some key technology to help them do that.

Put another way: the details of the simulated numbers will likely be exposed in an "advanced" screen for each race and planet (we have that for debugging, and will probably make that public so long as it doesn't seem overwhelming), but the real information that you need is easily summarized and digested.

The bottom line is that in The Last Federation you are a part of a larger solar system, and there are many things that go on without your influence or interaction, as in real life.  It's proving really fun and interesting to layer a strategy game inside a simulation game, because it makes the whole thing feel more real without making you manage the true complexity of the simulation itself.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: mrhanman October 31, 2013, 12:51:19 PM
One of the most intriguing parts of Dwarf Fortress to me has always been the detail in which the world is simulated, even the world outside your fort that you don't directly see, but it still later has various effects on the player.  Are there any other games which employ this type of society-building?  Some of the meta-game aspects you mention remind me of Drox Operative to some extent.

Anyway, I can't wait to see where this one starts and ends up.  It sounds great so far!
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: chemical_art October 31, 2013, 01:20:52 PM
This sounds good, in every sense, as long as the ideas pan out. The ideas here simply are the most exciting I've seen from Arcen to date.

Actually, if this delivers, I'll consider this even more exciting then AI War.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 October 31, 2013, 02:07:42 PM
Awesome. :)

And yeah, we're hoping that this will be really ripe for interesting LPs where players get into crazy situations and so forth.  We're simulating citizens by the million, incidentally, with that as the smallest unit of citizenry.  When you have gas giants that could house a billion million humans, you have to get kind of coarse with the numbers. ;)  But realistically most planets have only thousands of millions of citizens most of the time.

We're still heavily inwork on this, but we're all really excited about all three aspects of the game (the simulation, the mercenary fleet management, and the combat model).  All three are pretty unique.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Mánagarmr October 31, 2013, 02:11:19 PM
Huh, this reminds me to some extent of Drox Operative. Cool idea! I likes.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: TechSY730 October 31, 2013, 02:20:21 PM
Sounds like this will sort of have more in common with Space Pirates and Zombies than it does with AI War, in that there is a whole world going around doing stuff you whether you choose to interact with it or not. Except, this sounds like it will be even more expansive and in depth. Sounds cool.

So, this almost sounds like a mix of Civilization and Space Pirates and Zombies, and maybe some of the X<number> series thrown in a bit (in how the world works, not the combat model)? (Yea, I know that X meets Y game comparisons are usually gross oversimplifications that rarely do the game justice, but they do help narrow down what the genre sort of is)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: nas1m October 31, 2013, 02:45:03 PM
Wow :). I am intrigued. This could turn out all kinds of awesome.
One question that occurred to me is: Why did you decide to bring in the concept of the player managing a mercenary fleet (instead of one of the races) in the first place? In my current imagination of how the game might play out it feels a little tacked on. Am I missing something obvious here?
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 October 31, 2013, 03:00:17 PM
In terms of expansive, I'm not sure if that will really be true in the sense that there are only 8 planets and you don't do much exploration.  It's not like you are navigating galaxies and finding lots of new things.  It's more inwardly focused, like SimCity or in a lot of respects Dwarf Fortress.

In terms of why you don't manage one of the civilizations, it's because what they do is a mix of both too complex and too uninteresting.  The core premise of the game was from the start to be managing a small mercenary fleet, and the idea of simulating everything behind the scenes to get the sort of scenarios we wanted came later.  Trying to get everyone unified in peace was also one of the design points from the start.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: chemical_art October 31, 2013, 03:11:57 PM
I will add that if one started as a race, it would feel very much like an 4x, which this current game doesn't (and the fact it isn't trying to be a 4x is for the best)

Acting as a mercenary fleet with your own goals while the various races act as independently is a lot less tried and therefore more interesting.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 October 31, 2013, 03:13:00 PM
That was my thought also.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: nas1m October 31, 2013, 04:18:15 PM
Its okay :). I just asked myself why some mercenaries from another system should care to unify the sol system in peace (instead of e.g. simply raiding them again and again using their (obvious?) technological advantage), I guess.
Interesting concept, nonetheless, though ;).
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 October 31, 2013, 04:52:57 PM
Oh, they are actually from this system, and there's a story with it.  You get to pick which race you are from at the start of the game.  You don't represent the race, that's just what the race is called.  And there's a different hero name for each race, so basically a different character for each one.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: nas1m October 31, 2013, 05:14:45 PM
Ah, I see. Sounds more reasonable that way :). I am looking forward to see how this one will turn out!
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: JAlfredGoodwin October 31, 2013, 05:16:11 PM
Oh, they are actually from this system, and there's a story with it.  You get to pick which race you are from at the start of the game.  You don't represent the race, that's just what the race is called.  And there's a different hero name for each race, so basically a different character for each one.

Are there game mechanic differences for each Origin-Race?  Or is it solely cosmetic?
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Kingpin23 October 31, 2013, 06:07:42 PM
What about randomness.
Is the game setup the same everytime you start it or will it be completly different after every playthrough?
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Conir October 31, 2013, 06:17:56 PM
What about randomness.
Is the game setup the same everytime you start it or will it be completly different after every playthrough?

<<
Different strategies that you choose to employ are heavily influenced by the situation of the planets.  During some games, the situation on planets will be so poor for the various races that they are a lot more aggressive out of necessity.  Other times the most warlike races may be too distracted by internal war to bother with their neighbors.  Other times you may find that the solar system is pretty peaceable because everyone has resource-rich planets, and thus your biggest threats are from pirates and anti-federation insurgents.
<<
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: keith.lamothe October 31, 2013, 06:26:02 PM
There's quite a bit of randomization :)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Kingpin23 October 31, 2013, 06:36:53 PM
There's quite a bit of randomization :)

Thats great.
I like games with a lot of replay value.
Games like Bionic Dues FTL and Spelunky.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: YoukaiCountry October 31, 2013, 06:44:29 PM
Wow, I love games with simulated as opposed to scripted worlds. There just aren't enough of them.
Very much looking forward to it!
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Cyborg October 31, 2013, 08:30:15 PM
How do you lose? Or put in another way, how do gamers who like to be rewarded by their skill level get their payoff in this kind of game?
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Teal_Blue October 31, 2013, 11:51:08 PM
How do you lose? Or put in another way, how do gamers who like to be rewarded by their skill level get their payoff in this kind of game?

Did Chris say that we are trying to unite the planets into the Federation and therefor peace?

My guess is
1.  We may only have a set length of time to do that.

Or,

2. If the game continues until each planet had makes a yes or no decision, giving us an end point.
(Which may mean the game length is variable, from perhaps 20-30 minutes to a couple of hours, depending
on how long it takes me to convince the planets one way or the other.

Where at which point we either win, or lose.
Then go on to another game and different set of situations to face.  :)

-Teal

: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Coppermantis November 01, 2013, 01:22:11 AM
It seems like having one's fleet destroyed would also be a lose condition.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Histidine November 01, 2013, 01:35:23 AM
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 01, 2013, 09:22:32 AM
Oh, they are actually from this system, and there's a story with it.  You get to pick which race you are from at the start of the game.  You don't represent the race, that's just what the race is called.  And there's a different hero name for each race, so basically a different character for each one.

Are there game mechanic differences for each Origin-Race?  Or is it solely cosmetic?

There are intended to be some differences, but as yet I don't have much of an idea what those will actually be, heh.  But each of your flagships will be at least subtly different depending on the race, so there is that.  This is one of those areas we're still working on.

What about randomness.
Is the game setup the same everytime you start it or will it be completly different after every playthrough?

The amount of randomness is pretty extreme, even from the start, yes.  It's always the same 8 races, but there are something like 100 places planets might be. 

There are four planetary zones (Inner System, Habitable Zone, Outer System, and Ice Belt).  There is also an asteroid belt after the asteroid belt, but the only thing in there is pirates, and later space installations that the planets build.  But they aren't there at the start.  Anyway, within those four zones for planets, there are 11 classes of planets: Terrestrial, Transition Desert, Over-Industrialized, Ice Dwarf, Dense Turbulent, Heliosal Desert, Iron Silicate, Molten, Hypertonic Gas Giant, Gauss Gas Giant, and Equatorial Ring.

The planets themselves have various characteristics that are different each game, such as a range of moons, surface area in million sq km, and resource abundances.  All of those things vary in a plausibly-realistic range within each planet type, all of which are based on types of planets (or aspects of planets) found in our own solar system.  Obviously in some places such as with resources we had to take some creative license, but in some of those cases it's assumed that moons are involved in the resource availability.

Anyhow.  That's the planets.  The races themselves then have some randomized attributes that vary per race, and which race is one what kind of planet is different every time.  Also how many of each kind of planet, and even which kinds of planets there are at all, varies each time, I should mention.  The distance of each race from the race you choose determines how quickly they will naturally become spacefaring (since they are spying on you with probes and using that to accelerate their own jump into space), and so that can play into how the early-mid game goes.  Of course, that gets modified by the general compatibility of a race with whatever planet type they are on.

Races also have delayed effects from their starting circumstances, of course.  If you have a rapid-growth race (or a race that requires a lower population density) on a small planet that they are compatible with, then they will quickly hit their "equilibrium" population, and then... something happens.  Depending on the race it could be internal war, just happily clamping to equilibrium, or going on a war of aggression against some other race depending on race relations.

Oh yeah, and the attitudes of each race toward each other race is randomized at the start.  Each race has a certain number of peers that they will "generally like" and the remainder they "generally dislike," and what exactly those quoted things mean fall into a numeric range per race.  Some are naturally friendly but really hate whoever they hate, some are cool to everyone, some hate almost everyone but buddy up with someone else.  Which specific races those are, and the exact values, are randomized from the start.  And then of course those act as the starting values from which things change from then onwards in the game, it's not like it stays there all that long.

So... yeah.  Off the top of my head, those are the elements that vary between solar systems at the start of the game. :)

How do you lose? Or put in another way, how do gamers who like to be rewarded by their skill level get their payoff in this kind of game?

We are still experimenting with this, but right now it when you, personally, die.  You live in your flagship, and if that blows up you are dead.  You can fight using your flagship, but you may wish not to because of the risk.  The battles are quick and brutal.  As to the larger solar system, it could be consumed in fire and war and you wouldn't lose until the assassins of the reigning race finally finish you off.  Which likely would not be long.

Generally speaking, most of the conditions that seem fail-y are things that are likely to result in your death anyhow, so probably additional conditions are not needed.  In terms of "winning well," there are probably a variety of things that we can set up for that.  Winning with no races dead, for instance, or winning with only one race alive.  Winning with only a fleet of size X or technology Y or whatever.

My guess is
1.  We may only have a set length of time to do that.

There are no actual time limits, but games are unlikely to go overlong as things would generally get into the area of "you die hilariously" if you dawdle endlessly.  But it's an organic thing, so if you can maintain a solar system with no federation for 100 hours or something... well, the game will just keep on trucking.  Honestly I don't know how long a single game will take yet, but we're hoping it will be something like 3-5 hours most times.  Much shorter than AI War, and intense the whole time.

  • The simulation and our ability to influence it sounds rather like Starsector. I think I'm going to like this.
  • Eight different races developing independently in the same solar system strikes me as rather unlikely :P
  • Presumably the Federation is the brainchild of whichever of the eight races were able to develop space capability before the others? Or is some outside third party involved in this?

The first race to become starfaring is the race you choose to be.  The idea of the federation is yours, but the backstory differs depending on which race that is.  Also: everything is unlikely until it happens. ;)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: keith.lamothe November 01, 2013, 09:59:23 AM
Also: everything is unlikely until it happens. ;)
But for every incredibly-unlikely thing that just happened, there's usually a much more plausible explanation that something far more likely is what actually occurred ;)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 01, 2013, 10:01:31 AM
Well, that too. :)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: chemical_art November 01, 2013, 11:45:39 AM

There are intended to be some differences, but as yet I don't have much of an idea what those will actually be, heh.  But each of your flagships will be at least subtly different depending on the race, so there is that.  This is one of those areas we're still working on.

Have you considered having the player influence some of the traits of the race either during early game or before the game starts? It doesn't have to be total control like making races in other 4X's, but maybe it can. Anyway, it could help give a degree of stability to the otherwise random galaxy. Could be interesting either making a weak race that is easy to bring into the federation, or a strong race the player has to intentionally blunt most of the game.

Another idea is the have the reverse occur: starter race influences the player's abilities. So a warlike race has the player have stronger fleet, diplomatic race gives greater diplomacy, etc. This path could be taken to the extreme similar to pilots in BD.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 01, 2013, 02:12:02 PM
Yeah, having the races impact player abilities is basically what I've been thinking -- exactly so.  Some are better at negotiating or fighting, etc.  You also have easier relations with your own race, so if you pick a race that is normally hard to bring into the federation then that is good for you in some ways... but that doesn't stop them from wars of aggression against non-federation folks, so that can be an issue.  Etc.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: madcow November 01, 2013, 03:16:56 PM
This sounds cool! While I'm sure the gameplay is completely different, the concept sounds remarkably close to Drox Operative.  Except without the incredible game-killing tedium that it had in exploration/getting around, but the core concept of it was great and could be quite nice here as a different styled game.

: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: keith.lamothe November 01, 2013, 03:19:52 PM
This sounds cool! While I'm sure the gameplay is completely different, the concept sounds remarkably close to Drox Operative.  Except without the incredible game-killing tedium that it had in exploration/getting around, but the core concept of it was great and could be quite nice here as a different styled game.
Yea, the conceptual similarity is definitely there.  The gameplay could hardly be more different, though :)

Drox is one of my favorite games, but we are doing something rather distant from that.  Closer to some other games in some ways, we'll see.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Teal_Blue November 01, 2013, 03:33:53 PM
Just a thought, but i was wondering if there might be ranges in the warfare kinds of activity, meaning the races have other things to do as well... like say a planet that is heavily technological and has a planetary defense that is 90% effective and it spends a large percentage of its time on research, which it may sell, or perhaps use to further protect itself.

Or farm worlds that are protected by fleets of a planets own orbital ships, or ground based defenses.

Or perhaps races that are into literature or even drama and spend their time in video/computer game heaven while the world races, surges, wars and dies around them?

I guess what i am saying is if the planets were engaged in things other than just shooting at one another?
Or is that boring?

Anyway, just a thought,
-Teal

p.s.  actually, what chemical_art said is right on the money. 
:)


: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 01, 2013, 03:47:23 PM
Just a thought, but i was wondering if there might be ranges in the warfare kinds of activity, meaning the races have other things to do as well... like say a planet that is heavily technological and has a planetary defense that is 90% effective and it spends a large percentage of its time on research, which it may sell, or perhaps use to further protect itself.

Or farm worlds that are protected by fleets of a planets own orbital ships, or ground based defenses.

Or perhaps races that are into literature or even drama and spend their time in video/computer game heaven while the world races, surges, wars and dies around them?

I guess what i am saying is if the planets were engaged in things other than just shooting at one another?
Or is that boring?

Oh yes, quite.  Wars do happen, but most of the time the solar system is not actively at war.  It's probably possible to avoid any wars at all in some games, although others might be a murder-fest due to circumstances.  But more of the gametime is likely spent with no wars at all rather than with even any one war on.

Pirates, insurgents, and other forces are your main direct combat threat.  Generally as a mercenary fleet, going up against planetary forces is not the best, although sometimes it is.  You're also mainly on a mission to win favor with the various races and thus convince them to join the federation, so not everything you do is directly military in the first place.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Teal_Blue November 01, 2013, 03:50:08 PM
Just a thought, but i was wondering if there might be ranges in the warfare kinds of activity, meaning the races have other things to do as well... like say a planet that is heavily technological and has a planetary defense that is 90% effective and it spends a large percentage of its time on research, which it may sell, or perhaps use to further protect itself.

Or farm worlds that are protected by fleets of a planets own orbital ships, or ground based defenses.

Or perhaps races that are into literature or even drama and spend their time in video/computer game heaven while the world races, surges, wars and dies around them?

I guess what i am saying is if the planets were engaged in things other than just shooting at one another?
Or is that boring?

Oh yes, quite.  Wars do happen, but most of the time the solar system is not actively at war.  It's probably possible to avoid any wars at all in some games, although others might be a murder-fest due to circumstances.  But more of the gametime is likely spent with no wars at all rather than with even any one war on.

Pirates, insurgents, and other forces are your main direct combat threat.  Generally as a mercenary fleet, going up against planetary forces is not the best, although sometimes it is.  You're also mainly on a mission to win favor with the various races and thus convince them to join the federation, so not everything you do is directly military in the first place.

Wonderful!!  :)

: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: madcow November 01, 2013, 04:55:57 PM
Now that peacetime activities are cleared up will glazing an entire planet be an option ;). Not necessarily by us, but by renegades or other planetary systems. By us would be cool too though ;)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 01, 2013, 05:03:52 PM
One of the wimpiest races, the Evucks, has a last-ditch special action they can take when under attack.  It's called Ignite Gas Giant.  They can only do it if they are on a gas giant, and they have to do it before they either die or the attack is thwarted.  But that "glazes" quite a bit more than just one planet.

One of the robotic races, the Acutians (these guys are kind of jerks), is able to build a "planet cracker."  They have to have a lot of engineers and a lot of time, plus an uncolonized moon to spare on their planet.  But when they are done, this launches their moon straight at another planet and... well, bye.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Teal_Blue November 01, 2013, 06:02:33 PM
One of the wimpiest races, the Evucks, has a last-ditch special action they can take when under attack.  It's called Ignite Gas Giant.  They can only do it if they are on a gas giant, and they have to do it before they either die or the attack is thwarted.  But that "glazes" quite a bit more than just one planet.

One of the robotic races, the Acutians (these guys are kind of jerks), is able to build a "planet cracker."  They have to have a lot of engineers and a lot of time, plus an uncolonized moon to spare on their planet.  But when they are done, this launches their moon straight at another planet and... well, bye.


This i have to see!   :)

: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: madcow November 01, 2013, 07:00:35 PM
Yeah. That's pretty awesome!
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Shrugging Khan November 01, 2013, 07:30:06 PM
Huh, this reminds me to some extent of Drox Operative. Cool idea! I likes.

This.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Cyborg November 01, 2013, 10:17:08 PM
One of the defining characteristics of AI war is just how many obstacles you can put in front of yourself; the challenge is adjustable, and it feels like the experience is even more rewarding when you can take on that much more because you are skilled. You don't get to see, fight, or experience half of what you do when you don't know how to play.

That's what I mean by rewarding skilled players.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Teal_Blue November 01, 2013, 10:36:35 PM
That sounds pretty cool!

: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Volatar November 03, 2013, 09:06:58 PM
I am super excited to get in on the ground floor testing this thing. Hopefully the alpha comes before X Rebirth is released or I will have time conflicts. :)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Rekka November 04, 2013, 04:42:15 AM
That sound indeed very interesting and very unique game as usual with Arcen. :) Can't wait to see more of it! :D
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: tigersfan November 04, 2013, 08:59:43 AM
I am super excited to get in on the ground floor testing this thing. Hopefully the alpha comes before X Rebirth is released or I will have time conflicts. :)

I'm guessing it won't be, sorry. :(

That said, I may have to excercise some self-control to not play X:R all the time myself. That is, assuming they don't screw it up. :p
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 04, 2013, 09:22:46 AM
One of the defining characteristics of AI war is just how many obstacles you can put in front of yourself; the challenge is adjustable, and it feels like the experience is even more rewarding when you can take on that much more because you are skilled. You don't get to see, fight, or experience half of what you do when you don't know how to play.

That's what I mean by rewarding skilled players.

Oh, I gotcha -- yeah, that makes sense.  For this game we aim to have a super-simple "quick start" way for players to get into the game that is basically like "what difficulty do you want, and what race?" and not much more than that.  The amount of randomization and the hugely varied situations you would run into just from that alone will lead to all sorts of hilarity (as we've already been noting in early testing where we just let the simulation run on superspeed and see what the races do without any intervention from the player).

But we also plan to have an Advanced Setup mode that is more like the AI War lobby, where you can change a bunch of different things and create some insane challenges.  Some of the ones I've thought of are letting the player kind of have a "semi-restart" in an advanced solar system that they have already won or lost, so that they can take some crazy late-game situation that they are familiar with, and use it as a starting point for a new game.  Brutal. 

Another option that doesn't require an existing save will be to just "start X minutes into the game," where we basically fast-forward the simulation for you for however long, and your mercenary fleet then enters a more mature galaxy.  Some race might already have taken over half the galaxy and created a Fear Empire, or a couple of races might have created a Solar Axis Pact.  All of the races would probably be spacefaring, and there might be some intense Psyops going on between a couple of them.  Maybe a gas giant already ignited and half the solar system is gone.  Etc.

We could probably also make some advanced options for specifically starting with circumstances along those lines, too.  There is some nasty stuff that can crop up later in the game if you don't watch what is going on, and letting you get straight to that is pretty interesting.  Probably cool to do modifiers on various things like having the ability to make Anti-Federation Demonstrators a lot more likely or numerous, or having them turn into insurgents straightaway instead of just demonstrators, etc.

Likely we won't have the advanced setup screen at first in the alpha unless we wind up needing it for testing purposes (which we might, not sure), but the game is so full of crazy stuff that can happen that it's not hard to turn on things saying "okay this has happened before the game started" or similar.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: nas1m November 04, 2013, 09:28:19 AM
... the game is so full of crazy stuff that can happen that it's not hard to turn on things saying "okay this has happened before the game started" or similar.
I can't think of much that would have increased my excitement about the new game more than these few words ;D...
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: mrhanman November 04, 2013, 09:58:22 AM
Another option that doesn't require an existing save will be to just "start X minutes into the game," where we basically fast-forward the simulation for you for however long, and your mercenary fleet then enters a more mature galaxy.

This sounds like an incredibly powerful replay enhancer.  The gameplay possibilities this enables boggles the mind.

Will there be any explanation for how so many sentient races arose in a single solar system?  Not that it's terribly important.  I was just curious.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 04, 2013, 10:04:55 AM
Possibly, I'm not sure.  There's a fine line between having too much backstory that it all starts to become same-y, and having not enough of a story that it feels kind of hollow.  All of that is still being developed, as largely the gameplay is being developed before the bulk of the story.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Teal_Blue November 04, 2013, 07:38:09 PM
One of the defining characteristics of AI war is just how many obstacles you can put in front of yourself; the challenge is adjustable, and it feels like the experience is even more rewarding when you can take on that much more because you are skilled. You don't get to see, fight, or experience half of what you do when you don't know how to play.

That's what I mean by rewarding skilled players.

Oh, I gotcha -- yeah, that makes sense.  For this game we aim to have a super-simple "quick start" way for players to get into the game that is basically like "what difficulty do you want, and what race?" and not much more than that.  The amount of randomization and the hugely varied situations you would run into just from that alone will lead to all sorts of hilarity (as we've already been noting in early testing where we just let the simulation run on superspeed and see what the races do without any intervention from the player).

But we also plan to have an Advanced Setup mode that is more like the AI War lobby, where you can change a bunch of different things and create some insane challenges.  Some of the ones I've thought of are letting the player kind of have a "semi-restart" in an advanced solar system that they have already won or lost, so that they can take some crazy late-game situation that they are familiar with, and use it as a starting point for a new game.  Brutal. 

Another option that doesn't require an existing save will be to just "start X minutes into the game," where we basically fast-forward the simulation for you for however long, and your mercenary fleet then enters a more mature galaxy.  Some race might already have taken over half the galaxy and created a Fear Empire, or a couple of races might have created a Solar Axis Pact.  All of the races would probably be spacefaring, and there might be some intense Psyops going on between a couple of them.  Maybe a gas giant already ignited and half the solar system is gone.  Etc.

We could probably also make some advanced options for specifically starting with circumstances along those lines, too.  There is some nasty stuff that can crop up later in the game if you don't watch what is going on, and letting you get straight to that is pretty interesting.  Probably cool to do modifiers on various things like having the ability to make Anti-Federation Demonstrators a lot more likely or numerous, or having them turn into insurgents straightaway instead of just demonstrators, etc.

Likely we won't have the advanced setup screen at first in the alpha unless we wind up needing it for testing purposes (which we might, not sure), but the game is so full of crazy stuff that can happen that it's not hard to turn on things saying "okay this has happened before the game started" or similar.


This sounds totally awesome!! I am really looking forward to this!  :)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: DrFranknfurter November 11, 2013, 11:57:27 PM
Simplified Question:
Any similarity to, or inspiration from: Space Rangers? (how will Quests and Ground combat be handled?)

Full version:
This all sounds interesting... I'm curious about how similar the game will be to Space Rangers. A different scale but a similar number of races, simulating planets, wars going on in the background and you as a merc/ranger with some ships helping or hindering. I really liked space rangers 2 and yet if this ends up quite different I'm sure it'll be well worth a look based on Arcen's unique magic.
One thing I'd take from space rangers: the start-up difficulty options for both beginners and for replaying. It lists factors including quest difficulty, your luck, equipment failures, tech pace, scientist intelligence, goods price ranges... each clearly modifying your score multiplier. Plus global choices of just easy-medium-hard-vhard for quickstart.
It's simple but extremely effective at incentivising unpleasant settings and making it very obvious whether, for example, a low price range is 'good' or 'bad'. (low=harder game. In reality it's more complex than that, since you may never do any trading and the effects will be secondary - value of loot pirated, net worth of traders/pirates etc. (which aren't always your friends) and it encourages you to do more quests instead which may be easier)

Perhaps consider the games starting settings, or ranges for settings and consider taking notes of the resulting difficulty so that each can be grouped into categories that can be easy, medium, hard, impossible. +random, nightmarish and lovecraftian horror story.
e.g. Species behaviour:
clear and simple, shades of grey, complex and passionate (+twitchy little buggers, insane insomniacs with multiple personalities all of them easily offended)
Starting conditions:
plentiful resources, limited resources, running out of rocks (+everythings made of explodium or just plutonium, decaying homeworlds-forces planets to go to war more quickly over limited resources without hindering early growth)
Detachment:
I'm not with those guys, Ok, so I'm human, I'm 'the' human and it's all my fault. (+you're barely human you ugly alien-hugger, worst of all worlds a federation of failures)

I'm just thinking of AI war in comparison, the planet numbers, map type and 0-10 scale of minor severity doesn't have any clear and obvious impact on difficulty... except hints that extremes are probably but maybe not entirely unwinable (10 dyson sphere... I can't tell if every other world is going to be an angry monster that wants to kill me or not. In reality usually not at all significant. 4 FS on the other hand is massively difficult for a noobie) plus added confusion from using a different 0-10 scale than the AIs scale (average being 4, 7 respectively) and the hard/exos options seem more like toggling favourite mechanics than actual changes in difficulty. Most ships are balanced so there aren't easy bonus ships and hard ships... but that would be interesting as a choice if you began with a different tier of bonus ship... I digress heavily but you can see I'm rambly giddy at the news

Quests... obviously some system is required to gain influence and whatnot but how will they be handled? text based with long backstory or a bullet-point list... any special rewards to them? How big an impact will your actions have, what choices can you make?

Ground combat: is the focus entirely on ship-to-ship encounters or will there be a chance to help with orbital bombardments and ground combat via minigames...or something?


Oh and I saw the answer to this question already
[edit, moved]
Will it be singleplayer or multiplayer? (shared control, co-op, vs, something like the champions in AI war)
(noticed the quote: "Right now... looking like our second single player game.  Some designs just don't lend themselves well to multiplayer unfortunately." I'm still curious if anythings changed or for co-op, shared control or whatever even if combat is 1 on 1)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 12, 2013, 08:42:48 AM
Whew! Lots of questions. ;)

First, let me preface this by saying that I've not played Space Rangers, although Keith really loves it.  My understanding is that this game doesn't really bear much resemblance to it.

There aren't really quests in the classic sense in this game; there are "contracts," but those work very differently from an RPG.  Some of them insta-complete in exchange for resources, others require combat or a series of combats, etc. 

The text that will be there is largely for flavor and to get a sense of the races and individuals you are working with, not there to have lengthy RPG-like dialogue trees.  Rather than this being some sort of really scripted story or set of stories that you get tired of, I really am hoping to see Boatmurdered-style LPs with the hilarious exploits of solar systems gone wrong.  In other words, I would not class this as an RPG at all, even though there will be more text than in an average strategy game.

In terms of starting difficulties, we intend to have a quick start option that is good for new players and just gets them in there simply.  And then later also an advanced start option that lets you tune a variety of things.  Think how Civilization V lets you customize things.  Or AI War to some extent, although in AI War it obviously isn't optional to go through the scary complex screen.

Oh, in terms of rewards from the contracts, it's a variety of things.  The most direct and common things are money, general bargaining power, and influence with a specific race (lost or gained).  But the important thing to remember is that all the contracts CHANGE things.  If you destroy or damage a race's ship at a planet, that ship is then destroyed or damaged.  If you blow up the soletta array at a planet, that thing is just plain gone.  If you start bombing a planet, not only do they start hating you more, but their populace is partly killed in each bombing run.  And you never know how their enemies might react to that.  Etc.

So it's less about rewards per se, and more about how you can manipulate the situation to your benefit.  You can also steal technology and capture space outposts and so forth, and those do also work as direct benefits for you.  But you can gift them or so on, as well.  I have not played Drox Operative, but I have heard enough about it since starting this project that I think I can safely say that this project is closer to that game than Space Rangers.  But honestly I think this game really stands apart in a "there's really not anything else like it" sense.

For ground combat, you don't really get involved in that directly.  You can hire saboteurs that do some bits of dirty work for you if you want (this isn't a contract, this is something you can buy at the market, like also buying informants, heh).  Ground combat soldiers are on each planet belonging to the various races (remember, you are mercenaries and thus do not control a race).  Their troops make it across the divide on troop ships when a fleet attacks, and the combat is simulated out of sight (though you can see the population numbers fluctuating).  Some races are scary good with ground combat compared to some others.

In the future, doing other "minigames" (so to speak) for various activities such as bombings and ground combat is something I would very much be interested in doing.  To me that's just adding more and more to the part of the simulation that the player can take part in, and I think that's exciting.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: keith.lamothe November 12, 2013, 08:49:47 AM
First, let me preface this by saying that I've not played Space Rangers, although Keith really loves it.  My understanding is that this game doesn't really bear much resemblance to it.
You're correct :)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: DrFranknfurter November 14, 2013, 09:16:26 AM
Thanks for the replies, it sounds really interesting and I'm grateful for the speed and depth of your responses. Insta-completing contracts sounds like less of a hassle than normal quests (though it also stops the rpg staple of 'give me the money', 'I just did it because I'm nice' options), quick-start is great especially if you have the best of both worlds and have complex starts too, I hope the complex starts aren't too intimidating. I'm curious about bargaining power... is it some 'diplomatic capital' that's spent e.g. buy the soletta array for 10k, or does it influence what you can buy with standard money, e.g. buy the soletta array for 10k credits at 'trusted' level. So unlocking things at certain thresholds?

I love the growing complexity that arises from simulations so I'll be watching. The sense of realism and naturally flowing stories it produces in game facinates me... I studied a little population dynamics and it's wonderful how much complexity can arise from even just 3 variables, never mind as many as you unavoidably get in games. Things like birth rates, death rates, infections (which I could imagine all being involved in your planet pop growth model)... add in time and distance (say multiple planets or multiple cities/continents) and you can end up with odd solutions to problems and beautiful patterns to watch unfold. The maths isn't too different if you're talking about the spread of plants, fire, disease or the colonisation of space... just renaming variables and tuning the constants.

I'd suggest you have a go at space rangers, it's worthy of Keith's love and playing a new game always helps to see things in a new light. My favourite aspects of space rangers could be summed up in two event chains:
An NPC pirate demands cargo from a merchant, he starts asking others for help, merchants, diplomats and local battleships start chasing down the pirates who offers up credits to be left alone before landing on a planet and being put in prison for a few months.
You attack an infested system with help, aiding a space station that performs a hyperspace jump to attack and unleashes a wave of fighters. Dominators dead, gain loot/rewards... then clear the planet surface and since the entire sector is free new space stations are built. I use the money to buy some more and feel like I've shaped that sector and the entire war effort.
(It gets a little repetative with missions, the end-game feels dull whatever you do, translation from russian has lost a little magic in the process, fewer amusing puns and the like. But I think if you consider it research into persistent and living worlds in single-player games then you could use it as an excuse to spend a few hours on [edit] both Space Rangers and Drox Operative (I've never tried it, looking at it now): purely for research purposes :P)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 14, 2013, 09:29:13 AM
Sure thing.

For the insta-completing of contracts, in a lot of ways often it is like taking a mission in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance.  You accept the mission, go into the battle or whatever, and then win or lose.

For bargaining power, it's basically political capital, yes.  It's separate from money.  You mainly use money for influencing your own fleet and its finances, whereas you use bargaining power more to influence the overall situation in the galaxy.  You can't really buy something like a soletta array or whatever, you have to be a bit more indirect about that (outsourcing the use of a science lab of yours to help them do that, etc).  The bargaining power is more about larger maneuver, like getting an informant or what have you.

I'd love to play Space Rangers when I get a chance at some point, but right now it's mainly an available-time sort of limitation.  Very little gaming time at the moment, between work on TLF and then family stuff.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: DrFranknfurter November 14, 2013, 11:28:02 AM
It's not bad to be busy with a game you're obviously so excited about, but if you were to pick a time to play other games- for ideas, design impressions and general inspiration not merely for fun- the alpha/pre-alpha stage is probably the latest point where you've still got enough time before release to actually add anything that you are inspired by. A chance to compare and constructively contrast with what you have... that sort of thing.

Anyway, thanks again for responding. Good luck and keep busy, I'll be looking forward to screenshots and looking out for interviews, blog posts and the like. Watching a game being made is like seeing the pyramids as a drawing in the sand and then watching dream take substance, rising higher and eventually, standing the test of time as a subtle (or not so subtle) background feature in the lives of millions.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 14, 2013, 11:48:40 AM
Yep, no problem. :)

And agreed on pre-alpha being the time for looking for inspiration from other projects, but honestly I'm not really looking for that with this game anymore; already been through that phase with this one.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: DrFranknfurter November 16, 2013, 05:51:36 PM
Just had a chance to try the Drox Operative demo, only 130mb, I found it surprisingly similar to depths of peril by the same makers-character, inventory, relations... and general aRPG stuff lifted almost directly but now 'in space!'. Fun despite not being too much of a creative leap... UI and game-pace is still as busy, hectic and messy as Depths of Peril which is a shame. Though I may sound unimpressed I still quite like it as I liked Depths of Peril. If The Last Federation is closer in form to Drox than space rangers I'm quite intrigued.

Still, my humble list of flaws from the Drox demo you may wish to avoid in The Last Federation:
The big lists of shallow quests, (you shouldn't be able to solve most of the quests without trying or even caring, though the nice 'solve quest' button is necessary if you're completing dozens of quests)
Too much insignificant information (+0.01 relations! yipee! Sure, add 0.01, just don't shout about it. Perhaps have a theshold for when any change is important with major numbers given some form of highlighting like bold, red or extra large font and insignificant numbers in a small font, grey, faded or transparent)
I wouldn't mind a starting setting to change the pace of events/quests/etc. to 10xslower (so only 0-2 (3 max) quests offered at any one time so each one actually matters and is worth caring about. Perhaps with modestly increased rewards again for significance). I understand the intention for a fast pace but some people prefer to take their time and may be put-off by all the rushing around. It'd be nice if the quests offered involved a choice in and of itself, so that choosing one cancelled the others, picking sides in a conflict or whatever.
Drox Quests: My first quest is to eradicate my own race... non-optional... I've never had a more strange and nonsensical quest in any game. Always a possibility when you have randomly generated stuff if you're a bit sloppy in the execution. (I think I'm supposed to be part of the Drox, but I'd rather quit it and damn their mission than slaughter my own kind and my only ally.)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Penumbra November 18, 2013, 09:52:59 PM
::poke::

  ;)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: keith.lamothe November 18, 2013, 10:03:01 PM
::poke::
::falls::

Ow!
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Penumbra November 19, 2013, 03:22:05 AM
 :o

I think I missed.....
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 20, 2013, 09:06:19 AM
Sorry about that, it's been a really hectic week for me.  At first I was sick, then I've just been really busy, and this has been sitting on my list of things to look at.

DrFranknfurter: a lot of what you're talking about are things we are very consciously trying to avoid.  Whether or not we actually do, we'll see.

But one thing to remember is that we don't really have "quests" in the same sense that Drox does.  We do have tons of contracts, which in many ways are like quests, but most of them are always available (or contextually available for a very long time, anyway).  So if you don't decide to bomb some planet, or you do decide to gift them an outpost or smuggle stuff for them or whatever, you can do that more or less whenever.  There's not a timer ticking away on those contracts, but choosing one over another is where the strategy comes in.

There are other things that are more time-limited of course, and these we call Events.  They are often things that you may not care to do anything about at all.  Burlusts suffering from a disease?  You may be super happy about this!  It may be the answer to your prayers.  Or you might just be indifferent.  Or you might want to help them as quickly as you are able.  It depends on your future plans for dealing with them, and if you are trying to manipulate them into doing something specific that will be helped or hindered by the disease, etc. 

Same sort of deal if the Andors are celebrating their Freedom Day holiday -- crime is going down on their planet, and you may be happy about this or you might intentionally be trying to push crime up for some reason with them (there are various reasons you might do that).  So the event does matter, but it again is not something you have to deal with right away.  Just because their holiday lasts for 10 months or so (not all that long in game-time, that's a bit over 3 minutes), that doesn't mean you actually have to deal with it in that timeframe.  In fact, quite often with something like that in particular, it's something you might want to hang back and see the results of, then later decide how to deal with the aftermath.  Maybe pushing them into a cesspit of crime isn't the way after all, or maybe you redouble your efforts, or whatever else.

Beyond that, the alien races themselves are taking actions, and may be initiating war, retraining soldiers into doctors to fight off a disease, researching technology, breeding like crazy, researching new ship technology, fighting an internal war, or doing whatever else.  These are things that happen in realtime, sure, and you can't deal with everything at once.  But you also don't really have to.  The key stats that matter for your actual victory condition don't go up or down without your direct actions.  (That said, if you do nothing or do the wrong thing, conditions can deteriorate to the point that you die or get in a bad way, even though your technical progress towards victory did not go backwards at all).

Overall there are three main groups of things to pay attention to: racial actions, events, and the status of specific planets.  It doesn't take long to digest this information, and each can be concisely displayed on its own screen to show you all the actions on one screen, all the events on another, and all the planetary statuses on another.  And I do also plan on working in as many overlays as possible to make the use of subscreens less of a requirement as well.  Of course if you WANT to delve into more details, we have those, too.  A lot of that UI design is still very much in progress, but the underlying gameplay is something we're specifically designing with the idea of having a comprehensible UI for it.  If the underlying game isn't compatible with a GUI that easily summarizes, then you just plain are going to have a complex UI, period.

Put another way, I think the comparison to Drox is apt in that there is more going on than you can deal with at any one time.  That's also true of SimCity, usually.  But we are taking a lot of steps to make sure it's understandable to players, and that there isn't a sense of rush.  AND that there is a sense of progression.

When you first start the game, there's only one planet/race doing anything at all.  A second planet becomes spacefaring pretty soon after.  Depending on your difficulty level, there are no events at all right at first, but there then becomes one event at a time one two planets are online.  And then every 2 planets after that until you have 4 events max at one time in the late game.  Plus obviously 8 races each with two actions, rather than just a couple of races with two actions.  But by then you are more in control of the situation, and you ought to have a federation progressing such that you really only have to pay close attention to the actions of the non-federation races.  Of course if you want to make things crazier earlier you can smuggle spacefaring tech to planets early (and this is a valid tactic for advanced play in particular), or you can use the Advanced Start to set up more complex starting scenarios in general if you're to that level of play.

With TLF more than any other game prior to it, one of the things we have been really paying attention to design-wise is not only how complex/fun the game is, but also how to gradually ease the player into that, and how to make it fun right from the start even when the complexity isn't huge yet.

Hope that sets your mind at ease some!
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Penumbra November 20, 2013, 04:43:57 PM
  At first I was sick . . .

See! It's justified that we worry when you don't post....  :D

Glad you're feeling better.

Thank you for ever keeping us in the loop.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 20, 2013, 04:56:55 PM
You bet, and thanks as well. :)
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Teal_Blue November 20, 2013, 10:50:59 PM
@x4000,
                  your post on page 4 was really cool and interesting, thank you for the new information, it is fascinating to hear how you all are putting it all together.  :)

: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 November 21, 2013, 08:21:23 AM
My pleasure, Teal!
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: nas1m November 29, 2013, 01:37:16 AM
::poke::
  ;)
Okay I will give this a try myself:
::poke::?

Another random blob of news perhaps ;)? I am quite excited to see how this one turns out...
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Wingflier December 02, 2013, 02:55:50 AM
First thing I thought when I read this article was an RTS version of Drox Operative.

The 8 races, the small group of mercenaries, the emergent quests, and how you are supposed to take the situation and mold it to your advantage - forging alliances, sabotaging enemies, and slowly puppeteering the entire solar system to your goal.

Anyway, it sounds like a lot of fun. I wish it were multiplayer!
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Misery December 03, 2013, 08:45:36 PM
First thing I thought when I read this article was an RTS version of Drox Operative.

The 8 races, the small group of mercenaries, the emergent quests, and how you are supposed to take the situation and mold it to your advantage - forging alliances, sabotaging enemies, and slowly puppeteering the entire solar system to your goal.

Anyway, it sounds like a lot of fun. I wish it were multiplayer!


I'm getting the impression that the Drox comparison is going to be made really often.

I've now shown the game to a few people, which includes the topic containing the explanation of how it's different from Drox, and the same thing was said by all:  "Cool, it sounds just like Drox".  Hopefully once there are trailers they'll be able to show enough so that it shows it's uniqueness. 
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Cyborg December 03, 2013, 09:26:09 PM
I think we all need to see the game before making comparisons, but I'm sure that it has elements of a lot of other games. One thing you won't have the same as drox- lawnmowing unexplored space (did they fix that yet? I asked for a refund over that issue, it bored me to tears).
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 December 05, 2013, 09:56:44 AM
I think that comparisons to many things are inevitable of course, but I think that the screenshots and videos really won't feel like drox at all.  I'm not really sure what other games people will think they evoke (I can think of a few, but people always surprise me), but I doubt drox will be among them.

Anyhow, I've posted a random blob of news, sorry for the delay.  Been really busy!

In terms of multiplayer, this is something that I really do want to do, and I have some ideas on how to do it.  But it's a big enough task and would require expansion of game mechanics that it would probably need to be an expansion-pack feature.  The general idea is to make it basically kind of like Bughouse Chess, where technically you are playing two different games (each your own solar system), but you are also able to pass things across.  Though more freely than in bughouse.

Basically you would each be playing your own solar system in single player, but with a network connection between them for as long as you feel like, and the ability to pass some things back and forth across that connection and thus interact and collaborate.  That's an odd sort of multiplayer, so we likely would not even call it that.  Most likely we'd say "ability to connect single player worlds and use one solar system to help another!"  Or something along those lines.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Vyndicu December 05, 2013, 02:12:15 PM
First off I am looking forward to "The Last Federation".

I have been reading up on Last Federation a bit and for some strange reason it remind me lot of distant world's races. To be fair Federation seem to have more robotic races than DW has (DW has just one and you can't play as them sadly).

I assume it is safe to say that with randomization planet conditions that situation can cause a typical utopia race to be warmonger and vice versa. Or even a typical game might see two races, normally like each other, ending up commit to generations of war? Or the entire solar system just in general lack resource to support three space faring races? (No fissionable material and sun is dying kind of thing)

What are some crazy examples that you have come across that show some fun in emergency gameplay?
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Teal_Blue December 05, 2013, 03:25:48 PM
The part about the sun dying sounds pretty cool, i mean... you know, in an abstract and game sort of way only. Really, i mean, that would totally not be cool if it were like for real.  :)
Isn't it funny what is cool and not depending on if its like for real or not?


-Teal
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: madcow December 05, 2013, 04:31:16 PM
I wonder if it's possible after getting somebody to join the federation, if they will ever leave. Or if it's possible to get the federation itself pissed at you and have them going after you. That would be strange and interesting.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Coppermantis December 05, 2013, 06:34:11 PM
I think I remember Chris saying that once someone was in the Federation, they'd never leave. I could be wrong, or it could have changed though.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 December 05, 2013, 08:50:40 PM
I haven't played DW, so can't really comment on similarities there.  But I imagine that both they and we are pulling from similar general tropes in sci-fi overall, honestly, heh.

In terms of how the races behave with one another in one game versus another, yes that absolutely does vary based on situations.  Sometimes the "klingons" cower in terror from the "ewoks," and I always find that hilarious when it does happen.  That said, even then there is a very distinct feel of dealing with klingons versus ewoks when you personally interact with them -- but their attitudes towards you and toward one another can really change the feel of how the overall atmosphere is.  Dealing with a burlust warlord is always very different from dealing with a peltian collective, but dealing with a warmongering versus a meek collective, or an ascendant warlord versus a desperate one are four very different scenarios.

One of the funny/crazy examples of emergent stuff happening lately is the pirates are sometimes setting up kind of a federation of their own, heh.  They form a pirate empire and then get so strong that they suppress all the planetary fleets of the other races, thus enforcing peace through violence (and preventing the actual federation from forming).  That was... unexpected.  It's happening too frequently right now, but it's cool to see that happen sometimes.

There have also been some cases of where a race was super-compatible with a planet with low land area, and they then just absolutely sprinted into space aggressively and started taking over everything incredibly quickly.  Basically a zerg rush, out of the blue, which also was unexpected.

And then there's a whole variety of humorous tales of woe relating to events and so forth and so on, but those are more in the range of the "expected randomness" I suppose you could call it.  It will surprise the players quite often and in fun ways, but it doesn't surprise us as the developers since we coded those to sometimes come up.  But even with those, the combinations of those can lead to some pretty unexpected end results since there can be kind of causal chain reactions.

I'll be doing a much bigger writeup on the whole butterfly effect stuff sometime soon, but right now haven't had time.  But those are a couple of very broad examples. :)

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Teal -- very much agree on what is "cool" when something is real versus just a game, heh.

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In terms of the federation, they can "leave" if they die, which is possible.  Right now that's the only way that they can leave, although at some point likely we'd add some ways they could leave.

Once in the federation, a race can still personally hate your guts, and may wind up sending assassins after you, etc.  They may even kill you (losing you the game) despite being in the federation!  And even if their official government is not sending assassins after you, the race may have a ton of citizen unrest leading to AFA demonstrators and insurgents, which then wind up fighting with you and possibly killing you.

On that note, it is possible to get a race into the federation even if they hate you and you have like the worst relationship with them ever.  But to do that, you have to make sure that their relationship with some other race is really good, and then kind of backdoor them into the federation through a political deal with that other race.  Those sorts of deals can only be brokered by some races, like the Skylaxians.  So if the Skylaxians are dead and the Thoraxians perma-hate you, then you may find yourself in a situation where the only way to win the game is to kill the Thoraxians.  Just as one example.  You haven't lost the game, but you have lost a lot of options by then; you are highly unlikely to be able to remotely kill the Thoraxians yourself, so you need to set about warmongering the other races (in the federation or not) to go kill them.  And then help a bit as you can.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Vyndicu December 06, 2013, 12:54:41 AM
The part about the sun dying sounds pretty cool, i mean... you know, in an abstract and game sort of way only. Really, i mean, that would totally not be cool if it were like for real.  :)
Isn't it funny what is cool and not depending on if its like for real or not?


-Teal

No I meant like a solar system wide resource shortage and it kind of push everyone either into "survival" mode or the peace is very fragile as in only two or three races can afford realistic maintain a standing roving patrol. As for the rest? They just have to figure out how to leverage (salvage from battle or hand me down stuff). Also the pace is obviously very different since there are fewer space faring fleet in the same time frame. Perhaps even more "reavers" out and around so combat is probability much harder with little to no backing from federation.

It was surprising that nobody have even gone past the initial impression to find the gameplay as opposite to "abstracted" dying sun setting. Let me put it in AI war setting with a similar if not identical feeling.

normal/exo-wave 7/7; 20 solar systems; honeycomb map; simple unit type; all minor hostile faction enable on 10; both hybrid type/astro train/cookie monster/both hunter type/etc... all set to 10; Set on epic and smaller cap; perhaps some resource handicap on top of that.

Your opinion may vary widely but it should get you on the right track on what I was thinking of.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 December 06, 2013, 10:15:22 AM
Resource shortages and such vary by the planet here, and the race's compatibility with the planet they start on.  That can create all sorts of envy, etc, and thus aggression.  If ALL of the races landed on planets that they don't have good compatibility with (which is possible), then there would be just super-aggression all over the place.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Cyborg December 07, 2013, 05:52:11 PM
Can you blow up planets?
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Vyndicu December 07, 2013, 08:36:09 PM
Can you blow up planets?

One of the robotic races, the Acutians (these guys are kind of jerks), is able to build a "planet cracker."  They have to have a lot of engineers and a lot of time, plus an uncolonized moon to spare on their planet.  But when they are done, this launches their moon straight at another planet and... well, bye.

I would venture that is indeed a safe bet yes.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Cyborg December 07, 2013, 10:44:18 PM
Can you blow up planets?

One of the robotic races, the Acutians (these guys are kind of jerks), is able to build a "planet cracker."  They have to have a lot of engineers and a lot of time, plus an uncolonized moon to spare on their planet.  But when they are done, this launches their moon straight at another planet and... well, bye.

I would venture that is indeed a safe bet yes.

My favorite race has the planet cracker? Wow.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 December 09, 2013, 10:36:43 AM
Oh yeah. :)

You can't personally blow up planets; your fleet is not that powerful.  However, it is possible for various races to decide to blow up a planet, and you can either try to stop them or let it happen, heh.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: keith.lamothe December 09, 2013, 10:41:38 AM
I wonder if the Acutians have a "The Solar System Is Actually A Giant Pool Table" political faction.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: Kingpin23 December 15, 2013, 06:24:32 PM
Been playing TOME4 recently and the thing that I really like about it that it has a ingame chat so people can
Link items and talk bout what is happening in their game. You can also see how they are progressing in the game and what achievements are earned. Maybe something like this can be implemented in TLF.
Just an idea.
: Re: Preview: Simulations In The Last Federation
: x4000 December 16, 2013, 11:31:28 AM
Potentially at some point, we'll see!