New version .990 (Combat And Diplomacy Exploit Fixes)

[x4000]

Release notes: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Alpha_Release_Notes#Alpha_Version_.990

Restart steam to force a quicker update if you like.

Almost there!  Tomorrow is the big day.   Cool things in this one:

1. Races are better about defending their stuff in the solar map.
2. Dispatches can last longer (makes sense now that you can stop at any time, fine tune control the timing, etc).
3. Improved a number of things balance-wise with diplomatic options being too strong in the player's favor previously (exploits), or just things drifting frustratingly fast in some places.
4. Combat on lower difficulties was exploitable previously if you increased your weapon power, then kited enemies.  Now the enemy ranges are almost always going to be as high as yours if not higher, and the increase/decrease to your firing range when you change power levels on weapons is negligible.
5. After combat, you now get a cool summary of what happened during the battle -- total kills enemy uses, damage and turns taken, and so on.  Gives a much better sense of what actually happened during the battle -- for instance, in a lot of cases your allies are more effective than you might realize, simply because you are not paying attention.  They and some enemy forces take each other out, but the enemy forces were more numerous.  You look over and just see that your allies are dead and there are still enemies, and think the allies were useless.  Etc.  Now you can actually tell what happened, and if they were in fact useless (which is possible, depending on their tech levels versus the enemy tech levels) or just deceptively helpful.

Tomorrow is pretty much just final cleanup pre-1.0, plus the remainder of the achievements.  If anyone has any cleanup things that they think are particularly important, please post them in this thread to draw our attention to them.  I'll also be doing a lot of final playtesting myself tomorrow, and making some more videos of that while I do so; those sorts of things seemed to have helped a lot in the past with AI War, and so I don't want to miss that opportunity.  It's also a good chance to get double-bang from my time buck (so to speak), by both testing and recording at once.

Enjoy!

[chemical_art]

The increase in enemy ranges has certainly made combat harder....but the tactics remain the same.

Now the reason to kite is too out range the enemy, but to ensure that enemy fire is minimized but spreading out enemies based on their speed....in other words kiting is still the most effective tactic.

[Azurian]

Both Normal and Hard are in Yellow Text in Advanced Start. I think Hard should be in Orange Text.

[chemical_art]

I will also add that now with more empirical testing, acutian's build ships at ridiculous speeds. I'll destroy 4 armadas in combat, and in the 1.18 solar months it takes they somehow manage to build 3 more armadas. That doesn't feel right when the year is only 3007

[x4000]

Well... what is the analogy I'm searching for.  A first person shooter, I guess.  How do you play those?  You have guns, the enemy has guns.  Generally you want to try to move laterally and/or take cover, while firing.  I mean, that's pretty much the strategy.  Occasionally you pop out and shotgun or knife someone, but that's rare and also game-specific.  Sometimes you come around a corner and fastest trigger wins.  Fine.  But as a general rule, you know what I mean?  Generally guns are meant to be fired at range, and generally in a SHMUP you are trying to dodge bullets and typically not sit right on top of the bullet emitters (or that dodging fails).

I don't know, I'm certainly open to feedback, but I don't think that inherently having ships firing at one another from range while moving around is an issue.  I feel like the issue was that the player could fire on the enemy long before the enemy could fire back, and that the player could basically exacerbate this by continually staying out of range.  That's not at all like an FPS, and is definitely an exploit.  Now you and the enemy are actually engaging each other from range, which seems to be the idea.  Too close of combat and you run into other problems such as simply having no way to dodge bullets, or ships that come out of the enemy, etc.

Anyway, like I said, I'm definitely open to discussion on it.  I'm just not sure that the word "kiting" is really appropriate when the enemy is able to fire back at you effectively.  It just seems to imply staying out of range to me, which I don't think is a thing anymore?

[chemical_art]

Well... what is the analogy I'm searching for.  A first person shooter, I guess.  How do you play those?  You have guns, the enemy has guns.  Generally you want to try to move laterally and/or take cover, while firing.  I mean, that's pretty much the strategy.  Occasionally you pop out and shotgun or knife someone, but that's rare and also game-specific.  Sometimes you come around a corner and fastest trigger wins.  Fine.  But as a general rule, you know what I mean?  Generally guns are meant to be fired at range, and generally in a SHMUP you are trying to dodge bullets and typically not sit right on top of the bullet emitters (or that dodging fails).

I don't know, I'm certainly open to feedback, but I don't think that inherently having ships firing at one another from range while moving around is an issue.  I feel like the issue was that the player could fire on the enemy long before the enemy could fire back, and that the player could basically exacerbate this by continually staying out of range.  That's not at all like an FPS, and is definitely an exploit.  Now you and the enemy are actually engaging each other from range, which seems to be the idea.  Too close of combat and you run into other problems such as simply having no way to dodge bullets, or ships that come out of the enemy, etc.

Anyway, like I said, I'm definitely open to discussion on it.  I'm just not sure that the word "kiting" is really appropriate when the enemy is able to fire back at you effectively.  It just seems to imply staying out of range to me, which I don't think is a thing anymore?

There are a few differences from a FPS to TLF though. In a FPS, projectiles are mostly instant, and range is not a matter of bullets hitting you, but of balance...but that's a different rabbit hole.

The problem is that the enemy flagships never try to blob. I know why they don't, that is not fun. But the result is they haphazardly pursue the player. The acutians have both very slow and very fast flagships. The tactic of divide and conquer ruins them against a player. I sprint away as fast as I can, and eventually these flagships seperate. I whittle them down as they become isolated, and eventually I win. Increasing enemy range means the part where I sprint madly is more intense, but once the ships seperate, its back to the old tactic of running around avoiding bullets while my guns do their thing. Sure I can't outrange, but I still isolate them using the same tactic that let me previously outrange them, so nothing has changed tacticly, it just takes longer.

As a side note, I tried the first battle again with these range changes. Those fast acutian flagships are a drag. They run circles around the player on normal until you get power systems, and even then you have to devote most of your energy to engines just to setup fire angles. They are simply not fun and too challenging for a first fight.

Side side note: I'm already knee deep in power gaming, sense of confusion gone. This is why I insist on waiting to the last minute to try things!

[Histidine]

A "wade into the melee" tactic being viable would be kinda cool.

It may already be, with things like Spreadshot, Stunner, and Shortwave Virus (superb alliteration there); more suitable abilities would make this even better.

[Azurian]

Black Market sometimes report that it is not spacefaring with 0 seconds left. Save included. This was in observer mode.

[PokerChen]

A "wade into the melee" tactic being viable would be kinda cool.

It may already be, with things like Spreadshot, Stunner, and Shortwave Virus (superb alliteration there); more suitable abilities would make this even better.

Was thinking about that option when piloting a Burlust longship.

[Faulty Logic]

It may already be, with things like Spreadshot, Stunner, and Shortwave Virus (superb alliteration there); more suitable abilities would make this even better.

If Stunner and Shortwave worked all the time.

Maybe if your weapons did more damage based on their range?

[Misery]

Well... what is the analogy I'm searching for.  A first person shooter, I guess.  How do you play those?  You have guns, the enemy has guns.  Generally you want to try to move laterally and/or take cover, while firing.  I mean, that's pretty much the strategy.  Occasionally you pop out and shotgun or knife someone, but that's rare and also game-specific.  Sometimes you come around a corner and fastest trigger wins.  Fine.  But as a general rule, you know what I mean?  Generally guns are meant to be fired at range, and generally in a SHMUP you are trying to dodge bullets and typically not sit right on top of the bullet emitters (or that dodging fails).

I don't know, I'm certainly open to feedback, but I don't think that inherently having ships firing at one another from range while moving around is an issue.  I feel like the issue was that the player could fire on the enemy long before the enemy could fire back, and that the player could basically exacerbate this by continually staying out of range.  That's not at all like an FPS, and is definitely an exploit.  Now you and the enemy are actually engaging each other from range, which seems to be the idea.  Too close of combat and you run into other problems such as simply having no way to dodge bullets, or ships that come out of the enemy, etc.

Anyway, like I said, I'm definitely open to discussion on it.  I'm just not sure that the word "kiting" is really appropriate when the enemy is able to fire back at you effectively.  It just seems to imply staying out of range to me, which I don't think is a thing anymore?

I think it depends on the player to a large extent. Kiting maybe effective, but not for everyone.  Different players are likely to use different strategies.

Me, I'm not the patient sort, and kiting is boring. I tend to sit right next to major enemy ships to blast them with the full might of th spreadshot all at once, which makes things not take as long. Tend to charge at enemy heaps, too.  Even in a full bullet-hell shmup, this is typically what I do much of the time.  And this is all on the highest difficulty. So, such a tactic is completely viable depending on the player. Mostly a matter of preference and overall play style.

One thing though that does tend to lead to kiting is the infinite amount of room for the battlefield, and the i
Simple fact that the enemy cannot possibly keep you surrounded most of the time.  Typically in a free roaming shmup, usually of the dual stick sort, the challenge works because its impossible to reach a situation where the enemy cannot easily surround you and attack form all sides, and dammit if this stupid auto correct does that just one more time, I'll throw this blasted thing out the window.


All things considered though the new updates sound good.  I cannot test them yet though, as I I'm in a hotel, and Windows 8, which my laptop is unfortunately stuck with, seems to be too amazingly stupid to be able to follow the extremely basic steps that typically go into connecting to the hotel's bloody stupid gated wifi. I swear, every time I think that version of Windows has hit rock bottom, somebody throws it a nuclear jackhammer, and down it goes.  Can't stand it one bit.

[Azurian]

We might need to add new categories to RCI and Influence Tiers since ranges can get really high.

Just saw a planet with 16,000 Public Order!
The Boardines are at -3,500 with the Actuians!

RCI
+250: Spectacular
+500: Illustrious
+1000 : Fable
+5,000: Mythical
+10,000: Legendary

-250: Chaos
-500: Pandemonium
-999  : Apocalyptic

Diplomacy
-500:  Nefarious
-1000: Malevolent
-2500: Archenemy

[Histidine]

We might need to add new categories to RCI and Influence Tiers since ranges can get really high.

Just saw a planet with 16,000 Public Order!
The Boardines are at -3,500 with the Actuians!

Maybe RCI and diplomacy changes away from zero should slow down the bigger the absolute value already is (and towards-zero changes should speed up). Negative feedback mechanism, to keep it from running away.

"Lower Normal" and "Upper Normal" are now just "Normal" and "Hard" and "Hard" is now "Harder."

Should have saved it for the sequel. The Last Federation 2: Federate Harder

[jonasan]

the balance changes to the diplomacy side of the game look good. i think they should go a long way to getting the player to get involved in everything the game has to offer rather than exploiting the diplomatic dispatch play style.

i imagine that relations between the races are going to get nicely out of hand now and require more creative use of the available options/missions to pull a federation together... nicely done

[Professor Paul1290]

Here's my take on the combat.

I think the "exploit" problem, as is, has been fixed. The problem was that players could get into a position where the enemy could not retaliate, and now that's been reduced by a lot.

If staying at a distance makes combat too easy, I think that's of the ordinary "change some numbers" sort of balance problem, not something that requires trying to change the nature of combat.

I do not believe the tendency for players to kite or stay at "arm's length" when they fight is a "problem" to be solved. That's just what naturally happens when you have projectile weapons and I do not think the goal should be to eliminate that.
When someone is spraying death and pain in your direction you don't want to stay right next to the source of said death and pain, that's just the way it works.

It's natural for players to want to fight at "arm's length" and instead of trying to fight or subvert that tendency I think the game should be balanced assuming that's how the player is going to fight most of the time. I think it will be easier to balance that way, and it'll result less problems than trying to subvert it.

If you don't want the player to be kiting all the time to keep the enemy at a distance, then maybe instead of relentlessly trying to get into close range all the time the enemy should be fighting at a distance as well. Just have them close until they are within weapons range rather than in your face.
If they can't hit the player well from that distance then have them shoot more, shoot more accurately, give them faster projectiles, or whatever is needed to balance things out.
I think that would work better than trying to come up with schemes to make the player go against what would otherwise be logical behavior.

I don't think the solution should be to discourage distance fighting. If you try to discourage that sort of combat you end up fighting something very inherent to combat as it is, and you're more likely to just create more problems with solutions that conflict with each other.