Author Topic: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)  (Read 2225 times)

Offline x4000

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New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« on: April 07, 2014, 04:01:56 pm »
Release notes: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Alpha_Release_Notes#Alpha_Version_.851

Restart steam to force a quicker update if you like.

The smuggle spacefaring missions are now more balanced.  Way way easier, but still.  I also finally got around to un-slaving your operations ships from your own gun!  And a goodly number of new tutorial-y bits have been added based on excellent feedback from folks in .850.  Please keep that up!  My number one fear with this game is people getting overwhelmed or otherwise frustrated to the point of ragequitting.  If someone just doesn't like the game, that's cool, that's one thing; I don't like every game ever made, either.  But if they should like the game, but the game drives them away, that's a big problem.

Particularly with press.  We're trying to get to the point of doing a press build very late this week, for preview purposes.  We shall see.  It's a fine line between the insanity of showing them something too early and the insanity of having no launch coverage.  Not my favorite spot to be in.

Also, new testers!

Caveats:
1. IF SOMETHING IS NOT CLEAR, that is now officially a Big Problem in the sense that our tutorials are "done pending feedback" (hah -- which means "not really done, but not changing until we hear from you about what is still confusing.").

Enjoy!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 04:55:50 pm by x4000 »
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Offline x4000

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2014, 04:02:09 pm »
New testers today:

YukaTakeuchiFan
Arnos
Rekka
TwelveGaugeSlug
Shrugging Khan
ru_disa
sirboozebum
Entrenched Homeperson
rigphoria
Endymion
darkarchon
deMangler

Twelve folks in this batch.  Release is coming up at the end of next week, and we still have another 37 testers in the queue after this batch.  This batch is abnormally large because I want a dense group of new impressions now that we have tutorials.  If you are on this list (or the stickied list of testers above here) and don't have a PM from me shortly, PM me back.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 04:10:28 pm by x4000 »
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Offline Misery

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2014, 10:14:42 pm »
Ok, some first impressions for this one.

Tutorials.... this is confusing.  It hits the point of "okay, here's your abilities now" and then just.... stops.  There isnt anything after that, yet half the interface is still missing.  There's no messages telling me what to do next.  I tried attacking pirates, I tried doing a dispatch.... nothing.   I'll probably have to restart at this point, honestly, since I cant go forward while missing half the stuff.

Smuggling missions still are an issue.  My main problem with them remains the same.... they're just too tedious to deal with in a "safe" fashion.  Previously, I would use abilities to make clearing away the 20 zillion targets in the way take a more sane amount of time, but.... doing it with JUST weapons takes forever.   There's just too many THINGS, and as long as the various lance turrets exist, it's very risky to get anywhere near those.  Hell, the missile turrets are bad enough;  get too many of those firing at you and you HAVE to change position, which usually means rolling around to the other side of the mess, a process which takes way too long.

Currently, for me at least, these missions involve no tactics:  I save before hand, and then just slam straight into the core of the mess.  I dont even bother firing, just crash right into it.   Oddly this has yet to not work, but it's all luck... if even ONE missile turret is in the way (and I cant tell the things apart whatsoever), it's over in an instant.  I dont have the patience for any other approach, it just takes too long.  I would have to spend WAY too much time maneuvering entirely around the blasted probes, over and over again, for it to work.

New players are going to look at these missions and probably be a bit too daunted by them.... all those turrets! And there is no such thing as a real hole in these defenses.  Some of which are just outright deadly if they manage to get a strong hit on you (like the missile ones).  It's even more daunting if you find out where all of their ranges are.  Looks like a horrible red blob if you look at them all at once.  AND there's zillions of small ships everywhere.  I dont think there IS another type of mission that's more imposing than what these look like, actual difficulty not really mattering here.  And these arent after doing like 5 others or something... these are the only two I did, period.  Typically I do exactly two of these each time, to get a couple of races going, and then I'm tired of them after that.

Not to mention, doing them without the engine/shield/weapons thing ALSO makes it take longer.  I'd prefer to have the ability to up the weapons so I have real range and power, which can make some things take less time, but I cannot do that.

Beyond this, I havent tested yet.  I've started over without the tutorials and done the blasted smuggling, and will resume testing from there.

I did notice two things though to point out:  1, the descriptions on the planet stats, public order and all of them, are much better.  It's alot more clear as to what these do.   And 2, the different resources, THOSE are still confusing as all heck.  I didn't know what they did before, I dont know what they do now, aside from that outposts need some to be built.  I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that they do have more purpose, or they wouldnt be there, but... these need alot more explaining.  They're extremely vague right now, and it makes any actions involving them seem kinda pointless because you have no idea what it will even do.

Oh, and the event listing doesnt happen during the early tutorial stuff.... that bit is confusing.  Doing a dispatch mission it was very clear that SOMETHING was happening, but I couldnt see what any of it was.

Offline Cipherpunk

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2014, 10:21:29 pm »
I feel really dumb to admit it but even after playing the new tutorial I still have not been able to successfully form any kind of federation. Ever.

In my current game, I have favored influence with the Andors, Skylaxians and Peltians. I'm trying to start a Federation from the Peltian world for 100 voting proxies. It says I can't do this because "both the Skylaxians and Andors must be willing to do this". What would make them willing to do this? Do they need more influence with me? Do the three races need to like each other more? The requirements are very vague and it's been a source of frustration for me from the beginning.

Offline doctorfrog

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2014, 11:18:13 pm »
I play this around thirty minutes a night now, fwiw, and I'm far from rage quitting these days. The combat feels good and keeps getting better. I'm swiveling an eyeball increasingly toward the 4X free agent role, and I hope to better understand it with this tutorial.

Offline Misery

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2014, 11:51:38 pm »
I feel really dumb to admit it but even after playing the new tutorial I still have not been able to successfully form any kind of federation. Ever.

In my current game, I have favored influence with the Andors, Skylaxians and Peltians. I'm trying to start a Federation from the Peltian world for 100 voting proxies. It says I can't do this because "both the Skylaxians and Andors must be willing to do this". What would make them willing to do this? Do they need more influence with me? Do the three races need to like each other more? The requirements are very vague and it's been a source of frustration for me from the beginning.

I *think* it's a number of factors;  one of them I'm pretty sure needs to be that they need to like each other enough, which is the bit that makes the most sense.  They probably also need to be in a relatively positive position as far as their own planet goes... like, no crazy negative stats or something.  Other things like wars or bad events probably dont help. Also

That's the logic I'm going off of, anyway.  I'm sure there's a pile of other aspects but I have no idea what they are as of yet.

Offline PokerChen

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 01:29:37 am »
I feel really dumb to admit it but even after playing the new tutorial I still have not been able to successfully form any kind of federation. Ever.

In my current game, I have favored influence with the Andors, Skylaxians and Peltians. I'm trying to start a Federation from the Peltian world for 100 voting proxies. It says I can't do this because "both the Skylaxians and Andors must be willing to do this". What would make them willing to do this? Do they need more influence with me? Do the three races need to like each other more? The requirements are very vague and it's been a source of frustration for me from the beginning.

They need to like each other a lot. I could not form a federation with each of them +100 to me, but neutral to each other - then I started tech trading chains, which is the quickest way to raise their own relationships.

Offline Misery

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2014, 01:39:15 am »
Okay, more impressions after some time with this:


Firstly.... finally alot of the major problems that were driving me crazy about the solar map are gone, so I've properly jumped into it.  The game as a whole is proving to be very engaging, as there's lots to do on the solar map and it gets more complicated than I thought.  Many things (such as moons, resources) are still very cryptic, but it's gotten better about this for some things.  The combat does a good job of breaking up the gameplay and is plenty interesting in it's own right. 

I'll need alot more testing before I can fully get a grasp on what's unbalanced with the solar map, though a few things I've already submitted to Mantis.  A couple of funky bugs as well, such as non-existent outposts.


Combat related, Burlust Warlords have waaaaaaayyyyy too much HP for their hulls;  considering their defense against weapons when attacking the hull, it doesnt need to be THAT high.   Also, these guys are extremely vulnerable to kiting;  it's a very easy and totally risk-free way to defeat them.   Their attack patterns are also too simple;  their weapons for the most part just arent a threat. The battle takes forever, but is very easy.

Also I can get a bazillion voting proxies for the Peltians very quickly.

And I cant figure out what to do about very low populations and birth rates;  I want to give the Boarines a boost in my current game, but their population is very low, the birth rate actually seems to be non-existent (which doesnt make a whole lot of sense, as they never go below 1 million) and it's the main focus of the regent at the moment, but ways to deal with it seem very limited.

Oh, and missiles are the same color for both allies and enemies, that bit is an issue.  They're also a bit too slow-moving to be a threat.


That's about it for major specifics here, but overall the experience is good and I'm quite enjoying both aspects of the game.  For this one I selected Hard difficulty for combat, but I'll be upping that with the next go as it's too easy for me in most cases.  Playing on Normal for the solar map.

Offline PokerChen

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2014, 02:23:01 am »
Aside from echoing Misery's feedback re: burlusts and peltians, the low populations I'm not sure what to do with. If a race starts on an ice dwarf, they're going to remain small for the game AFAIK. Burlusts shouldn't be so hard-gated as to the fact that you have to find the right weapon to expedite their dispatch.

Also bit of feedback on abilities:
- Giga cannon isn't so useful, with lower DPS than most armaments at high weapon power. It's not visually as impressive as the name suggests either.
- Still don't really see the point of anti-swarm lasers, stunners, etc. at lower difficulties. Easier to blast the fluff all out of the sky before they come in range....
- Operation Zero with 60 interceptors? They don't ram enemy flagships. They tear them down with an impressive display of concussive fire. I'm guessing this is the power-level you're looking for? In comparison, 4 snipers aren't so hot. ;)
- Is it intended that new operations fill your slots as you expend them? ;)

Smuggling missions:
- Misery is correct, if you take care to avoid taser turrets then you can blockade-run the formation at max engines. Once the game gives you engine power, this is pretty easy to smuggle tech to everyone.
- Also, I think the intrinsic penalties means that there's a specific sequence of races you can do immediately to get most of the race into space starting from the Thoraxians down, without getting into really negative territory. I suppose this is intended, as you might want to keep the options of getting everyone into the game.

Bug:
- When you first enter the share tech screen, you are still allowed to trade any tech the host race to the Acutians, as they are the default selection. Once you select them as the recipient race, eveything works as intended.
- I'm receiving manufacturing outpost construction news from various races, but I don't see them on the solar map. This is attached in the second save. The Andors have ended one such action, and the Acutians have earlier - I just assumed that the Skylaxians just destroyed the Acutians ones, but this may not be the case. EDIT: I tested by manually constructing an outpost - they appeared fine on the solar map.

- Nano repair bots are available to all races, but require industrial nano robotics that is restricted to the robotic races. Is it possible for me to give the other races this tech without the pre-req, or is this a bug?

One final suggestion:
- Is it possible for players to convince a race of non-peace intervention in another war? E.g. Andors convinced to help defend another race who is badly losing, Thoraxians convinced to help out a race they are friends(!) with, and Burlusts in general. Not necessary to have them all out join the war (although they take that risk), but more of an operation that risks escalation.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 04:54:57 am by zharmad »

Offline Professor Paul1290

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2014, 03:13:08 am »
Perhaps Gravity Drill technology should be introduced?  >D

Offline PokerChen

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2014, 04:00:46 am »
Perhaps Gravity Drill technology should be introduced?  >D
The answer is NOOOOOOOOOOoooooo..... :P

Offline Hyfrydle

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2014, 05:18:44 am »
This version is by far the best yet, really enjoying the combat and solar map aspects of the game. The smuggling missions are now challenging but can be quite quickly completed once a path is cleared to the drop off point. The AI ships both enemies and allies seem to working as intended either helping or hindering the player.

In multi race combat it would be useful to know the number of ships in each fleet so an idea of the tide of battle can be worked out. In large battles it can be difficult to see who is winning :-)

On the solar map I still want to know who is attacking who on the map. I presume if no races are at war then the pirates are attacking would be nice to have the option to help defend planets against pirate attacks.

Regarding tech how does the player get tech is it by stealing and helping research? I'm guessing the player also starts with some random tech based on my recent games.

The slower pacing I think works well and the feeling of everything getting out of control has gone. More info as to why races are attacking each other would be great so the player can make an educated decision who to help at the moment I tend to favour the races I like and it's the same ones each game.

The tutorial works well to introduce things slowly but does seem to stop quite abruptly with very little info on what the player should do next. I keep building my influence with the races I like and then try and get them to like each other with the hope that I can then start the federation.

Also I think it's the Andors but the Federationist party seems to have disappeared. In my previous testing this was a great way to get a race on the side of the federation.

I do feel it may be quite similair on each playthrough as at the moment the races are set in stone and act in smilair ways each time. Perhaps some randomising of their personalities at the start of the game would be useful to add some unpredictability to each game.

Overall I'm starting to really enjoy the game and as more info is provided to the player it should get more engrossing.

Offline Mick

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 05:50:53 am »
Does turning off the tutorial turn off the gating of power management? That might make the smuggling missions less tedious at higher difficulties. Tutorial and high difficulty does not exactly go together anyway.

Offline Hyfrydle

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 07:00:47 am »
Perhaps it would be best to balance the game on normal difficulty then work on other difficulty settings.

Offline Mick

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Re: New version .851 (Better Smuggling, Yet More Tutorials)
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2014, 08:46:53 am »
I played this last night. This was the first version I was able to really start chewing on the solar map stuff without a showstopper being thrown in my way.

I played with the tutorial on to test it. The gating seems really useful for helping new players not be overwhelmed. I'm hoping that playing with it off allows everything to be unlocked though from the start (I haven't tried that yet). Honestly though, I'm probably not the best person to give feedback on this kind of thing. I really don't mind having all the graphs and stuff right up front. I approach games in a more exploratory fashion, and prefer help to be available when I ask for it (say a ? in the corner I can click on). The current style is all like "Hey, you just finished killing a pirate base, WANE ME TO TELL YOU ABOUT GRAPHS?!". The only thing missing is Clippy the Paperclip next to the dialog box. I'm not against the current tutorial style because I'm sure it works for many people, but if anything I think what would be nice is some strong indication that the tutorial is over, so players like me can use that point to say "OK, time to start the game over again with this stuff off."

I started playing the solar map with a general plan of helping out the races that seemed the least buttholish, with t he attitude that I would suppress or destroy the others if they start to become a problem. Tech trading seemed to be a strong way of both improving race's relations with each other, allowing them to collude to surpass the butthole races in tech, while also having them like me in return, so that was my general course of action in the beginning.

I was at one point where I needed to raise influence of one race to 60 to open up more of their options (I don't remember which one, it might have been the boar creatures). A lot of the actions you can do seem very inconsistent to me in terms of influence rewards. Many things don't seem to gain influence at all even though it kinda sounds like they should, and some of them give tiny little +1 rewards which seem hardly worth caring about at all. I ended up researching a tech with them because that seemed to give the biggest bang, and it played well into my whole share tech strategy. It also allowed me to test out the scientist hiring.

There was one point I noticed the Acutions were sitting on a lot of techs. Since I designated them a butthole race, that would not do, so I decided to steal their tech to have more to distribute among the chosen. It turns out by a fortunate turn of events, the Thoraxians were currently hovering around their planet with a bunch of their ships. I didn't have any dealings with the Thoraxians, so they were neutral to me, and provided a nice diversion to make stealing the tech incredibly easy (strategy!!!) I figured since stealing one tech was simple, enough, I might as well steal ALL THE THINGS, and did the mission again. What was kinda funny was that every mission had everything placed pretty much in the same starting spot, Thoraxian ships and all, so I could pretty much do the same exact sequence of moves every time. Kinda made me wonder why I didn't just steal all the tech at once. Maybe these missions would be a bit more interesting if there were multiple science vessels to steal from (say 3-5), and the "correct" one was randomly assigned.