Author Topic: New version .811 now out! (Improved TBS Controls, Solar Map Balance, etc)  (Read 4031 times)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Release notes: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Alpha_Release_Notes#Alpha_Version_.811

Restart steam to force a quicker update if you like.

Well, this is another huge one in terms of playability of the game. 

1. The prior version was really rough because it was such an early prototype -- so to speak -- of the new turn-based combat.  This version is vastly more refined.  It has four firing modes, a bunch of new GUI stuff, and in general goes out of its way to be more clear.  Is it fully enough?  We shall see.  I would still like to make some usability tuning improvements to this to make it so that I can enter actions faster, but I'm not yet sure what to do with that.

2. The solar map has been rebalanced in a ton of ways, and in general a lot of things happen WAY slower on a month/year scale.  Which is good, because you spend a lot of months on dispatch missions.  Also, races are less aggressive in certain circumstances, more in others, etc.  It makes more sense now, and I've fun a game for 7+ hours of simulation time (using the super-fast-forward in ghost mode) and the game didn't end.  Whereas usually someone would take over in the first hour or two before, which was not at all desired.  Things now play out at their appropriate pace, anyhow.

3. The music for the game is now fully complete!  It's about 54 minutes in all.  The last two tracks are battle tracks, bringing that number up to 4.

4. The balance of the combat has been shifted up a ton, as well as the interface, I should mention.  You can't shoot all incoming shots with all your shots anymore, enemies have much longer firing ranges, you move different distances and so on.  You can also use your special abilities more frequently, in general.  Overall this feels more tactical to me -- it's definitely a lot of steps in the right direction -- but I am not sure that I am wholly satisfied on that score yet, either.  But it's the best we've had yet, I think.

Caveats:
1. All of the Operational abilities are still having their ships slaved to your attacks, and I don't intend for that to remain the case.

2. If you are running into specific mission types that are un-fun slow in the new combat model, then please send us saves.  I tested (for instance) dropping off spacefaring tech, and it was a tense 60-second excursion or so.

3. Ideas on how to make the combat yet-more-tactical are always welcome.  Putting a firing cone on all your weapons (or even most of them) would be pretty annoying, because that would really slow down the pacing a lot as you try to get yourself in exact position.  And it leads to rage when your ship doesn't go into exactly the orientation you want, etc.  Overall I want to try to increase the flow here, or keep it constant, rather than reduce it.  But at the same time, give more options that are interesting.  This is the big thing that I am still mulling.  This aspect of the game is in better shape than it's ever been before in my opinion, but I always like more more more, of course. ;)

Quick Advice On Playing Combat:
This is all in the game now!  It should tell you everything you need to know in the tooltips and revised hud and all that.  If you don't see something clearly, please let us know, as I've been working on this in particular the last two days.  That plus the new firing modes, anyway.


Enjoy!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Okay, before I even mention anything else:

The speed at which actions "play" between turns in the combat is too high.  For some things, it's near impossible to even see them move (like the pods).   This sort of speed works better when there's a constant momentum to it.... as in, not turn-based.... but the sudden jolt from "making decisions" to "action" makes this alot more jarring than it would be.

There should still be a slider for this overall.   I dont think it's likely to be THAT big of a deal on lower difficulties, but playing on Misery I prefer to be able to keep track of everything and make sure I understand which direction all things are moving in.  Hard to do that with that sudden jolting.

The controls are alot better.

More feedback later, I only just loaded this up now.


Next is to find out if the Andors will elect anyone yet. 


EDIT:  Oh, one other thing related to control.   The way that ships turn around is a bit of an issue.  If I go to do a U-turn, I have no idea which direction my ship will actually perform the turn in, which can lead to smacking into crap you'd otherwise avoid.

EDIT 2:  Orrr.... it's not going bonkers with the speed now?  What?  Was that a glitch, or....?

The slider though is still likely a good idea.

EDIT 3:  Ok, some abilities, like the gravity missile, it's hard to even see when they're working.   I keep thinking it's glitching because I never see it happen.    There needs to be something more to these, visually.

EDIT 4:  Ok, this is the biggest problem right now:  I've mentioned this before, but bullet sprites are *way* too small.   Alot of the time currently, I literally cannot see many of them.... at all.  I have to zoom in *very* close before they become apparent, otherwise they look like random pixels that are part of the background.  This'll lead to great frustration as well as an assumption that the game is "broken" because players are dying for reasons they cannot see.

It's also a recipe for major eye strain.   At the very least there should be an option to simply have the game draw the sprites larger for those that are having trouble spotting them.

Another issue is bullet color VS background color, but..... I dunno what can be done about that one.


EDIT 5: Ok, I kept meaning to bring this one up, time to do so before I forget:  Enemy bullets, there needs to be a speed limit imposed on these.  Stuff like the Claymore's quick shots.... these dont work at all under a turn-based mechanic.  Their speed and pattern is still based on the idea that the player can react, but that's impossible here.  As it is, many shot types literally appear, clear the length of the screen, and disappear within the same active turn.   Definitely a bad thing. 

EDIT 6:  Oh geez, that looping movement gets REALLY bad with Afterburner.  It's almost too risky to use at all.

EDIT 7:  Hmmm, the more I'm messing with this, the more I think the "looping" turn should just be removed outright.  It made sense when this was action-based;  it's just ultra-annoying in the turn-based version.   It can also utterly break some situations;  certain "smuggle spacefaring tech" missions can be literally unbeatable because of this, for instance, because you just cant stop your ship from wobbling stupidly in the wrong direction when precise movement is required.

EDIT 8:  My allies!  They DO STUFF now!  "Major" battles with multiple ships on each side are alot more interesting now.  I dont have to kill EVERYTHING, I just need to tip the balance enough without getting wrecked.  They go by quickly though.  I wonder if damage VS player and damage VS NPC should be seperate for NPC bullet types?  Particularly as these guys cant dodge or anything, so constant streams of those little green bullets that arent too bad for the player will wreck any flagship.  Stuff like that.   Need to mess with it more.

EDIT 9: And the last bit for now, all missions with constellations controlled by the enemy are totally broken.  Unbeatable in most cases.  The player *always* starts right in front of them.... usually right in front of like 5 of them.... and in many cases, this leads to instant death.  The player should always start nowhere near any constellations/turrets controlled by enemies.




In an overall sense, the combat is pretty fun right now, barring some obnoxious details and a few major balance problems.    The "super-fast bullets" are probably the biggest issue right now, as combat balance and such goes.  Oh, and gravity lances are broken and dont render correctly, I think I put that in Mantis already.   Having abilities be more necessary makes things that much more interesting, BUT, alot of abilities are still very unbalanced.  Many are outright useless (like the virus one) or just kinda weak.


didn't mess with the solar map much yet, as the issues with combat kept getting in the way too heavily.


One thing I DID notice though:  Some "major" events are happening IMMEDIATELY.  Like, the sorts that really wreck things, happening waaaayyyyyyy before you can do anything at all to change them.  I had one start where the Peltians were hit with "Splinter attacks" about 3 minutes in (if that), and.... yeah, there was no stopping this, it wrecked them.   Another time, the Evucks decided, 2 minutes in, that they were going to explode and take out half of the solar system, because.... because Evucks, apparently they're jerks that way.


I'll give more feedback about the solar map stuff later tonight, I'll focus on that more.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 08:33:58 pm by Misery »

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
EDIT 9: And the last bit for now, all missions with constellations controlled by the enemy are totally broken.  Unbeatable in most cases.  The player *always* starts right in front of them.... usually right in front of like 5 of them.... and in many cases, this leads to instant death.  The player should always start nowhere near any constellations/turrets controlled by enemies.

This could just be a difficulty thing.  In N/N, with the energy blaster, I can make a pass and take out 4/5 turrets.  After that I can bug out and ditch any chasing missiles.  Once you have the hole, they all go down quickly.

Also, now you have an excuse to make a new post ;)  That one was becoming, somewhat of a monster  8)
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
EDIT 9: And the last bit for now, all missions with constellations controlled by the enemy are totally broken.  Unbeatable in most cases.  The player *always* starts right in front of them.... usually right in front of like 5 of them.... and in many cases, this leads to instant death.  The player should always start nowhere near any constellations/turrets controlled by enemies.

This could just be a difficulty thing.  In N/N, with the energy blaster, I can make a pass and take out 4/5 turrets.  After that I can bug out and ditch any chasing missiles.  Once you have the hole, they all go down quickly.

Also, now you have an excuse to make a new post ;)  That one was becoming, somewhat of a monster  8)


It somewhat depends on the turrets involved.   If there's even one of those gravity lance types pointing at you, you're probably dead.

It's not that I keep spawning somewhat near the things, which is enough of a problem.... the game keeps spawning me at point-blank range, as in, nearly touching them.  No amount of dodging works here.   

This is all on Misery of course.  Damage is very high from most attacks.  And yeah, I notice that the turrets do have oddly low HP.   Though that's balanced by the really extreme range some of them have.  Still, they seem like they should have at least a little more HP.


On the plus side, they add alot to a battle when the spawner isnt being a total jerk.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
because Evucks, apparently they're jerks that way.
Absolutely!  A race of intensely passive-aggressive telepaths is at least as bad as it sounds.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline mrhanman

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
I had one start where the Peltians were hit with "Splinter attacks" about 3 minutes in (if that), and.... yeah, there was no stopping this, it wrecked them.

My Skylaxians had a splinter attack within the first few minutes of me making them spacefaring, but I was able to gain influence by helping them put it down.  Where your Peltians spacefaring yet?

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
It somewhat depends on the turrets involved.   If there's even one of those gravity lance types pointing at you, you're probably dead.

It's not that I keep spawning somewhat near the things, which is enough of a problem.... the game keeps spawning me at point-blank range, as in, nearly touching them.  No amount of dodging works here.   

This is all on Misery of course.  Damage is very high from most attacks.  And yeah, I notice that the turrets do have oddly low HP.   Though that's balanced by the really extreme range some of them have.  Still, they seem like they should have at least a little more HP.


On the plus side, they add alot to a battle when the spawner isnt being a total jerk.

Initial positioning needs some tweaking in the missions. sure.  I haven't experienced what you describe, but I have seen some deployments that didn't make sense based on the mission type.  Have you tried the Energy Blaster?  It has a longer range and is pretty effective against turrets. 

/jokingly said  How can you complain about damage when you play on a difficulty you pretty much asked for, lol. 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline mrhanman

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
Is there a way to re-target  the ship from last turn quickly?  Do you have to click on the ship each time?  If so, it would be nice to be able to quickly auto-retarget with a rightclick, or something.

Along the same lines, when doing the space faring tech drop offs, after each move I had to target one of the sentinels.  I was afraid I would accidentaly shoot one of them.  Is there a way to target nothing at all?

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Is there a way to re-target  the ship from last turn quickly?  Do you have to click on the ship each time?  If so, it would be nice to be able to quickly auto-retarget with a rightclick, or something.
I believe hitting "S" hits the same target in the next round.

Quote
Along the same lines, when doing the space faring tech drop offs, after each move I had to target one of the sentinels.  I was afraid I would accidentaly shoot one of them.  Is there a way to target nothing at all?
Hit "Q" twice in the "aiming" phase.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
It somewhat depends on the turrets involved.   If there's even one of those gravity lance types pointing at you, you're probably dead.

It's not that I keep spawning somewhat near the things, which is enough of a problem.... the game keeps spawning me at point-blank range, as in, nearly touching them.  No amount of dodging works here.   

This is all on Misery of course.  Damage is very high from most attacks.  And yeah, I notice that the turrets do have oddly low HP.   Though that's balanced by the really extreme range some of them have.  Still, they seem like they should have at least a little more HP.


On the plus side, they add alot to a battle when the spawner isnt being a total jerk.

Initial positioning needs some tweaking in the missions. sure.  I haven't experienced what you describe, but I have seen some deployments that didn't make sense based on the mission type.  Have you tried the Energy Blaster?  It has a longer range and is pretty effective against turrets. 

/jokingly said  How can you complain about damage when you play on a difficulty you pretty much asked for, lol.


Nah, aint complaining about damage, mostly mentioned to illustrate how quickly you can die in that situation.  On lower difficulties you can tank a few hits and get out of immediate range, but it doesnt work on that one. 

As for the energy gun, it can only really target one thing at a time.... and it's common to be in such a position that multiple turrets have an easy shot at you.  Pops the things quickly but it cant stop them all from firing.  Particularly with the extreme range some have.... simply stopping the ones right in front of you only helps so much when there's another ring offscreen also launching constant stuff at you.



On another note, is it just me, or does the angle type shot not do anything?  Doesnt seem to fire.

EDIT:  Also, stuff is still happening much too fast.

I did one of the lower cost dispatch missions.... 60 months, I think it was.... and again, the map exploded with events.  WAY too many technologies were researched (seriously, there's zero point in doing dispatch missions related to this;  they take absolutely forever in many cases, MUCH longer than it takes the races to just develop stuff on their own), many battles happened (and I do mean "many"), some wars occurred, the Evucks got completely removed after surrendering to the Peltians (and also after nearly exploding themselves again), yet more techs happened, many buildings built....


Andors still totally broken.  Cant be interacted with since they never elect anyone.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 12:45:32 am by Misery »

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Nah, aint complaining about damage, mostly mentioned to illustrate how quickly you can die in that situation.  On lower difficulties you can tank a few hits and get out of immediate range, but it doesnt work on that one. 

As for the energy gun, it can only really target one thing at a time.... and it's common to be in such a position that multiple turrets have an easy shot at you.  Pops the things quickly but it cant stop them all from firing.  Particularly with the extreme range some have.... simply stopping the ones right in front of you only helps so much when there's another ring offscreen also launching constant stuff at you.

On another note, is it just me, or does the angle type shot not do anything?  Doesnt seem to fire.

Gotcha.  I haven't played on anything beyond normal. 
With the constellations though, isn't it supposed to be like finding the hole in the coverage?  I've come up on tight formations, and the only entry is on a narrow line between turrets.  Could the tightening of formations stand to be loosened up a bit? 
On the EB.. I target 4 or 5 turrets that I'll be flying close to.  Poking the first hole or finding the crack in the armor is usually all it takes.  Normal doesn't have the extreme ranges you are describing, so I dunno what to tell ya there?? 

Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Nah, aint complaining about damage, mostly mentioned to illustrate how quickly you can die in that situation.  On lower difficulties you can tank a few hits and get out of immediate range, but it doesnt work on that one. 

As for the energy gun, it can only really target one thing at a time.... and it's common to be in such a position that multiple turrets have an easy shot at you.  Pops the things quickly but it cant stop them all from firing.  Particularly with the extreme range some have.... simply stopping the ones right in front of you only helps so much when there's another ring offscreen also launching constant stuff at you.

On another note, is it just me, or does the angle type shot not do anything?  Doesnt seem to fire.

Gotcha.  I haven't played on anything beyond normal. 
With the constellations though, isn't it supposed to be like finding the hole in the coverage?  I've come up on tight formations, and the only entry is on a narrow line between turrets.  Could the tightening of formations stand to be loosened up a bit? 
On the EB.. I target 4 or 5 turrets that I'll be flying close to.  Poking the first hole or finding the crack in the armor is usually all it takes.  Normal doesn't have the extreme ranges you are describing, so I dunno what to tell ya there??

Yeah, the idea is about finding a good point to break through.... but that just doesnt work when the game starts you directly in front of a gravity turret while you get simultaneously sniped and bombarded with missiles (which do *alot* of damage at this difficulty).  The proper idea would be that you approach these formations from a distance, not start out within the group, which doesnt actually make any sense from a logical standpoint.  In addition, it's rarely JUST the turrets.  Chances are there's flagships nearby blasting at you and creating ships as well.



On another note, I'm finding the solar map nearly unplayable still.   Lowering the speed of progression did absolutely nothing to make dispatch missions viable... the vast majority of them are totally game-breaking and will destroy every single strategy you were in the process of implementing, by creating total chaos on the map as a whole.   I cant test this part of the game any further as most important options are completely unusable because of this, so my progression is effectively halted.  I'll wait for updates before testing any further.




Offline Professor Paul1290

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
I think the "attitude" screen (the one you get when you click on a race icon in the "relations" screen) is the one in most need of some streamlining. It's pretty important when it comes to figuring out what you need to do to affect a race's attitude towards another one, but it's a bit awkward to access and use right now compared to the other stuff.

Perhaps it should be split in half so it shows the relationship both ways, and if possible be accessible by clicking on the lines between races in the "relations" screen.

On the subject of a lot of stuff happening during dispatch missions, I think some of the dispatch missions could perhaps be shortened somewhat.
I think the situation changing significantly during a longer dispatch makes sense. Improving how the player can monitor the situation while the dispatch is running would probably help make sense out of the chaos better. Maybe we should have the option of running through time during dispatch a little bit slower and be able to switch between the event log view and solar map view during that time as well.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 02:44:11 am by Professor Paul1290 »

Offline Teal_Blue

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
why have the dispatch missions cost anything at all? Was it that they would be 'farmed' for BP if not? It seems a simple log, that says you have already done this mission, it is not available for xx would be simpler and avoid the whole time is passing too much problem.

perhaps that would work?
-Teal


Offline Hyfrydle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Maybe if a major event is about to occur an option to leave the despatch mission should become available. I found reading all the info that happens during a despatch mission very difficult as the text scrolls so quickly.