Author Topic: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)  (Read 2605 times)

Offline x4000

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New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« on: March 18, 2014, 10:26:39 pm »
Release notes: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Alpha_Release_Notes#Alpha_Version_.808

Restart steam to force a quicker update if you like.

For the most part, I'll let the release notes speak for themselves.  There are a lot of important things in there, and my simulations of the solar map are behaving much more like I want them to, now.  A few notes, though:

1. These are only the first two out of the new friendly actions and such that will be available to you.  "Dispatch" missions are coming very soon (the coding is in progress on those, so it's just a matter of how long that takes), and those really are an exciting new part of the game as far as I'm concerned.

2. I know that there is a discussion raging in the .806 thread about the combat stuff, and I've avoided looking in there today so that I could focus on the shorter-term stuff.  The combat things are still marinating in the back of my mind, and I'm glad you guys are discussing it, and I will read that discussion later in the week once I've had more time to mull things.  I have had some interesting thoughts in that area today, but I'm not quite ready to share yet.

Also, we will be adding another 7 weapons (all just upgrades to the existing ones, don't get too excited) and 38 abilities to the game within the next 1.5 weeks, along with upgraded versions of the AI ships.  I don't want to get too crazy with doing unique ships out the wazoo, or it becomes impossible to learn.  But having upgraded versions with special abilities that start appearing more as you get into the game, and you having upgraded weapons and abilities to deal with those, is I think important.

Anyway, things are coming along well, but there's just a lot going on right now and I'm having to laser focus on kind of one thing at a time.  If you've said something to me and I haven't responded, please don't take it personally.
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2014, 10:32:19 pm »
Maybe when ever it looks like its a good time, you could show off some more solar map side of things in a vid?
Just a thought.

Offline Misery

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 10:52:52 pm »
Ahhhh, you changed the thing with the resources!

That had been bugging me.  Hadnt made much sense.  Particularly when one of the races suddenly decided "Hey, we want gold, here's a bounty for it! What? How can you find some? Heck if we know, we just assume there must be some somewhere..."

Offline dersquatch

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 11:08:31 pm »
Hah, the spacefaring RNG really was broken. I chalked it up to small sample size and never really thought about it more. I can start with people other than the Burlusts and Thoraxians now!   :D

Other than that, I'm liking the general clean-up and changes. Policies are a lot clearer, and the inventory screen is actually helpful now. I still think Operational Abilities need to be fixed up a bit, as they're not exactly useful most of the time, but that can probably wait 'til the solar stuff is better. All in all, great job!

Offline Histidine

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 11:23:39 pm »
Hmm, is the tech tree actually implemented yet?

Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2014, 01:53:22 am »
Don't know if the tech tree is implemented yet. I had a thought on the text-step combat model though. I have been watching a FreeOrion playthrough and of course it is single stepped in the combat, just comparing numbers for the player and for the opponent and going straight to win or lose. But it made me think...

That if Chris stepped the decisions (as he mentioned) then the cumulative dodge, or hit or miss steps, and the cumulative hull strength, or the shield strength, or the guns that were selected would result in a unique outcome for these particular ships in this particular engagement.

What it would also mean, at least it seems to me, is that the upgrade on the ships would indeed be useful and factored into the equation of the battle.

(someone had mentioned that the ship upgrades would be useless, but i believe that is a wrong assumption.)

With higher levels of weapons rating, and higher levels of hull strength or shield power giving a minus on the incoming strike power of the opponent weapons. In addition, if there were dodge, hit, or miss on the opponent side, then each battle is different and the opponent has just as much chance of winning or losing as the player does. When all of this is factored, it leads to a multi-step process that is interesting and unique and detailed on both sides, but does not involve actual visible combat, and ends in a result that is then handed back to the solar map side with attendant rewards, or losses, or free damage fix for the fleet, or requiring the player to purchase a fleet damage fix from the black market. What ever is appropriate.  :)

Now the actual steps and the number of steps it seems to me, is something that would have to be worked out. If we have a combat between two ships, or our player ship and several others, then combat may proceed, at least in the text stepped version in a more turn-based manner, with a menu of choices of actions coming up for the player and the attackers, presenting us with choices to dodge, shoot, move right, left, forward, or back, each action with a random, or decided percentage of success. Then of course presenting the same menu of choices to the attacker. Continuing on a revolving basis, until all the opponents and the player have made a choice. The process would then rinse and repeat. And with each 'step' or turn, we could change our decision of whether to shoot, or  to dodge, or  to advance, or pull back. This of course would lead to a very detailed and/or drawn out encounter. Which depending on the player, could be something they enjoy, or want to throw up their arms and scream about!  :)

If that is the case, then the number of steps could be artificially lowered, say i determine the base state of my ship, or ships with a known value for weapons and their strength, with my hull armor value and my shield strength. And that becomes step 1. Then the two ships come into battle, and perhaps the steps only now involve several (1, 2, 3, or 4?) dodges and strikes which are determined immediately as successful, or not. And that could be determined as step 2. Which then determines a result from that encounter and drops me to a result screen, as step 3, and the last step in the shortened encounter model. This shortened version is not as detailed, and perhaps not as visceral for the player (I personally would like something drawn out like the first example, but of course not everyone will.) But for those that are not inclined, the shortened version may offer enough interactivity on the player side for them to feel, yes, they have contributed input into the battle and therefor made it something other than just the RNG making decisions that they were not a part of. The shortened version could also be used by those that still want a fairly quick pace to their game, even while using the text-stepped combat instead of the tactical action combat in place now. Anyway, that is my opinion of it.

Or of course, if there were time, we could have both, and have the player decide which they want when the combat screen choices screen comes up.  :)  Haha, just my plug for this idea!  :)

So, detailed step by step, or a shortened and quicker step process may be preferable to a large strategic audience that would prefer the strategic combat vs. the more hands on tactical and of course visible action combat.

Anyway, this is probably a simplistic view of something Chris and company have already figured out, but i thought i would throw my idea out and see if it was worth thinking about. 

Thanks for listening,
-Teal

« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 02:30:15 am by Teal_Blue »

Offline Misery

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 06:32:45 am »
Hm, seems like mostly good changes today.  A few rather funky bugs getting in the way though, already submitted those.


BP is still very hard to get though.  The spy probe and such are useful, though limited.  I did notice that the spy probe mission itself was kind of pointless.... it contained JUST the probe, and nothing else.

Other than that though, getting BP currently is very grindy and seems to mostly consist of shooting down pirate Ravens.  Those things are a bit too weak to energy shots, by the way. 

All in all though aside from the BP thing the solar map changes sound pretty good, though it's hard to test much of them with that issue in place.

I do notice that racial actions are far more varied now.... they're even putting outposts in place for once.   And now I see how to get one of my own.... naturally then, only the ones that I DONT want to steal from are the ones putting the outposts out now.

Offline Billick

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2014, 10:33:21 am »
I played with the new version for about an hour last night.  Things are a lot better explained on the solar system map, but I still think more is needed.  I still don't know how to start a federation.  My best guess is that I need to get at least 2 factions to high influence.  I only have a vague idea what the different planet stats (environment, economy, etc) do.  I tried a few different mission types.  The debris seems to be a lot more manageable now.  I'm not sure if you changed anything besides allowing the player to clear some of the debris with the gravity beam, but it seems a lot better. 

There seems to be a huge variance in the length and difficulty of the different mission types.  Maybe this is intentional to some degree, but it seems a little extreme.  Like misery pointed out, the spy probe mission is pretty trivial.  The smuggling spacefaring tech mission seems pretty trivial as well. 

I tried a dueling warlord mission.  Whoa these guys have a lot of health! I spent several minutes whittling his shields down, and then he had a hull strength of over 1 million.   I ended up just giving up and withdrawing.  Maybe this becomes easier when you get better weapons?

I tried an attack base outer defenses mission, and ran into this

Offline x4000

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2014, 10:57:17 am »
Maybe when ever it looks like its a good time, you could show off some more solar map side of things in a vid?
Just a thought.

Oh yes, there are more videos to come!

Ahhhh, you changed the thing with the resources!

That had been bugging me.  Hadnt made much sense.  Particularly when one of the races suddenly decided "Hey, we want gold, here's a bounty for it! What? How can you find some? Heck if we know, we just assume there must be some somewhere..."

Yep, that was kind of a holdover from an older version of the game, where the main point of resources simply revolved around trade.  We went through several resource models, but didn't want to run into the bottlenecking problem with AI and resources.  This new model creates a secondary economy that doesn't interfere with the main budgeting process, which avoids key bottlenecking issues while providing more flexibility as well.  I'm pretty excited about how that's shifted things.

Hah, the spacefaring RNG really was broken. I chalked it up to small sample size and never really thought about it more. I can start with people other than the Burlusts and Thoraxians now!   :D

Other than that, I'm liking the general clean-up and changes. Policies are a lot clearer, and the inventory screen is actually helpful now. I still think Operational Abilities need to be fixed up a bit, as they're not exactly useful most of the time, but that can probably wait 'til the solar stuff is better. All in all, great job!

Awesome, thanks!  And yep, there are both a ton more operation abilities coming, and improvements will be made to the existing ones. :)

Hmm, is the tech tree actually implemented yet?

Oh yes, has been since forever basically.  And is working just fine, in my testing.

I played with the new version for about an hour last night.  Things are a lot better explained on the solar system map, but I still think more is needed.  I still don't know how to start a federation.  My best guess is that I need to get at least 2 factions to high influence.  I only have a vague idea what the different planet stats (environment, economy, etc) do.

There's still lots to come there, it's a process, heh.

There seems to be a huge variance in the length and difficulty of the different mission types.  Maybe this is intentional to some degree, but it seems a little extreme.  Like misery pointed out, the spy probe mission is pretty trivial.  The smuggling spacefaring tech mission seems pretty trivial as well.

This is 100% intended in terms of the extreme variance.  Some being absolutely trivial isn't really quite intended, but ones that can be completed in 1 minute or less definitely are, while some take more like 10 minutes, etc.  Tiny skirmishes versus big battles, etc.
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Offline x4000

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 10:59:17 am »
That if Chris stepped the decisions (as he mentioned) then the cumulative dodge, or hit or miss steps, and the cumulative hull strength, or the shield strength, or the guns that were selected would result in a unique outcome for these particular ships in this particular engagement.

What it would also mean, at least it seems to me, is that the upgrade on the ships would indeed be useful and factored into the equation of the battle.

(someone had mentioned that the ship upgrades would be useless, but i believe that is a wrong assumption.)

This is really interesting!  I will mull on this, thanks for writing. :)
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 11:03:57 am »
Thank you for listening. I appreciate it. Hope it is workable. :)  Take care.


Offline x4000

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2014, 11:08:47 am »
Thanks to you as well!
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Offline Billick

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2014, 01:39:08 pm »

I played with the new version for about an hour last night.  Things are a lot better explained on the solar system map, but I still think more is needed.  I still don't know how to start a federation.  My best guess is that I need to get at least 2 factions to high influence.  I only have a vague idea what the different planet stats (environment, economy, etc) do.

There's still lots to come there, it's a process, heh.

Yep, just trying to help identify where things are still confusing :)



There seems to be a huge variance in the length and difficulty of the different mission types.  Maybe this is intentional to some degree, but it seems a little extreme.  Like misery pointed out, the spy probe mission is pretty trivial.  The smuggling spacefaring tech mission seems pretty trivial as well.

This is 100% intended in terms of the extreme variance.  Some being absolutely trivial isn't really quite intended, but ones that can be completed in 1 minute or less definitely are, while some take more like 10 minutes, etc.  Tiny skirmishes versus big battles, etc.

I think it's more of a balance issue than a time issue. 

Offline PokerChen

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2014, 04:05:04 pm »
The energy bonus is a little bit extreme indeed - they have multipliers against both shields and both a number of civilian/structure/pirate craft. It's useful to down the shields in a Burlust duel, but getting it and not getting it makes 4x difference in the time you take to finish pirate missions.

On the opposite end of the scale, the armor piercing weapon seems very hard to hit with, even though you're aiming generally in the right direction. I'm pretty certain that the bulllets are travelling so fast that they don't register impacts.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 04:32:35 pm by zharmad »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: New version .808 now out! (Lots of solar map stuff)
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2014, 04:41:58 pm »
On the opposite end of the scale, the armor piercing weapon seems very hard to hit with, even though you're aiming generally in the right direction. I'm pretty certain that the bulllets are travelling so fast that they don't register impacts.
Yea, I get that with spreadshot in some cases (I think based on which flagship I pick, as I think some of them have different multipliers to shot speed).

We probably need to have a ceiling on shot speed, as it's also kind of visually underwhelming to see a wave of spreadshot draw for about 5 frames (and very faintly, due to the speed the frames are going by).
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