My TLF flowchart

[GC13]

So I was just working on a flowchart for TLF, mapping out for myself how you win a game of TLF. I know I simplified a bit, but near as I can tell it's accurate, barring some embarrassing oversight on my part.

What's everyone else think? Looking at this, now more then ever I want there to be a lot more options for affecting attitude between the races. And wars have so little involved in actually fighting them; something really needs to be done to turn wars into something where an intermediate success can be achieved. My ideas? Fortifying moons, and ships having range requirements that require intermediate stops in military outposts the race can dot through the asteroid belt.

[lifehole]

So I was just working on a flowchart for TLF, mapping out for myself how you win a game of TLF. I know I simplified a bit, but near as I can tell it's accurate, barring some embarrassing oversight on my part.

What's everyone else think? Looking at this, now more then ever I want there to be a lot more options for affecting attitude between the races. And wars have so little involved in actually fighting them; something really needs to be done to turn wars into something where an intermediate success can be achieved. My ideas? Fortifying moons, and ships having range requirements that require intermediate stops in military outposts the race can dot through the asteroid belt.

Yeah that flowchart is basically all there is to the game right now unfortunately, even if there is a couple steps missing (e.g disseminating tech to federation races/stealing tech/selling slaves.)  Also dispatch missions shouldn't even be in there, basically construction, researching, and maybe a bit of armada building is all that is needed.

It's really unfortunate that it's so simple to win, though I was never able to get the burlusts/thoraxians in I just imagine it's as simple as waiting longer while trade routes/attitude buildings do their work, all the while grinding AFA for the crapload of credits it takes. It sucks, as there is a big possibility for a lot of depth and complexity.

[chemical_art]

So I was just working on a flowchart for TLF, mapping out for myself how you win a game of TLF. I know I simplified a bit, but near as I can tell it's accurate, barring some embarrassing oversight on my part.

What's everyone else think? Looking at this, now more then ever I want there to be a lot more options for affecting attitude between the races. And wars have so little involved in actually fighting them; something really needs to be done to turn wars into something where an intermediate success can be achieved. My ideas? Fortifying moons, and ships having range requirements that require intermediate stops in military outposts the race can dot through the asteroid belt.

I like it. I appreciate the "destroy" non-aligned races part. Unless you are aiming the achievement, it is often much better to simply remove that one stubborn race outright so your federation remains strong. Your goal is A federation, not how it turns out. It is OK to make enemies...just make sure you come out on top.

[Misery]

There does need to be a bit more to dealing with race relations, I agree.

Sort of agree with the war bit too, there's really only so many ways that the player can affect those.

[MaskityMask]

It does depend on what races you are trying to create federation with though.

I mean, if you REALLY want to create "strong federation" with bad guy races, you have to make sure they go to war with good/neutral races, but make sure they don't win before you can form federation since otherwies they will form solar axis pact. But if you create federation with races that are much easier then its pretty straightforward.

[GC13]

Alright. I added in "Improve Relations With Other Race", because even though it's minor, trade routes and attitude buildings looked so lonely with no other friends to talk to. I'm still not wanting to add Damage Relations With Other Race to Incite War though, as conspiracies are just so much more... Expedient.

So based on this chart, and its assumed level of comprehensiveness, is it safe to say that it's player interaction in both warfare and inter-racial relations where the most effort needs to be focused for new content?

[topper]

Hey GC13,

This looks pretty nice, and it seems like the guides you are putting together on the Steam forum are helpful too.

Would you be interested in getting some of this on the Arcen wiki? I PM'ed Chris and asked for wiki access, perhaps you could get access as well?

[Excession]

So I was just working on a flowchart for TLF, mapping out for myself how you win a game of TLF. I know I simplified a bit, but near as I can tell it's accurate, barring some embarrassing oversight on my part.

What's everyone else think? Looking at this, now more then ever I want there to be a lot more options for affecting attitude between the races. And wars have so little involved in actually fighting them; something really needs to be done to turn wars into something where an intermediate success can be achieved. My ideas? Fortifying moons, and ships having range requirements that require intermediate stops in military outposts the race can dot through the asteroid belt.

Yeah that flowchart is basically all there is to the game right now unfortunately, even if there is a couple steps missing (e.g disseminating tech to federation races/stealing tech/selling slaves.)  Also dispatch missions shouldn't even be in there, basically construction, researching, and maybe a bit of armada building is all that is needed.

It's really unfortunate that it's so simple to win, though I was never able to get the burlusts/thoraxians in I just imagine it's as simple as waiting longer while trade routes/attitude buildings do their work, all the while grinding AFA for the crapload of credits it takes. It sucks, as there is a big possibility for a lot of depth and complexity.

Well the game having three phases - Form Federation/Stabilise and Grow Federation/Mop Up isn't an issue as such.

It's just you want Phases 1+2 to be as interesting and to play out in as many different ways as possible and don't want phase 3 (mop up) to just turn into a grind - really the final phase needs to involve a real risk of defeat/collapse - once it doesn't then you have effectively won.

[Drak]

Forgot "Find Ways to Make Credits" I think it pretty much just goes everywhere in the flowchart, but serriously seems to be where I spend the most significant efforts any more.

[GC13]

Eh, I don't really have to worry about money. The only things I need to spend on are ceasefires and getting people into the Federation, and once you've founded the Federation you can farm the AFA for easy credit. I don't think they add anything strategically, so I don't feel like the chart is really missing anything by not having them. Of course, without them the game would have so little money you couldn't perform even the most basic task: growing the Federation. >.>

[MaskityMask]

Honestly though, I'm confused at what you are talking about basic winning strategy being too simple? How could it not be simple when you put it in flowchart?

I mean, ultimately all strategy games are won rather simply if you put it like that. Most rts are ultimately about "Overwhelm the other player with more troops if you can" or at least they are when it comes to AI <_<

Plus, I think these type of games are more about self challenge anyway. I mean, it is kinda like roguelikes in sense that permadeath is an option and each game has amount of randomness to it. After you beat a roguelike, you want to play it again, but maybe this time you would try harder class or try to use only certain items or such. In case of this game I'm trying to get each of different anti federation alliances at least once and beat them all, I'm trying to form federation with all possible combinations, I'm trying to get 8 races in federation and other achievements as well.

Heck, trying to get only one race alive achievement seems to be interesting since it means you have to get rid of your other federation races... That would go against normal style of winning the game.

[GC13]

Well, the reason it's not just simple because it's in a flowchart is because the flowchart is really showing it at its full complexity, if not overstating it. The most important thing is building the right buildings to make the races like each other, then waiting long enough to be allowed to form a Federation. Make people like each other: that's all you really have to do, and you essentially have two very boring ways to do it. Those options to raise a race's opinion of you are all fairly identical, which is why just putting them all in the same box does the game justice. The influence requirement is really just a "you must devote this much time to this race to get them to join you" barrier, not anything where you have to think too hard about what you're doing. Giving technology to anyone but the Skylaxians and Evucks just makes it take a little longer for the Skylaxians and Evucks to kill them, so is probably a good thing. You certainly never have to worry that your time spent building up the Burlust fleet might cause them to make a play for dominance in the system, as you will never have enough technology to give them to make them a threat to the Skylaxians and the Evucks.

I like it, but it's too strategically simple right now. We need more.

[MaskityMask]

I guess its because I lack imagination when it comes to gameplay mechanics, but can you give me example of how devs could make game more complex? I mean, I get the point of wanting there to be more option to achieve the goal, but if there are more options then one of them will outright turn out to be most superior in long terms...

[GC13]

I think I did a fair job pointing out the direction I'd explore in the patch thread. I do wish I had expounded more on the possibilities inherent in making public opinion an issue, but the post was already getting rather lengthy. There's just so much room for the idea because really, the long-term strategy of a race in such an unsafe situation would be wanting to maximize the productivity of their society, or at least maximizing how much of it they could devote to a war effort.

Wars are pointless if they don't result in territorial change right now, and territorial change means genocide. Not only should outposts be the primary objectives in war, but a war should weaken a race more long-term. Right now fleets are raised, lost, and re-raised with abandon; fleets are so easy for races to build that the devs had to put a hard cap in, beyond which the AI chivalrously refuses to build. We're supposed to be the dark mastermind, right? What's the point of manipulating a race into a pointless war if they'll just bounce right back from it, if it doesn't make them stronger?

I think a lot of the hostile options should be looked at too. Steal tech should probably not be a combat mission, maybe not even lose you influence with the target race (it certainly shouldn't lose you with anyone else), and just keep the escalating cost (probably a higher base cost) to keep it from being abused. Sabotage shouldn't have an influence cost on it. Really there's a reason there's no achievement for playing the game without using any hostile acts: I rarely find them useful as-is.

I could go on and on, I'm sure, but at its most basic level the player needs at least one part of the game where they have the ability to perceive a need and go out and meet it using one of many tools; getting Federation members isn't perceiving a need, it's a win condition.

[MaskityMask]

Hmm, I agree about wars <_< Apparently there are supposed to be minorities, refugees, prisoners and resistance fighters, but I've never seen those. Race just dies when planet is conquered unless pirates exit. Hell, I've never succeeded having my smuggled resistance fighters win planet back.. War should certainly be less binary, especially if skylaxians win. I mean, I just don't see those guys wiping out losing species just because, burlust and thoraxians maybe, but not skylaxians.

It does feel like war doesn't weaken the races at all, the race with multiple planets will pretty much conquer the system unless one of other races is already far more powerful than them and can just curbstomp them to genocide.